Matter.

[Major]

I know nothing about New Age or Gnostics (except that they alliterate); but since that Rabbit is out of the hole, maybe you can help me understand this.

I have not seen Matrix, but I can understand that in science fiction a man or in my case a girl can become energy. I'm willing to be more specific and say that a girl's matter may become energy. That is ninth grade physics. I learned that last year in school.

Maybe I should not say that a girl may become energy because a girl's matter is not the girl. She still exists after her matter has become worms. That is Christianity.

Is there a force to tap? I don't want to say no. Many unlikely events may be possible.

The Star Wars movie is full of nonsense. Last year my physics teacher made us watch the movie. She asked us to make a list of the nonsense. The nature of whatever energy or information may be related to "the force" was not on her list. I think that from a scientific point of view any force may become a source of energy and a change in a force may be used to transmit information.

When Obi Wan Kenobi said that he felt a change in the force, that was fiction; just like HG Wells' journey to the Moon was fiction. Neither are nonsense. Both are possible.

I hope I have not said anything that is inappropriate. If any of this is Gnosticism, I'm going to be really surprised.

Surprise!

A Gnostic is one who has gnosis (a Greek word for “knowledge”) — a visionary or mystical “secret knowledge” capable of joining the human being to the divine mystery. Gnostics, the Pope remarked, and he is absolutely correct, distort God's word “in the name of a profound knowledge of God.”

The Gnostic worldview is dualistic. Reality consists of two irreducible elements: one good, the spiritual world (the realm of light); and the other evil, matter (the realm of darkness). Two supreme powers or gods oppose each other — the unknowable and inef-fable god, from whom a series of lesser divinities emanated, and the evil god, or demiurge, who produced the universe from foul matter and possesses it with his evil demons.

Star Wars is the clash between the two supreme powers of the universe — “the force” and the “dark side of the force,” which is exploited by the “emperor” (the demiurge) and his demons (Darth Vader, the siths). The Gnostic heroes are the Jedi, who possess the “secret knowledge” of their own spiritual powers; unlike the non-Gnostic, they are able to use “the force” well. Each Jedi has a master, who trains him to acquire this redeeming gnosis. Ben Kenobi, for instance, was for a time the master of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. The greatest spiritual guide in the saga is Yoda, a respected senior member of the Jedi council and a general in the clone wars.

As Christ's followers, we must sort out the good seed from the weeds (cf. Matthew 13:24-30). I propose a distinction between the Gnostic values and its philosophy. Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/gnosticism_and_the_struggle_for_the_worlds_soul/#ixzz3D6b3fK1k

 

[Ghid]

Surprise!

A Gnostic is one who has gnosis (a Greek word for “knowledge”) — a visionary or mystical “secret knowledge” capable of joining the human being to the divine mystery. Gnostics, the Pope remarked, and he is absolutely correct, distort God's word “in the name of a profound knowledge of God.”

The Gnostic worldview is dualistic. Reality consists of two irreducible elements: one good, the spiritual world (the realm of light); and the other evil, matter (the realm of darkness). Two supreme powers or gods oppose each other — the unknowable and inef-fable god, from whom a series of lesser divinities emanated, and the evil god, or demiurge, who produced the universe from foul matter and possesses it with his evil demons.

Star Wars is the clash between the two supreme powers of the universe — “the force” and the “dark side of the force,” which is exploited by the “emperor” (the demiurge) and his demons (Darth Vader, the siths). The Gnostic heroes are the Jedi, who possess the “secret knowledge” of their own spiritual powers; unlike the non-Gnostic, they are able to use “the force” well. Each Jedi has a master, who trains him to acquire this redeeming gnosis. Ben Kenobi, for instance, was for a time the master of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. The greatest spiritual guide in the saga is Yoda, a respected senior member of the Jedi council and a general in the clone wars.

As Christ's followers, we must sort out the good seed from the weeds (cf. Matthew 13:24-30). I propose a distinction between the Gnostic values and its philosophy. Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/gnosticism_and_the_struggle_for_the_worlds_soul/#ixzz3D6b3fK1k

Are you saying that the movie, Star Wars, offers an example of how "Some believe that materials, items, matter, anything that isn't spiritual, is wrong because it can lead to idolatry, materialism, etc?"

I don't see the connection.

 

[calvin]

Surprise!

The greatest spiritual guide in the saga is Yoda, a respected senior member of the Jedi council and a general in the clone wars.

I wouldn't go that far major, I used to drive a toyoda, it wasn't a bad car, but I have had better.
G'night all

 

[Major]

I wouldn't go that far major, I used to drive a toyoda, it wasn't a bad car, but I have had better.
G'night all

LOL.........You are the man calvin!

 

[Major]

Are you saying that the movie, Star Wars, offers an example of how "Some believe that materials, items, matter, anything that isn't spiritual, is wrong because it can lead to idolatry, materialism, etc?"

I don't see the connection.

Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

You see, the Jedi Knights believed in their prophecy of the "chosen one", putting all of their faith in a messianic king that would bring balance to the force. This was to be their undoing. It demonstrates that misinterpreted prophecy and foolish projections can fool even the elect.

 

[Major]

Are you saying that the movie, Star Wars, offers an example of how "Some believe that materials, items, matter, anything that isn't spiritual, is wrong because it can lead to idolatry, materialism, etc?"

I don't see the connection.

I didn't say that. Notice, I'm not saying Star Wars or Harry Potter is the danger. They provide us with good lessons and fine entertainment. They are just two signs of the power of the real enemy: Gnosticism.

 

[Big Moose]

I think that we are matter because we have mass. The amount of mass is the amount of matter, and the amount of mass is an amount of energy. And Homer Simpson is likely correct that as long as we are matter, it does not matter because we are mostly empty space. And likely if I became energy, I would no longer be me, so I would no longer matter, and Homer would again be correct.

If it matters that we have mass, then do we matter more if we increase our mass? Therefore, I eat more so I will matter more.

The matter at hand is, is it mind over matter? To get to the heart of the matter, if I am out of my mind, then my matter is in control, but that is a matter of opinion.

Does it matter if I go to mass?

Do you mind if I stop, because I don't have the energy for this anymore.

 

[Ghid]

If it matters that we have mass, then do we matter more if we increase our mass? Therefore, I eat more so I will matter more.

The matter at hand is, is it mind over matter? To get to the heart of the matter, if I am out of my mind, then my matter is in control, but that is a matter of opinion.

Does it matter if I go to mass?

Do you mind if I stop, because I don't have the energy for this anymore.

I nominate you for the Homer Simpson award.

The matter at hand must be whether or not people believe that material things are by nature evil or whether they believe in the idea that there exists secret intuitive knowledge which is the ultimate truth.

Both seem like really nutty ideas to me. If there is any ultimate knowledge it would be things like:

There is a God, and I am not he.

The speed of light is constant.

Every woman should own a wrench, screwdriver, and hammer.

Things like that, and none of it is secret.

 

[Brother Paul]

Matter matters otherwise God would not have created it...it is His universe, His will be done!

 

[Ghid]

Matter matters otherwise God would not have created it...it is His universe, His will be done!

That is the first thing I wondered when I first read this thread. His creation exists. How we use it makes it good or bad or both. How do I know if an action is good or bad?

Last year, my English Class read about the Holocaust, which was somewhat confusing because in Spanish the word, holocausto, means burnt offering.

Job "ofrecía holocaustos conforme al número de todos ellos ..."

Job "offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all ..."

After reading about the Holocaust, we went to the Museum of Tolerance, which is mostly about the Hazis and how they offered to their god an offering of twelve million people during World War Two.

So when the museum guide said, "holocaust," I thought how the Nazi god had demanded the "burnt offering" of twelve million Jews. With guns and gas chambers, Hitler met fifty percent of his goal. He killed six million Jews, and another six million of other people.

The museum promotes the solgan, "Never Again."

Since World War Two, the world has had more never-again moments. Samantha Power, The United States Ambassador to the United Nations wrote a book, A Problem from Hell, about never again, see video.

Another book, Terror in the Name of God, See Video, by Jessica Stearn.

Sometimes the videos don't work. I don't know why. The books have examples of how different people apply the ideas of good and bad.

 

[Ghid]

That is the first thing I wondered when I first read this thread. His creation exists. How we use it makes it good or bad or both. How do I know if an action is good or bad?

Last year, my English Class read about the Holocaust, which was somewhat confusing because in Spanish the word, holocausto, means burnt offering.

Job "ofrecía holocaustos conforme al número de todos ellos ..."

Job "offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all ..."

After reading about the Holocaust, we went to the Museum of Tolerance, which is mostly about the Hazis and how they offered to their god an offering of twelve million people during World War Two.

So when the museum guide said, "holocaust," I thought how the Nazi god had demanded the "burnt offering" of twelve million Jews. With guns and gas chambers, Hitler met fifty percent of his goal. He killed six million Jews, and another six million of other people.

The museum promotes the solgan, "Never Again."

Since World War Two, the world has had more never-again moments. Samantha Power, The United States Ambassador to the United Nations wrote a book, A Problem from Hell, about never again, see video.

Another book, Terror in the Name of God, See Video, by Jessica Stearn.

Sometimes the videos don't work. I don't know why. The books have examples of how different people apply the ideas of good and bad.

Another source for Terror in the Name of God

 

[aha]

Aha...actually Augustine was way into free will and was misinterpreted by later theologians because of his discourse with Pelagius. In On Grace and Free Will he takes issue with those who mistook this debate. In His Intro he says, "There are some persons who suppose that the freedom of the will is denied whenever God's grace is maintained, and who on their side defend their liberty of will so peremptorily as to deny the grace of God. " In the treatise as it unfolds we see both these extremes were opposed to what he was expressing. In the first group we see what became the Calvinists and in the 2nd what became hyper-Arminian...one makes the grace so irresistable that free will is not an option, the other makes it seem like salvation really depends on man (on his decision to accept God). But the truth is (if you read it all) that because we have sinned (and all have) God is still under no OBLIGATION to save even if man were to seek to do good and turn to Him. Salvation is still totally of God but he emphasizes that we must accept Christ and then strive to live a holy life. He uses over 23 New Testament quotes to defend the free will part of the process. God initiates (through the Spirit or the word, preached or studied) but we must rightly respond.

Everything God created was good but when man acts as his own lord disregarding what God's will is and does what is right in his own eyes, then like Satan's rebellion evil ensues, and then there are natural things (like volcanoes and earthquakes, which are not evil but man judges them so.

Thanks for the answer, reading more on the history Gnosticism , yes, there is indeed a connection with "freewill" and age-old question of man on regarding "evil"...

 

[aha]

What is the difference between adapted and promoted? Just so that we are on he same page.

In his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II writes:
"A separate issue is the return of ancient Gnostic ideas under the guise of the so-called New Age. We cannot delude ourselves that this will lead toward a renewal of religion. It is only a new way of practicing Gnosticism — that attitude of the spirit that, in the name of a profound knowledge of God, results in distorting his word and replacing it with purely human words. Gnosticism never completely abandoned the realm of Christianity. Instead, it has always existed side by side with Christianity, sometimes taking the shape of philosophical movement, but more often assuming the characteristics of a religion or para-religion in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian."
(from....http://catholiceducation.org/articles/civilization/cc0130.html).

From that same web site.........
"With the rise of Christianity, ancient esoteric ideas developed into Gnostic syncretism. Thus, in the first centuries A.D., the Apostles and the Church Fathers had to combat several "Christian" Gnostic religious systems, such as those of Cerinthus, Manander, Saturninus, Valentinus, Basilides, Ptolemaeus and the ones contained in the apocryphal gospels: of truth and perfection, and of Judas (Iscariot), Philip and Thomas.
The third-century dualist Manichaean church or religion spread from Persia throughout the Middle East, China, southern Europe and northern Africa, where the young Augustine temporarily became a convert."

Personally I always was taught that Gnosticism was a man-made self-centered philosophy — a kind of "monologue" which man divinizes himself and fails in the attempt.

The Christian revelation is a God-made gift — "dialogue" of love that God establishes with man for eternal life through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

To discern, which is really needed today, what is Christian from what is not, we can depend on the Bible IMO.

2 John 4:2-3................
"By this you know the spirit of God: Every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world".

After reading more on Gnosticism, I found the post very insightful...

As I read more: it evolves: it seems it is no longer/ or more of a question of dualism: of good and evil, of physical and non-physical…

I seems it is more of man’s search for salvation by merely having knowledge without God….

Like an Aristotelian philosophy expounding on virtues, justice, … without God…
An Atheist expounding on the healthiness of forgiveness, of having trust and hope with humanity, with one another… without God…
A community leader expounding on faithfulness of marriage between two people… without God…
A nation leader expounding on cooperation, unity, understanding, tolerance between nations…, without God….

They are bound to fail….or they can keep lying to themselves that they are achieving something…

John 15:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

 

[Ghid]

As Christ's followers, we must sort out the good seed from the weeds (cf. Matthew 13:24-30). I propose a distinction between the Gnostic values and its philosophy. Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/gnosticism_and_the_struggle_for_the_worlds_soul/#ixzz3D6b3fK1k

Okay, I read the article. I can understand (sort of) how Star Wars and Harry Potter promote the idea that secret knowledge controls the universe. At first, or maybe second, I thought about how my relatives make up the entire spectrum from Atheist, Baptist, Buddhist, Communist, Confusion, Deist, Environmentalist, Greek Orthodox, Hindu, Hipsters, Jewish, Mormon, Native American to Yoruban. Hipsters are the most fun. Sorry no Zoroastrians, and especially no Gnostics.

(Hipsters are people who read the Racing Form. Some of us learned to read by reading the Form.)

Then I thought about how we have a few crazy fruit cakes who accept various varieties of conspiracy theories. They don't call themselves Gnostics, but some of them believe (possibly drug induced) theories about how secret organizations run the world. Maybe they are closet Gnostics.

But so what? Can they be any real threat?

Surely Islam and Buddhism are the real competitors.

 

[Big Moose]

Maybe a better film reference analogy might be Transformers. The Allspark is God's essence and small "sparks" from the Allspark are what cause us to live and cause all life to exist. So when we die, that spark leaves our body. What energy is in our body after we die? Potential energy could be said to exist, but something definitely leaves an entity when it dies.
So this analogy would therefore posit a notion that God has put in all living things an extremely small part of himself, in a way of a sacrifice. Depending on what amount of spark, or kind of spark, could explain why we are made in His image. "Spark" connotes an electrical essence and does fit with molecular level elements, protons and electrons, and magnetic fields and possibly gravity.
It is just an analogy for us simpletons to begin an understanding, though.

 

[Major]

Okay, I read the article. I can understand (sort of) how Star Wars and Harry Potter promote the idea that secret knowledge controls the universe. At first, or maybe second, I thought about how my relatives make up the entire spectrum from Atheist, Baptist, Buddhist, Communist, Confusion, Deist, Environmentalist, Greek Orthodox, Hindu, Hipsters, Jewish, Mormon, Native American to Yoruban. Hipsters are the most fun. Sorry no Zoroastrians, and especially no Gnostics.

(Hipsters are people who read the Racing Form. Some of us learned to read by reading the Form.)

Then I thought about how we have a few crazy fruit cakes who accept various varieties of conspiracy theories. They don't call themselves Gnostics, but some of them believe (possibly drug induced) theories about how secret organizations run the world. Maybe they are closet Gnostics.

But so what? Can they be any real threat?

Surely Islam and Buddhism are the real competitors.

Surely you are correct. The radical Muslim's who follow the ideology of killing innocent people in the name of religion are a tremendous threat to life and limb. The Gnostic belief however is one that undermines Christianity so subtlety that it is almost none detectable and it seeks to ruin the eternal soul.

Be totally honest. Had you even given this any thought at all before reading some of the stuff on this site? Un-detectable! One must be very spiritually discerned to see it taking place.

 

[Major]

Maybe a better film reference analogy might be Transformers. The Allspark is God's essence and small "sparks" from the Allspark are what cause us to live and cause all life to exist. So when we die, that spark leaves our body. What energy is in our body after we die? Potential energy could be said to exist, but something definitely leaves an entity when it dies.
So this analogy would therefore posit a notion that God has put in all living things an extremely small part of himself, in a way of a sacrifice. Depending on what amount of spark, or kind of spark, could explain why we are made in His image. "Spark" connotes an electrical essence and does fit with molecular level elements, protons and electrons, and magnetic fields and possibly gravity.
It is just an analogy for us simpletons to begin an understanding, though.

Not at all my brother! That is an excellent observation and example!

Here is another one we probably have never thought about. God's character is also Gnostically depicted in the film 300. In this movie, the protagonist—Leonidas—is the Lucifer character. The antagonist—Artaxerses—is the God character, and is actually called "king of kings and lord of lords." But he is power-hungry, and also has the characteristics of Satan.

 

[Major]

Maybe a better film reference analogy might be Transformers. The Allspark is God's essence and small "sparks" from the Allspark are what cause us to live and cause all life to exist. So when we die, that spark leaves our body. What energy is in our body after we die? Potential energy could be said to exist, but something definitely leaves an entity when it dies.
So this analogy would therefore posit a notion that God has put in all living things an extremely small part of himself, in a way of a sacrifice. Depending on what amount of spark, or kind of spark, could explain why we are made in His image. "Spark" connotes an electrical essence and does fit with molecular level elements, protons and electrons, and magnetic fields and possibly gravity.
It is just an analogy for us simpletons to begin an understanding, though.

Not at all my brother! That is an excellent observation and example!

After reading more on Gnosticism, I found the post very insightful...

As I read more: it evolves: it seems it is no longer/ or more of a question of dualism: of good and evil, of physical and non-physical…

I seems it is more of man’s search for salvation by merely having knowledge without God….

Like an Aristotelian philosophy expounding on virtues, justice, … without God…
An Atheist expounding on the healthiness of forgiveness, of having trust and hope with humanity, with one another… without God…
A community leader expounding on faithfulness of marriage between two people… without God…
A nation leader expounding on cooperation, unity, understanding, tolerance between nations…, without God….

They are bound to fail….or they can keep lying to themselves that they are achieving something…

John 15:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

You are very very right!!!

Many, many nominal Christians, even those who attend Church, do not read the Bible. Because of that they have not come to know Christ in a personal way. And so they remain confused about the true message of Jesus Christ as set forth in the Holy Scriptures. They are unclear about what it all means. They have not been shown who Christ really is or could be in their lives. Nor have they been shown or allowed themselves to be convinced that they can invite Him into their hearts and lives to be their personal Savior, Lord, and King. And so they are kept from truly knowing Him.

But the Word of God is not bound. Our Savior speaks to us through the Bible. And He whispers to us by a still, small voice, even the inner prompting of the His Holy Spirit. He desires to have a vital and real personal relationship with a people who will become His Elect and take Him at His Word. This is the simple wonderful reality of the God of our salvation. God never made our salvation very hard. What would be the point of making salvation hard to get????

But when the gnostic religious mist rolls in, this simple Gospel message is soon obscured. Our worship and our personal fellowship with God of the Bible is pushed aside. This message of a wonderful Life in Christ is replaced by impersonal gnostic religious rituals. In the ensuing fog of disinformation the man in the pew is left unsure about God. Quite understandably he thinks that it is normal to be confused. He thinks everyone is just like him!!!

People left like this eventually despair that they will ever get to know God and they think that God is unknowable. Sound familiar???
That is the Gnostic thought!! Then in the confusing deception of religion they come to believe that God is obscure, distant, and disinterested in them. And our teenagers, and our grand children hearing a watered down Christianity, think Christianity is boring and of no relevance to them.

That then gives them the excuse to "wander away" from God and the church and before we even know it, they are completely estranged from the God who died to set them free. They have no desire to go to church, serve the Lord Jesus or even talk about Him.

 

[Ghid]

Surely you are correct. The radical Muslim's who follow the ideology of killing innocent people in the name of religion are a tremendous threat to life and limb. The Gnostic belief however is one that undermines Christianity so subtlety that it is almost none detectable and it seeks to ruin the eternal soul.

Be totally honest. Had you even given this any thought at all before reading some of the stuff on this site? Un-detectable! One must be very spiritually discerned to see it taking place.

When I said that Islam and Buddhism compete with Christianity, I did not mean that terrorists threaten Christianity any more than they threaten any other religion. I meant that Islam has a higher growth rate, and Buddhism could have more members. The official number for Buddhists is much less than Christianity, but Chinese people practice a religion which seems Buddhist to me. Chinese is likely the largest ethnic group on Earth. If they are added to the Buddhist population, Buddhism could be the largest.

Islam and Buddhism are organized religions. The Gnostics, if I understand, may have Gnostic attitudes, but they don't know that they are Gnostics.

And yes, you are correct. Before I read this thread, I knew nothing of Gnostics, except that it might have been a seventh grade vocabulary word on a 3x5 card.

Gnostic - member of a first century religion, which competed with Christianity.

Not exactly in depth knowledge, so I really should not have an opinion.

 

[agua]

I nominate you for the Homer Simpson award.

The matter at hand must be whether or not people believe that material things are by nature evil or whether they believe in the idea that there exists secret intuitive knowledge which is the ultimate truth.

Both seem like really nutty ideas to me. If there is any ultimate knowledge it would be things like:

There is a God, and I am not he.

The speed of light is constant.

Every woman should own a wrench, screwdriver, and hammer.

Things like that, and none of it is secret.

....or whether they believe in the idea that there exists secret intuitive knowledge which is the ultimate truth.

Sounds like Masonry to me.