Matter.

[Cosmicwaffle]

Ecclesiates 9:7-9
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Maybe their influence gives rise or contributes to the idea that Christ will not physically return but only spiritually? What do you guys think? Could this have affected the end times thoughts? I know JWs and others think the "return" (second advent) has already occurred....is this what you mean?

That's not what I meant, but I really kept the subject open ended, so that's worth getting into too.
I was really only bringing up a very broad yet simple subject of Christianity and matter. Most Christians who know about Gnosticism and what New Age really is know it's something not to get into, but I've also noticed a strange contradiction from some of them -- and when I say some of them, at least a few people that attend my sister's church. Maybe I should have begun with a bit more context.

At my sister's and her husband's get-together at their house, I had a discussion with a friend of theirs and he asked me what a Sacramental was. I explained and used items as examples and showed him examples. He said, very kindly, that he thinks when we put emphasis on the physical, it becomes idolatry. I asked him if his church has any crosses or if they ever fold their hands in prayer. He said yes, and I explained that those are great examples of sacramentals -- physicals that draw us in to God. He shrugged and said "but not too much." meaning only a few things, but not smorgasbord of things.

The discussion was very confusing to me. He may have meant to say something that I would have agreed with, but I wasn't quite clear. I couldn't tell if he was talking about materialism (which I don't think he was), items that he doesn't approve of (as many Christians don't think Holy Water is valid), or having 15 crosses vs. 1 cross as decoration. It was extremely vague, and I suspect he kept it vague because he didn't want to start an argument.

This isn't the first time I've heard this sort of sentiment, but it was the most recent, albeit with less clarity.

 

[Ghid]

It's funny but science has proven that we're not "matter" any more, but congealed energy. Every time they zoom in more and more it just keeps showing more and more energy until literally what's left is just "wisps of energy". The energy of another object repels our energy so we can't walk through walls, much the same way a positive and negative side of a magnet repels. The more they study us we're just transferred energy. Just what Einstein said. If "matter" moves at the speed of light, it turns to pure energy. Imagine what happens when it travels at the speed of thought!

I think that we are matter because we have mass. The amount of mass is the amount of matter, and the amount of mass is an amount of energy. And Homer Simpson is likely correct that as long as we are matter, it does not matter because we are mostly empty space. And likely if I became energy, I would no longer be me, so I would no longer matter, and Homer would again be correct.

 

[aha]

Revelation 21:4King James Version (KJV)
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Brother Paul]

That's not what I meant, but I really kept the subject open ended, so that's worth getting into too.
I was really only bringing up a very broad yet simple subject of Christianity and matter. Most Christians who know about Gnosticism and what New Age really is know it's something not to get into, but I've also noticed a strange contradiction from some of them -- and when I say some of them, at least a few people that attend my sister's church. Maybe I should have begun with a bit more context.

At my sister's and her husband's get-together at their house, I had a discussion with a friend of theirs and he asked me what a Sacramental was. I explained and used items as examples and showed him examples. He said, very kindly, that he thinks when we put emphasis on the physical, it becomes idolatry. I asked him if his church has any crosses or if they ever fold their hands in prayer. He said yes, and I explained that those are great examples of sacramentals -- physicals that draw us in to God. He shrugged and said "but not too much." meaning only a few things, but not smorgasbord of things.

The discussion was very confusing to me. He may have meant to say something that I would have agreed with, but I wasn't quite clear. I couldn't tell if he was talking about materialism (which I don't think he was), items that he doesn't approve of (as many Christians don't think Holy Water is valid), or having 15 crosses vs. 1 cross as decoration. It was extremely vague, and I suspect he kept it vague because he didn't want to start an argument.

This isn't the first time I've heard this sort of sentiment, but it was the most recent, albeit with less clarity.

Blessed are those who believe and have not seen...

It is not necessary to "see" but I find nothing wrong with symbols or depictions of the Holy (I think they are wonderful). I think his "but not too much" comment also has merit however. For example, I have an Ethiopian friend who can not walk past a picture of Mary without genuflecting and kissing the picture...he thinks it disrespectful to Mary that others do not genuflect and kiss the image...I understand loving Mary but this association with false images is really a cultural norm taught to him since youth (false as in that is not what she actually looked like)...so SOMETIMES the symbols or physicals can take on a somewhat idolatrous nature for some...the real true Mary (the blessed virgin chosen from among all women) would be appalled if someone fell at her feet or bowed down to her in worship (she always pointed only to her son and we do not need her to because we can boldly enter into the throne room to obtain mercy in our need)...

The idea of Holy Water or Holy Oil is just the setting apart those elements (with thanks toward God) for His purposes and use...He makes it Holy and He attaches His actions through the use of it (though the elements themselves have no intrinsic power)

Any thoughts or rebuttal?

In His love

brother Paul

 

[aha]

That philosophy is Gnosticism and was partially adapted by Roman Catholicism through Augustine...in gnosticism spirit = good and matter = evil

Anything "material" including the body is considered evil...but when God Formed the man and created the Universe He said it was good...

brother Paul

it will be first time for me to look into more on what Gnosticism is about...
although if that is the premise: spirit = good and matter = evil

thus, we need to get Augustine definition of what is "evil" then...
as I look for a description of his definition: " All realities (entia) are in themselves good; they produce bad results only incidentally; and consequently the ultimate cause of evil is fundamentally good, as well as the objects in which evil is found."

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Blessed are those who believe and have not seen...

It is not necessary to "see" but I find nothing wrong with symbols or depictions of the Holy (I think they are wonderful). I think his "but not too much" comment also has merit however. For example, I have an Ethiopian friend who can not walk past a picture of Mary without genuflecting and kissing the picture...he thinks it disrespectful to Mary that others do not genuflect and kiss the image...I understand loving Mary but this association with false images is really a cultural norm taught to him since youth (false as in that is not what she actually looked like)...so SOMETIMES the symbols or physicals can take on a somewhat idolatrous nature for some...the real true Mary (the blessed virgin chosen from among all women) would be appalled if someone fell at her feet or bowed down to her in worship (she always pointed only to her son and we do not need her to because we can boldly enter into the throne room to obtain mercy in our need)...

The idea of Holy Water or Holy Oil is just the setting apart those elements (with thanks toward God) for His purposes and use...He makes it Holy and He attaches His actions through the use of it (though the elements themselves have no intrinsic power)

Any thoughts or rebuttal?

In His love

brother Paul

Well, of course I don't know your Ethiopian friend, what he believes, and what he practices other than what you described.

I will say (and I sure hope this doesn't become a new discussion or argument), while of course worshiping Mary is absolutely wrong, I also respond to images of Mary since she is the mother of Our Lord. Most of us keep pictures of loved ones to remind us of them and honor them. I also think back to soldiers who may keep wallet-sized pictures of their wives or girlfriends and kiss them on the battlefield. Not worship of course, but a moment of honoring them and remembering them. This is what I do when it comes to Mary.

Perhaps your friend is worshiping her, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion only because I don't know.

But you did say it right in regards to holy water, holy oil, etc. These are physical items of prayer. There is no power with them alone, but that the power comes from God.

But also, I'm not sure that is entirely what we're talking about either...perhaps partly. But the notion that items are bad just because they are physical. If it's suggesting that if it is physical it could lead to idolatry, then that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And it would also forget that non-physical things can be worshiped too, like false Gods, our own minds, etc.

 

[Major]

Are we talking about gnosticism and catholics or just gnosticism? IMO, we have slightly (understatement) deviated from OP

Agreed!

 

[Major]

Maybe their influence gives rise or contributes to the idea that Christ will not physically return but only spiritually? What do you guys think? Could this have affected the end times thoughts? I know JWs and others think the "return" (second advent) has already occurred....is this what you mean?

Remember the "Divinchi Code"?

The basic Gnostic myth has many variations, but all of these refer to Aeons, intermediate deific beings who exist between the ultimate, True God and ourselves. They, together with the True God, comprise the realm of Fullness (Pleroma) wherein the potency of divinity operates fully. The Fullness stands in contrast to our existential state, which in comparison may be called emptiness.

One of the aeonial beings who bears the name Sophia (“Wisdom”) is of great importance to the Gnostic world view. Sophia was the heroin in the book and movie. Gnosticism says that in the course of her journeyings, Sophia came to emanate from her own being a flawed consciousness, a being who became the creator of the material and psychic cosmos, all of which he created in the image of his own flaw. This being, unaware of his origins, imagined himself to be the ultimate and absolute God. Since he took the already existing divine essence and fashioned it into various forms, he is also called the Demiurgos or “half-maker” There is an authentic half, a true deific component within creation, but it is not recognized by the half-maker and by his cosmic minions, the Archons or “rulers.(http://www.thechristmyth.com/gnosticism.htm).

If anyone buys that nonsense, I have a bridge in Arizona that I will be glad to sell.

Gnostics and the New Age and Masonic teachings all blend together IMO to form a mystic religion of fancy sounding words that mean nothing.

 

[Major]

Are we talking about gnosticism and catholics or just gnosticism? IMO, we have slightly (understatement) deviated from OP

Slightely????

 

[Glomung]

It was extremely vague, and I suspect he kept it vague because he didn't want to start an argument.

People often keep discussions vague because they like to talk, but have no idea what they are talking about,
and don't want to make it overly obvious.

 

[Major]

I think that we are matter because we have mass. The amount of mass is the amount of matter, and the amount of mass is an amount of energy. And Homer Simpson is likely correct that as long as we are matter, it does not matter because we are mostly empty space. And likely if I became energy, I would no longer be me, so I would no longer matter, and Homer would again be correct.

To show you how deep the rabbit hole goes on Gnostic thinking and what you just said......remember the movie "Matrix".
Man became energy!!! Man was a battery used for energy. Mans matter was used as an energy source. It is amazing how many Hollywood productions incorporate the Gnostic thought into movies that subliminally corrupt our minds.

Think about Star Wars......Is there really a "force" that we can tap into??? That is New Age thought, but its roots are in the Gnostic teaching.

 

[Brother Paul]

it will be first time for me to look into more on what Gnosticism is about...
although if that is the premise: spirit = good and matter = evil

thus, we need to get Augustine definition of what is "evil" then...
as I look for a description of his definition: " All realities (entia) are in themselves good; they produce bad results only incidentally; and consequently the ultimate cause of evil is fundamentally good, as well as the objects in which evil is found."

Aha...actually Augustine was way into free will and was misinterpreted by later theologians because of his discourse with Pelagius. In On Grace and Free Will he takes issue with those who mistook this debate. In His Intro he says, "There are some persons who suppose that the freedom of the will is denied whenever God's grace is maintained, and who on their side defend their liberty of will so peremptorily as to deny the grace of God. " In the treatise as it unfolds we see both these extremes were opposed to what he was expressing. In the first group we see what became the Calvinists and in the 2nd what became hyper-Arminian...one makes the grace so irresistable that free will is not an option, the other makes it seem like salvation really depends on man (on his decision to accept God). But the truth is (if you read it all) that because we have sinned (and all have) God is still under no OBLIGATION to save even if man were to seek to do good and turn to Him. Salvation is still totally of God but he emphasizes that we must accept Christ and then strive to live a holy life. He uses over 23 New Testament quotes to defend the free will part of the process. God initiates (through the Spirit or the word, preached or studied) but we must rightly respond.

Everything God created was good but when man acts as his own lord disregarding what God's will is and does what is right in his own eyes, then like Satan's rebellion evil ensues, and then there are natural things (like volcanoes and earthquakes, which are not evil but man judges them so.

 

[THALLON]

Maybe their influence gives rise or contributes to the idea that Christ will not physically return but only spiritually? What do you guys think? Could this have affected the end times thoughts? I know JWs and others think the "return" (second advent) has already occurred....is this what you mean?

I myself believe Jesus has a 7 year mission,
the first 3 1/2 years as savior
the second 3 1/2 years as Messiah warrior,
in the second when He appears the rapture occurs then He descends physically upon the mount of olives,
then he causes the mount to crack
then he flys about destroying enemies in Israel, [I think its in micah?]
then he meets with the 144,000,
Israel is reorganised and war is waged, 7 appointed to wage war on Assyria,
then He leads a final battle against the beast.
Then nations heads are brought before him and executed,
and their nations are re organised.
The 144,000 may replace governments or they may be overseers of nations.
The larger nations USA, china, india, Russia, EU will probably all be dissolved into smaller states. but that's just my thinking.

 

[Ghid]

To show you how deep the rabbit hole goes on Gnostic thinking and what you just said......remember the movie "Matrix".
Man became energy!!! Man was a battery used for energy. Mans matter was used as an energy source. It is amazing how many Hollywood productions incorporate the Gnostic thought into movies that subliminally corrupt our minds.

Think about Star Wars......Is there really a "force" that we can tap into??? That is New Age thought, but its roots are in the Gnostic teaching.

I know nothing about New Age or Gnostics (except that they alliterate); but since that Rabbit is out of the hole, maybe you can help me understand this.

I have not seen Matrix, but I can understand that in science fiction a man or in my case a girl can become energy. I'm willing to be more specific and say that a girl's matter may become energy. That is ninth grade physics. I learned that last year in school.

Maybe I should not say that a girl may become energy because a girl's matter is not the girl. She still exists after her matter has become worms. That is Christianity.

Is there a force to tap? I don't want to say no. Many unlikely events may be possible.

The Star Wars movie is full of nonsense. Last year my physics teacher made us watch the movie. She asked us to make a list of the nonsense. The nature of whatever energy or information may be related to "the force" was not on her list. I think that from a scientific point of view any force may become a source of energy and a change in a force may be used to transmit information.

When Obi Wan Kenobi said that he felt a change in the force, that was fiction; just like HG Wells' journey to the Moon was fiction. Neither are nonsense. Both are possible.

I hope I have not said anything that is inappropriate. If any of this is Gnosticism, I'm going to be really surprised.

 

[THALLON]

let me say this,
I you see a man with no legs is he less,
okay suppose he has no legs, arms, ears, is he less,
what about if we remove his whole body from the neck down and put him on life support machines, he is still a man and still there,
okay, off with his skin, hair, skull so there is just a brain,
well the man is still there.
A lot of the brain is just for the body, so lets remove all the un necessary tissue used to support the body, so we are only left with the man.
Lets look at sensors, eyes ears touch taste smell. did you know your skin has neurons like your brain.
But really how big is the human being inside the brain? a marble size?
Our physical body is a massive biological machine being driven by a tiny little alien jelly fish.
On your skin lives lots of little micro monsters, how do they function at such a small scale.
At some point in the scale the biological and chemical is controlled by energy: magnetic, kenetic, charged, negative positive in a constellation
of tiny stars within us.
Everything, stone, flesh, air, tables, chairs, water is composed of a design pattern in the atoms/electrons/protons,
in a sense that energy pattern is the key to everything, Jesus could walk on water how did peter walk on it unless it took on a solid nature, but then he doubted and it lost cohesion because he was no longer connected.
Most of us think we move through empty air, but air is hydrogen and oxygen and other elements, if you could you could suck that energy in
and use it to infuse the matrix pattern of something, for example multiply a loaf of bread or fish.
Look at your hand,
it has skin, cells, blood, bone, calcium, elements, but without the energy at the very base it would dissolve into nothing.
That energy could be manipulated to make your finger nails grow long in seconds.
So is there a star wars force, yes and no, the force is there as a blanket of dark energy holding everything together,
but I think God infuses everything, I mean everything,
imagine the whole universe is not stars and galaxies but in God's brain.
Imagine you don't really have specific elements like limbs or taste or sight etc to your body, but one sense that
is forced into these areas....
now I forgot what the subject was,
sorry.

 

[Major]

I myself believe Jesus has a 7 year mission,
the first 3 1/2 years as savior
the second 3 1/2 years as Messiah warrior,
in the second when He appears the rapture occurs then He descends physically upon the mount of olives,
then he causes the mount to crack
then he flys about destroying enemies in Israel, [I think its in micah?]
then he meets with the 144,000,
Israel is reorganised and war is waged, 7 appointed to wage war on Assyria,
then He leads a final battle against the beast.
Then nations heads are brought before him and executed,
and their nations are re organised.
The 144,000 may replace governments or they may be overseers of nations.
The larger nations USA, china, india, Russia, EU will probably all be dissolved into smaller states. but that's just my thinking.

I have to disagree with your thinking and ask the Lord to bless you my brother, but we are way off course here now.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Let's get back on track.

 

[Major]

I know nothing about New Age or Gnostics (except that they alliterate); but since that Rabbit is out of the hole, maybe you can help me understand this.

I have not seen Matrix, but I can understand that in science fiction a man or in my case a girl can become energy. I'm willing to be more specific and say that a girl's matter may become energy. That is ninth grade physics. I learned that last year in school.

Maybe I should not say that a girl may become energy because a girl's matter is not the girl. She still exists after her matter has become worms. That is Christianity.

Is there a force to tap? I don't want to say no. Many unlikely events may be possible.

The Star Wars movie is full of nonsense. Last year my physics teacher made us watch the movie. She asked us to make a list of the nonsense. The nature of whatever energy or information may be related to "the force" was not on her list. I think that from a scientific point of view any force may become a source of energy and a change in a force may be used to transmit information.

When Obi Wan Kenobi said that he felt a change in the force, that was fiction; just like HG Wells' journey to the Moon was fiction. Neither are nonsense. Both are possible.

I hope I have not said anything that is inappropriate. If any of this is Gnosticism, I'm going to be really surprised.

Gnostism is all about "secret knowledge". If you have now seen the Matrix, rent it and watch it looking for the Gnostic thought that runs all through it. The movie is all about Neo.

Basically....In his conversation with Neo near the end of The Matrix Reloaded, the Architect explains that he is responsible for the creation of the Matrix - does that make him God? Probably not: his character seems closer to that played by the force of evil in Gnosticism. According to gnostic tradition, the material world was actually created by a demiurge (commonly identified with the God of the Old Testament), not the True God of Good who is utterly transcendent and exists far beyond the created world as we understand it. The demiurge in turn leads a cast of Archons, or petty rulers who are the craftsmen of our physical world.

Escape from this world of evil is only accomplished by those who obtain the inner knowledge about the true nature of this reality and the manner in which humans are imprisoned in it and controlled by sinister forces. Those who seek to become awakened and enlightened are aided in their quest by Jesus Christ, sent by God to the world as a bearer of divine enlightenment in order to relieve humanity of its ignorance and lead them to truth and goodness. The savior also comes to save Sophia, the embodiment of wisdom and a lesser being who emanated from God but then later drifted away from him. Sophia is also the name of God in the Divinchi Code book and movie.

The parallels here between Gnosticism and the Matrix films are obvious, with Keanu Reeve's character Neo playing the role of the bearer of enlightenment who is sent to liberate humanity from the place in which the sinister machines have them imprisoned. We also learn from the Oracle, a program within the Matrix and an embodiment of wisdom about the Matrix, that Neo has once again made a "believer" out of her.
(http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_matrix_gnos.htm).

This is the process of gnostic transformation we see in transcendentalism. Holy themes that are true and holy are twisted into powerful yet profane stories for the depraved masses. The true and eternal relationship between God and man has been crafted to be used in the witchcraft of domination, intimidation and manipulation. Using ritual, pageantry, and other showcasing techniques gnostic magical paganism has by this means crept in and inserted itself into established Christian faith and thereby defiled it in many cases. The seduction of Christianity is now well underway in the western nations.

 

[Major]

let me say this,
I you see a man with no legs is he less,
okay suppose he has no legs, arms, ears, is he less,
what about if we remove his whole body from the neck down and put him on life support machines, he is still a man and still there,
okay, off with his skin, hair, skull so there is just a brain,
well the man is still there.
A lot of the brain is just for the body, so lets remove all the un necessary tissue used to support the body, so we are only left with the man.
Lets look at sensors, eyes ears touch taste smell. did you know your skin has neurons like your brain.
But really how big is the human being inside the brain? a marble size?
Our physical body is a massive biological machine being driven by a tiny little alien jelly fish.
On your skin lives lots of little micro monsters, how do they function at such a small scale.
At some point in the scale the biological and chemical is controlled by energy: magnetic, kenetic, charged, negative positive in a constellation
of tiny stars within us.
Everything, stone, flesh, air, tables, chairs, water is composed of a design pattern in the atoms/electrons/protons,
in a sense that energy pattern is the key to everything, Jesus could walk on water how did peter walk on it unless it took on a solid nature, but then he doubted and it lost cohesion because he was no longer connected.
Most of us think we move through empty air, but air is hydrogen and oxygen and other elements, if you could you could suck that energy in
and use it to infuse the matrix pattern of something, for example multiply a loaf of bread or fish.
Look at your hand,
it has skin, cells, blood, bone, calcium, elements, but without the energy at the very base it would dissolve into nothing.
That energy could be manipulated to make your finger nails grow long in seconds.
So is there a star wars force, yes and no, the force is there as a blanket of dark energy holding everything together,
but I think God infuses everything, I mean everything,
imagine the whole universe is not stars and galaxies but in God's brain.
Imagine you don't really have specific elements like limbs or taste or sight etc to your body, but one sense that
is forced into these areas....
now I forgot what the subject was,
sorry.

The focus was on Gnostic teaching and how it affects us today.

Gnosticism still rules among the main flows of faith and culture in the West. Of all English Literature the Arthurian medieval legends charm us far more than any other. They eclipse the classic literature of Roman and Greek mythology, which, lets face it, were getting pretty boring even before Christendom arrived on the scene 2,000 years ago. Where are the Legends of Camelot today? Right in front of our noses. They are in the seductive dream-scapes on the big screen and television. The romance is woven with images of uncovered sexuality, materialistic idolatry and violent blood letting