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Mark 16:9

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by rstrats, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. A poster on another board, the topic of which was questioning the authenticity of the last 12 verses in the book of Mark, wrote that it doesn't really matter because there is no doctrinal teaching in Mark 16:9-20 that cannot be proved elsewhere in agreed Scripture.

    I made the mistake of sticking my nose into the discussion by pointing out that actually there is a statement in verse 9, as the KJV and similar versions have it, that is used for a doctrinal teaching that is to be found nowhere else in Scripture. As the KJV translates it, it is the only place that places the resurrection on the first day of the week. I then suggested that whenever the discussion of seventh day observance versus first day observance comes up, it has generally been my experience that first day proponents many times use the idea of a first day resurrection to justify the change of observance from the seventh day to the first day, and when questioned about the day of resurrection, frequently quote Mark 16:9. The poster came back with: "Quote a published author who has done that."- I have not yet been able to come up with one. Does anyone here know of one?
  2. When you say 'seventh day observance' I am assuming we are talking about the "Sabbath", correct? So you are asking why Christians observe Sunday instead of the Jewish Saturday as the Sabbath observance?

    Whereas God commanded in Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: 10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it." * (Genesis 1, Genesis 2:1-3) * See also Deuteronomy 5:12-15

    Shabbat (Known as Saturday)

    "The Sabbath (or Shabbat, as it is called in Hebrew) is one of the best known and least understood of all Jewish observances. People who do not observe Shabbat think of it as a day filled with stifling restrictions, or as a day of prayer like the Christian Sabbath. But to those who observe Shabbat, it is a precious gift from G-d, a day of great joy eagerly awaited throughout the week, a time when we can set aside all of our weekday concerns and devote ourselves to higher pursuits. In Jewish literature, poetry and music, Shabbat is described as a bride or queen, as in the popular Shabbat hymn Lecha Dodi Likrat Kallah (come, my beloved, to meet the [Sabbath] bride). It is said "more than Israel has kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept Israel." " http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

    The sabbath in the New Testament

    "Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day. (See SUNDAY.)" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm

    How do you feel about John 5:15-19?

    15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
    16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
    17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
    19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
  3. Dirtyrottensinner,

    re: " How do you feel about John 5:15-19?"

    I don't see where John 5:15-19 argues for a change of observance from the seventh day to the first day because of the idea of a first day resurrection, nor supports a first day resurrection with Mark 16:9.
  4. Every day is the Lord's day if we are living right. If you chose to observe Saturday as in Judaism, I don't suppose there is anything wrong wit that. But if you live everyday like the Lord rose yesterday and He's coming back tomorrow, I don't think you can go wrong.

    I need to work on that myself.
  5. Concerning the ending of Mark, there are four different endings that are found among the 5,800 Greek manuscripts. While the KJV (received text) has the last 13 verses the gospel, the two oldest known manuscripts, the Aleph and B, one hudnred of the Armenian, and two oldest Georgian also have it. Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses. Both Eusebius and Jermone attest that this longer reading was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. Justin Martyr was acquianted with the longer reading. The longer reading contains several words that Mark never used in the rest of his gospel and even two expressions that never appear in the known Markan writings. It is pretty certain that the longer ending of Mark was composed by someone other than Mark. The internal evidence displays a very abrupt connection between verses 8 and 9, it is so awkward as to lead one to think that Mark would have never designed it that way. You'll notice "women" is the subject of verse 8, but "Jesus" is the subject of verse 9 virtually without any transition. On the otherhand, the shorter ending of Mark, which is the text of the NASB and other translations is consistent with the rest of the book and much better attested.

    Concerning the Sabbath being on the seventh day of the week, you'll notice that the issuing of the Ten Commandments, in both Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 begin with a preamble. In this introductory paragraph, God said, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery" (20:2). He is obviously addressing Israel, not the New Testament Church. We were never slaves in Egypt, only Israel was. Of the Ten Commandments, nine of them are repeated in the New Testament, four being the anomaly (the keeping of the Sabbath). The Sabbath was described as a sign of a covenant God made with "Israel" (Ezk. 20:12). As circumcision was a sign for the Abrahamic covenant and the rainbow for the Noahic covenant, so the Sabbath was a sign for this particular covenant that God made with Israel--not the New Testament Church. Should we display the emblem of a covenant of which we were not a party? That's like wearing someone else's wedding band. However, Christ rose on a Sunday and, as I read it, the church was born on Pentecost in Acts 2. Pentecost was always celebrated on a Sunday. The offering was to be collected on Sunday (I Cor. 16:1). The church met on a Sunday (Acts 20:7). The "Lord's Day" in Revelation was understood to be Sunday according to some of the earliest church writers. The "Sabbath" has always been, is now, and shall always be Saturday.
    Silk and Brother_Mike_V say Amen and like this.
  6. Excellant work Jack!
    Dirtyrottensinner likes this.
  7. Dirtyrottensinner,

    re: "When you say 'seventh day observance' I am assuming we are talking about the 'Sabbath', correct?"

    That is correct.


    re: " So you are asking why Christians observe Sunday instead of the Jewish Saturday as the Sabbath observance?"

    No. I am only looking for an author as asked for in the OP.
  8. Perhaps someone new looking in will know of an author.
  9. I know of no author who uses Mark 16:9 to argue for the church worshipping on the first day of the week. But the resurrection taking place on the first day isn't only found in Mark 16:9. It is also found in Mt. 28:1; Luke 24:1; and Jn. 19:39. There are references of the disciples worshipping on the first day of the week in Acts 20:7 in Troas. Paul encouraged the believers in Corinth to put aside their offerings and gifts "on the first day of the week" (I Cor. 16:1-2) which would seem kind of ridiculous if the church was observing the Jewish Sabbath as its day of worship.
  10. Jack Williamson,

    re: "But the resurrection taking place on the first day isn't only found in Mark 16:9. It is also found in Mt. 28:1; Luke 24:1; and Jn. 19:39."

    Although Matthew 28:1 and Luke 24:1 mention the first day of the week, they do not say when the resurrection actually took place. And John 19:39 does not mention the first day of the week, much less that the resurrection took place on it.

    re: "There are references of the disciples worshipping on the first day of the week..."

    Actually, as far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. They couldn't have been there for the purpose of recognizing the resurrection because at that point they didn't believe that it had taken place. And nothing is said about a celebration, worship service or day of rest.
    The Acts reference has them together most likely because Paul happened to be in town and he wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The breaking of bread mentioned (even if it were referring to the Lord's Supper and not simply to a meal) had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread daily.
  11. "dirtyrottensinner" what kind of response is this?
  12. There are more mentions, but two are a biblical witness to truth. The idea that the Church is under any part of the law of Moses is just a false teaching and a cursed doctrine.

    Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith:
  13. DirtyRottenSinner used to be the handle (apparently) of someone now posting (Hey DRS that was :))
  14. Kind of confusing about what point is being made? :confused:

    I can be a little slow at times as well:)
  15. First off Mark 16:9 is quoted by Irenaeus in Against Heresies, is found in complete form in the Alexandrinus test (from Alexandria where Mark was sent and finished his gospel), and is also inferred by Cyprian. So being that Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp (a student of St. John) and received his version though him I see no reason to doubt its inclusion...but that seems to be a separate issue...

    Now as for the gathering on the 1st day, all the churches founded by whatever Apostle, taught by those they ordained and placed there to teach "the truth" share this understanding...

    The Didache (14)

    But every Lord's day, gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned.

    Epistle of Barnabas (15:8,9)

    “…“we also worship on the first day, which is the eighth day“… Even so, let us celebrate on the eight day, in which Jesus arose out of death, appeared publicly, and ascended into heaven!

    Ignatius of Antioch taught by John and Peter (Letter to the Magnesians 8 - A.D. 110)

    [T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death.

    Justin Martyr taught by the Palestinian Bishops after James (130) First Apology, chapter 67,

    “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

    Justin also tells us our gathering together that it was on “the first day after the Sabbath, remaining first of all days, called however the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and remaining the first“. His contemporaries elsewhere (see Irenaeus, and Bardasian) refer to “the Lord’s Day of resurrection“ as being the 1st day of the week!

    This unending historical confirmation continues in other Churches through Clement, and Tertullian, up unto around 200 A.D., which again is clearly a century before the birth of Constantine. Then, shortly after this, Cyprian the Bishop of Carthage (around 225 A.D), says that the Lord’s Day upon which Christians worship “is both the first day and the eighth day”!

    It had nothing whatsoever to do with the Sun, neither was it a compromise with pagan practices as a result of pressure from Roman Catholicism, or the Emperor Constantine, who wouldn’t even be born for another two centuries, neither of which were politically, or physically, established as any kind of dominating influence, or ruling power, at that time, it was just the tradition handed down from their teachers who themselves were instructed by the Apostles (whose minds were opened to the scriptures by Christ).

    In His name

  16. You have made the case again brother Paul, the older text are without doubt the standard and the 1st day is witnessed throughout the New Testament, it is a clear-cut truth and cannot be defeated.
  17. Those Scriptures in Mark are suppose to be there. They were included in many found text which is not mentioned holding on to the Sinaiticus & Vaticanus. The small number that omits them does not outweigh the ones that included them.

    Irenaeus of Lyons who know Mark Personally 100ad Wrote that in the end of Marks Gospel He says He saw the Lord after he spoken and was received up to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the father.

    Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
    (Joh 20:14)

    Mary was the first to see him. No contradictions there.

    All the rest can be backed by other scriptures, and the focus is by Religious folks who want to argue over the Sabbath. I can't stress enough that is something we ought not to be bothered with. The Sabbath was not designed for Christians, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and best be Lord over everything else in your life.

    Jesus was risen the first of the Week. The Word "Day" was added for clarification. Mark does not explain what First of the week means. The first of what in the week?

    And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
    (Deu 5:15)

    We were not brought out of Egypt, We believed on Jesus.
  18. Of course its "day" what else would it be? And maybe you have not entered in His Rest but I have, and I know what the Sabbath is.. it is a ceasing from our "own" works ...namely those works prescribed in the law. That's the gospel! there is no other.
  19. Justin as far as I can find, as history has revealed, was schooled by the Bishops of Palestine (the first ten were biological relatives of Jesus)...now therefore he was not a Roman Catholic and their so called "denomination" did not even exist at the time. He wrote 100's of years before Constantine so anyone who accuses such is not telling the truth (that should be a key).

    When Justin was a preacher in the early to mid 2nd century, he was preaching to a community of pagan members of the Roman Empire and to Jewish leaders who still had not believed Jesus was the Christ (Messiah). So he writes in terms they will relate to and understand. So when he says to them, "For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration" he is not supporting the exoneration of planets or attesting the Roman names for the days are the correct names compared to scripture, but his point is clear.

    Now you must understand that he was referring to this second point casually (it was not his purpose) in a discussion of which day we were instructed by the Apostles to gather for corporate worship. This second point being that he mentions His crucifixion as being the day before Saturday...that is on the day portion of the day we call Friday which was the morning portion of what the Jews called the 6th day (our Thurs eve to our Fri afternoon)

    Why would such a righteous defender of the faith taught by such men so well well acquainted with the autographs (original writings) and the direct teachings of the Apostles, teach him this if it was a lie? That makes no sense at all. There is zero, zilch, evidence to so accuse the man.

    brother Paul
  20. Mitspa,

    re: "...but two are a biblical witness to truth."

    To which 2 scriptures are you referring, and what is the applicable truth with regard to the OP?

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