U
Unregistered
Guest
Interesting - 21 posts and not one has anything thing to do with my question.
and what was the question again... ?
Sometimes (in fact, quite often) posting a question or comment to a public forum is like saying something at a party. It touches off many reactions and responses, some of which will keep drifting way off course from the original thought.
I'm a little slow to catch on, sometimes, so it would help me if you could clarify your main concern in finding an author who uses Mark 16:9 as a point of doctrinal teaching. I know my question probably sounds stupid, since you've already explained how you got pulled into a kind of debate or argument.
To simply answer the question, I do not know of a published author who uses the verse in the way you suggested. This does not mean that I would disagree with your statement. It sounds plenty valid to me, as an argument. Personally, I would not be bothered by anyone who demands proof for such remarks as the one you made. The demand for proof implies that they know a lot more about who writes and teaches what, and if that were the actual case, then they have implied something silly, anyway.
The church is not established on published authors, since anyone with a few dollars can publish anything they want. Anyone who concerns themselves with "published authors" to the extent they feel the need to know all of them (or wish to claim that they do) is not a person concerned with wisdom or meaningful data. They are concerned with impressing others with their (idea of) superior knowledge. They may simply be young in the faith or maybe they lack formal education and therefore feel the need to impress others. Who knows?
My personal stance is that all the book of Mark is valid, and useful for sound doctrine. God is not dead. He is not stupid. He is not weak or sloppy in His work. He did not give a broken Bible to the church for centuries. What the Majority text and related traditions contain is just as good, as solid and trustworthy as any of the shiny new versions of English Bibles out there today.
While I greatly appreciate (and I really do) the scholars who try and dig up earlier and better manuscripts, constantly revising their ideas of which of the biblical manuscripts is oldest and most reliable, all such activity is of little importance to me. Granted, on a purely academic level, I am fascinated with any information on Bible texts. But at the same time, on that same academic level, I understand just how impossible it is to be certain of such things.
Styles of writing, words and phrases used, materials used, and other scientific evidences are sifted, studied, compared, and so on. We simply do not know enough to start making bold and dogmatic claims. The world of those days is not the world of today. A style of writing, for example, could continue in isolated areas for decades, or even centuries. The same is true of materials used, and everything else we might try to use to determine the exact age or value of a given writing.
But I do know God through faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit did not do the work of inspiring and using the Scriptures and then suddenly leave town on holiday. We can only have faulty Old or New Testaments if there really is no God who speaks to us or saves us.
Now there are, obviously, differences in manuscript traditions. And I praise God for all the differences. For me, it is not either/or. For me it is this and this and this. All of the Bible, and all of the manuscript traditions belong to me and to everyone who loves the Lord. Scripture is given by God as a revelation, not a puzzle without solutions. Satan may very well attack God's work in any number of ways, but God always wins, and so do we who trust Him.
For example, the book of Jeremiah (according to the book itself) was completely destroyed while it was being read to an unbelieving king just before the final captivity of Jerusalem. So Jeremiah and his hired scribe set to work, gathering up all the notes and fragments around his house, all of the things the Lord had given him over the years, and they recompiled the book. The result was a new and bigger book. I have no doubt that it is exactly what the Lord wanted us to have. Jeremiah says that it contains all the stuff he had written before, plus a lot more. When reading Jeremiah, you will find bits and fragments inserted that are actually repeated in the book. Satan did his thing and then God did His thing, and we have more today than we started with.
God always wins. (Jesus was murdered, that's a fact. But His death and resurrection is the salvation of the world, and God's original plan all along.)
I trust the Bible because I trust the God of the Bible. When I read the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit is with me and in me, bearing witness to what I read, assuring me that it is all good, it is the Word of God. The men of the early church had their criteria for determining what was inspired Scripture and what was just religious writing. And today, we apparently have our own. But God gives us His Word. God gives us the Holy Bible. It is His Word that is settled forever in heaven.
Popular ideas and debates come and go, changing with the times, according to the so-called wisdom of this world. You can choose to ride the roller coaster if you want. We all do things just for fun. But please do not base your faith in God or His Word on the ideas of other people, me included.
I don't believe in the Bible (or doubt it) because a well-meaning researcher, forum poster, or preacher has given (or withheld) his approval. I believe, as I've already said, because the God who really knows tells me that it's good and trustworthy and fully useful. I hope you will do the same.
Jim
Sometimes (in fact, quite often) posting a question or comment to a public forum is like saying something at a party. It touches off many reactions and responses, some of which will keep drifting way off course from the original thought.
I'm a little slow to catch on, sometimes, so it would help me if you could clarify your main concern in finding an author who uses Mark 16:9 as a point of doctrinal teaching. I know my question probably sounds stupid, since you've already explained how you got pulled into a kind of debate or argument.
To simply answer the question, I do not know of a published author who uses the verse in the way you suggested. This does not mean that I would disagree with your statement. It sounds plenty valid to me, as an argument. Personally, I would not be bothered by anyone who demands proof for such remarks as the one you made. The demand for proof implies that they know a lot more about who writes and teaches what, and if that were the actual case, then they have implied something silly, anyway.
The church is not established on published authors, since anyone with a few dollars can publish anything they want. Anyone who concerns themselves with "published authors" to the extent they feel the need to know all of them (or wish to claim that they do) is not a person concerned with wisdom or meaningful data. They are concerned with impressing others with their (idea of) superior knowledge. They may simply be young in the faith or maybe they lack formal education and therefore feel the need to impress others. Who knows?
My personal stance is that all the book of Mark is valid, and useful for sound doctrine. God is not dead. He is not stupid. He is not weak or sloppy in His work. He did not give a broken Bible to the church for centuries. What the Majority text and related traditions contain is just as good, as solid and trustworthy as any of the shiny new versions of English Bibles out there today.
While I greatly appreciate (and I really do) the scholars who try and dig up earlier and better manuscripts, constantly revising their ideas of which of the biblical manuscripts is oldest and most reliable, all such activity is of little importance to me. Granted, on a purely academic level, I am fascinated with any information on Bible texts. But at the same time, on that same academic level, I understand just how impossible it is to be certain of such things.
Styles of writing, words and phrases used, materials used, and other scientific evidences are sifted, studied, compared, and so on. We simply do not know enough to start making bold and dogmatic claims. The world of those days is not the world of today. A style of writing, for example, could continue in isolated areas for decades, or even centuries. The same is true of materials used, and everything else we might try to use to determine the exact age or value of a given writing.
But I do know God through faith in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit did not do the work of inspiring and using the Scriptures and then suddenly leave town on holiday. We can only have faulty Old or New Testaments if there really is no God who speaks to us or saves us.
Now there are, obviously, differences in manuscript traditions. And I praise God for all the differences. For me, it is not either/or. For me it is this and this and this. All of the Bible, and all of the manuscript traditions belong to me and to everyone who loves the Lord. Scripture is given by God as a revelation, not a puzzle without solutions. Satan may very well attack God's work in any number of ways, but God always wins, and so do we who trust Him.
For example, the book of Jeremiah (according to the book itself) was completely destroyed while it was being read to an unbelieving king just before the final captivity of Jerusalem. So Jeremiah and his hired scribe set to work, gathering up all the notes and fragments around his house, all of the things the Lord had given him over the years, and they recompiled the book. The result was a new and bigger book. I have no doubt that it is exactly what the Lord wanted us to have. Jeremiah says that it contains all the stuff he had written before, plus a lot more. When reading Jeremiah, you will find bits and fragments inserted that are actually repeated in the book. Satan did his thing and then God did His thing, and we have more today than we started with.
God always wins. (Jesus was murdered, that's a fact. But His death and resurrection is the salvation of the world, and God's original plan all along.)
I trust the Bible because I trust the God of the Bible. When I read the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Spirit is with me and in me, bearing witness to what I read, assuring me that it is all good, it is the Word of God. The men of the early church had their criteria for determining what was inspired Scripture and what was just religious writing. And today, we apparently have our own. But God gives us His Word. God gives us the Holy Bible. It is His Word that is settled forever in heaven.
Popular ideas and debates come and go, changing with the times, according to the so-called wisdom of this world. You can choose to ride the roller coaster if you want. We all do things just for fun. But please do not base your faith in God or His Word on the ideas of other people, me included.
I don't believe in the Bible (or doubt it) because a well-meaning researcher, forum poster, or preacher has given (or withheld) his approval. I believe, as I've already said, because the God who really knows tells me that it's good and trustworthy and fully useful. I hope you will do the same.
Jim