Mark 16:9-20

[CCW95A]

Believe what? 1. Believe that the God of the universe we liaising with can in fact...cure a snake bite.......

or 2. ''Believe'' as in we are believers in Jesus. We believe He was raisied from the dead and that He has us on earth because He wills it and no snake can object to it.

Have faith in God (Word). Without faith none of these things work. The very first place they would show up is in the life of the believer, before it spreads out to others.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

After having read Mark 16:9-20 a couple times I figure all the verses can be supported with other scripture. Even the sign gifts. We know that Paul did this all.

The argument for me is around this conflict.

Mark 16:19-20 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Matt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Can we give sign gift to a wicked generation when God says that He will not do it? That is the million dollar question.

The answer is a resounding no. What this means is that miracles / signs happen when and where God ordains it. They are not dependant on our faith.

If we read Acts 28:3-5 we see God in His omniscience ordained that the sign / miracle happen right there and then in front of the onlookers. Paul did not go looking for the snake. Paul did not pray for the wound. Paul did not profess to now have power over snakes. He knew / the onlookers knew that God stepped in and helped him out. The sign 'followed' Paul. Paul did not 'create' the sign.

signs and wonders - simply the results seen of Gods working power.
Still the same today as it was then.

 

[Major]

After having read Mark 16:9-20 a couple times I figure all the verses can be supported with other scripture. Even the sign gifts. We know that Paul did this all.

The argument for me is around this conflict.

Mark 16:19-20 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Matt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Can we give sign gift to a wicked generation when God says that He will not do it? That is the million dollar question.

The answer is a resounding no. What this means is that miracles / signs happen when and where God ordains it. They are not dependant on our faith.

If we read Acts 28:3-5 we see God in His omniscience ordained that the sign / miracle happen right there and then in front of the onlookers. Paul did not go looking for the snake. Paul did not pray for the wound. Paul did not profess to now have power over snakes. He knew / the onlookers knew that God stepped in and helped him out. The sign 'followed' Paul. Paul did not 'create' the sign.

Correct!

However, it matters very little what the Scriptures say to those who "want" those sign gifts are going to do them no matter what the Scriptures tell us.

For example, in the book of Acts and the Epistles, the miracles recorded there are performed by the apostles and their close associates. Why????

Paul gives us the reason why in 2 Corth. 12:12............
“The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance”.

If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle.

Then in Acts 2:22 it tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.” Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed. Then Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.

It is also important to realize that the early church did not have the completed Bible, as we do today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc. were necessary in order for the early Christians to know what God would have them do. The gift of prophecy enabled believers to communicate new truth and revelation from God. Now that God’s revelation is complete in the Bible, the “revelatory” gifts are no longer needed, at least not in the same capacity as they were in the New Testament.

Yes........God miraculously heals people every day. God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders. That is not the question at all.

 

[Major]

Jesus said.......

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Jesus did NOT say, "these signs shall follow them that do these things"

Jesus said, "these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE". The Christian simply believes, and then God works the miracles, through the one who believes.

When "man" does these things Jesus calls it "iniquity", when God does them it is called "righteousness"

Hebrews 2:4 says............
"God also testifying with THEM, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will".

Them in that verse refers to the Eleven disciples. How do we know that??????????

Hebrews 2:1...........
"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, least at any time we should let them slip."

There it is in the black and white of God's Word. Even at this point in writing (about 68 A.D.), the miracles are written as something that is a past event -- that those who had heard salvation from Christ had their ministry confirmed (validated) by signs and wonders and different kinds of miracles.

The Greek language here tells us that All the verbs in Hebrews 2:3 are in the past tense (even before 70 A.D.). "After it was (past tense) at the first spoken (past tense) through the Lord, it was confirmed (past tense) to us by those who heard (past tense)".

It is my opinion, for whatever it is worth, that there is no longer a need for the "sign gifts" of Mark 16 for which the prime purpose was to validate a ministry of direct revelation. God's Word is complete!

The argument is sometimes given that because people do not believe in the Bible, we need the miraculous just as it was needed in the apostles' day. If you do some research on the John Wimber and the Vineyard movement you will see that is what their teaching is all about.

However when we read Luke 16:27- 31, where Abraham tells a man in Hades that if a man does not believe the written Scriptures o Moses and the prophets, he will not believe even if someone is raised from the dead. The proof of that is obvious. Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and people still did not believe -- and still do not believe today.

 

[CCW95A]

Hebrews 2:4 says............
"God also testifying with THEM, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will".

Them in that verse refers to the Eleven disciples. How do we know that??????????

Hebrews 2:1...........
"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, least at any time we should let them slip."

Brother, you do know that the word, "them" is not in the original text. It was added later. Besides who is the writer talking about anyway? Angels!!!

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

 

[CCW95A]

It is my opinion, for whatever it is worth, that there is no longer a need for the "sign gifts" of Mark 16 for which the prime purpose was to validate a ministry of direct revelation. God's Word is complete!

The argument is sometimes given that because people do not believe in the Bible, we need the miraculous just as it was needed in the apostles' day. If you do some research on the John Wimber and the Vineyard movement you will see that is what their teaching is all about.

Phillip here is NOT the Apostle Phillip, but one of the seven chosen in Acts chapter 6. He performed miracles as he preached the Word in the city Samaria.

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Like I have said before, if you do not believe this is for the Church today, don't worry you will never experience it until you do. It's that simple.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Correct!

However, it matters very little what the Scriptures say to those who "want" those sign gifts are going to do them no matter what the Scriptures tell us.

For example, in the book of Acts and the Epistles, the miracles recorded there are performed by the apostles and their close associates. Why????

Paul gives us the reason why in 2 Corth. 12:12............
“The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance”.

If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle.

Then in Acts 2:22 it tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.” Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed. Then Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.

It is also important to realize that the early church did not have the completed Bible, as we do today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc. were necessary in order for the early Christians to know what God would have them do. The gift of prophecy enabled believers to communicate new truth and revelation from God. Now that God’s revelation is complete in the Bible, the “revelatory” gifts are no longer needed, at least not in the same capacity as they were in the New Testament.

Yes........God miraculously heals people every day. God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders. That is not the question at all.

Major Hi,
You said ((However, it matters very little what the Scriptures say to those who "want" those sign gifts are going to do them no matter what the Scriptures tell us.))

How does this even apply ?
Signs and wonders are Always what is seen of Gods power working through us.
You lay hands on some one and they recover - what is seen is signs and wonders of Gods working power through the one who laid hands on them.

Anything a Born Again Believer does as in God working through them - is simply a sign and wonder of Gods working power........This is why we are not to be following after them but sings and wonders should be following after us.

God Bless
Jim

 

[Euphemia]

I can only call it the way I see it and your actual words were...............
"You really need to go through the New Testament and discard your denominational flavouring, and allow Holy Spirit to teach you HIS truth about the anointing."

You can slice it and dice anyway you choose my sister, but those words do in fact bring into question anyone's faith.

I guarantee that "almost everyone"who reads those words will agree that they do exactly that!!!

Now then.........what if I or anyone else said those words to you personally. What kind of conversation would we be having at this very moment???????

If I said to you that if I did not challenge your comments of something, it would be sin for me. Again, what would be YOUR attitude at this very moment??????

Your faith is never in question. It is only your understanding, and that which you've been taught by men that is not in keeping with the word as revealed to us all.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Phillip here is NOT the Apostle Phillip, but one of the seven chosen in Acts chapter 6. He performed miracles as he preached the Word in the city Samaria.

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Like I have said before, if you do not believe this is for the Church today, don't worry you will never experience it until you do. It's that simple.

Curtis Hi,
I agree Brother........
How can any one deny that God is not to work amongst us in this day and hour ?
How can any one deny Gods love for His creation and say these things are not for us today?
God is the same today - yesterday and tomorrow.........
Are we the church living in an area other then one of these three ?

God Loves us - God heals and delivers us - God works through us-
Blessings
Jim

 

[Major]

Your faith is never in question. It is only your understanding, and that which you've been taught by men that is not in keeping with the word as revealed to us all.

That is your personal opinion my sister and I may say the very same thing about your lack of understanding.

And I do not think that "us all" are involved. Maybe you and one or two but certainly not all of us, as if that made a difference to me.

That is a very ambiguous statement which you are trying to say that there is truth in the majority.

 

[Major]

Major Hi,
You said ((However, it matters very little what the Scriptures say to those who "want" those sign gifts are going to do them no matter what the Scriptures tell us.))

How does this even apply ?
Signs and wonders are Always what is seen of Gods power working through us.
You lay hands on some one and they recover - what is seen is signs and wonders of Gods working power through the one who laid hands on them.

Anything a Born Again Believer does as in God working through them - is simply a sign and wonder of Gods working power........This is why we are not to be following after them but sings and wonders should be following after us.

God Bless
Jim

Jim, the conversation has been on "Sign Gifts" that are found in the disputed verses of Mark 16:9-18 and not the "Spiritual Gifts" of the Holy Spirt that God gives graciously to believers. There is a very large difference.

 

[Euphemia]

That is your personal opinion my sister and I may say the very same thing about your lack of understanding.

And I do not think that "us all" are involved. Maybe you and one or two but certainly not all of us, as if that made a difference to me.

That is a very ambiguous statement which you are trying to say that there is truth in the majority.

You can say what you like, Major...but my understanding is not influenced by others, but only by Holy Spirit as He speaks. Jesus speaks to His children and Holy Spirit reveals truth. The onus is on us to open our spiritual ears and eyes to it.

The word revealed to His people plainly says that the mark of a believer is that healing, tongues and miracles---all the spiritual gifts included---follow him. There is no time limit on that as long as Jesus tarries. You can take that to the bank.

 

[Major]

Brother, you do know that the word, "them" is not in the original text. It was added later. Besides who is the writer talking about anyway? Angels!!!

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Interesting!!!! You choose to accept that fact but then choose to reject the same fact when it is said about Mark 16:9 and following since it has been said that the ending of Mark was added as well and was not included in the two oldest manuscripts.

Now then........Is the word them in verse #3? How about verse #4 as well????

Who was it then that ...........
"which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him?"

 

[Euphemia]

Interesting!!!! You choose to accept that fact but then choose to reject the same fact when it is said about Mark 16:9 and following since it has been said that the ending of Mark was added as well and was not included in the two oldest manuscripts.

Now then........Is the word them in verse #3? How about verse #4 as well????

Who was it then that ...........
"which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him?"

What about verse 4?

" And God confirmed the message by giving signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose."

This continues today, God confirming the message of truth with various signs and wonders and of course it goes without saying that the gifts of the Spirit are always in play.

 

[Major]

You can say what you like, Major...but my understanding is not influenced by others, but only by Holy Spirit as He speaks. Jesus speaks to His children and Holy Spirit reveals truth. The onus is on us to open our spiritual ears and eyes to it.

The word revealed to His people plainly says that the mark of a believer is that healing, tongues and miracles---all the spiritual gifts included---follow him. There is no time limit on that as long as Jesus tarries. You can take that to the bank.

I do not agree at all with your comments. They are your personal opinions and in the same manner, everyone else has the same right to their own.

Your comments have proven exactly who you allow to influence your thinking. IF you think that is some big secret you are very mistaken.

Now I am done with this as it is becoming more and more contentious.

 

[Euphemia]

I do not agree at all with your comments. They are your personal opinions and in the same manner, everyone else has the same right to their own.

Your comments have proven exactly who you allow to influence your thinking. IF you think that is some big secret you are very mistaken.

Now I am done with this as it is becoming more and more contentious.

I speak from what the word says and from what God has shown me to be true. Jesus is my Lord, and His Spirit teaches me and leads me into all truth. I can rely on Him for that. So can you.

Blessings, Major!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Jim, the conversation has been on "Sign Gifts" that are found in the disputed verses of and not the "Spiritual Gifts" of the Holy Spirt that God gives graciously to believers. There is a very large difference.

Major and that is what I replied to.
Those signs are simply the Results Seen of Gods Power Working Through Some One.

((And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues , they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." ))

What is it in this that you do not believe ? Where do you get "sign gifts" ?
Gifts should not even be in that statement.
It snowed and you go out side and see fresh dear tracks in your yard.....
Well that is a "Sign" that dear have been in your yard.

You are born of the spirit of God and walk in His ways. One day you and your family are out and about and a stray car flies out of no place and runs a child over.......You are out in the boonies and know that the emergency people will be a while. Your heart is moved and you go and comfort the child and lay hands on her and pray..........

God hears your prayer - God Moves in the situation - The girl ends up being un-harmed - every one saw here all tore up - what the people just saw was a sign and wonder........The rtesults seen of Gods working power through a born again believer.........

What is the debate in this ?
God Bless
Jim

 

[CCW95A]

Interesting!!!! You choose to accept that fact but then choose to reject the same fact when it is said about Mark 16:9 and following since it has been said that the ending of Mark was added as well and was not included in the two oldest manuscripts.

Now then........Is the word them in verse #3? How about verse #4 as well????

Who was it then that ...........
"which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him?"

There is a huge difference between one word being removed as apposed to many verses all in a row being taken out.

 

[Major]

I speak from what the word says and from what God has shown me to be true. Jesus is my Lord, and His Spirit teaches me and leads me into all truth. I can rely on Him for that. So can you.

Blessings, Major!

Thank you and I can say that it works exactly the same way for me. God bless you as well.

 

[CCW95A]

Would "sickness" be considered someone who is "oppressed by the devil"? Did Jesus give his "body" "authority", and "power" over all the works of the devil?

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Is God with us? Jesus HEALED ALL who were oppressed of the devil. Would healing be considered a "miracle" ? If miracles could not done by the Church today, then the Church is absolutely "powerless" over the devil, and the devil can do anything he wants without hindrance.
It does not take much understanding to know this simply not true.

Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?


Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.