Macarthur's Understanding Of The Holy Spirit

[Major]

Yes, this is where the spiritual gift of "discerning of spirits" (1 Cor 12:10) is highly recommended.
But, first comes the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Whomever sincerely desires this, trust in Matt 7:7-11.
Those numbers are recommended in Vegas also.

The sinner is baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment he accepts Christ!

Matt. 7:7-11 has nothing to do with being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38..................
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Barnes' says......
"Clearly then we can see that true repentance is the only thing in such a state of mind that can give any relief. An ingenuous confession of sin, a solemn purpose to forsake it, and a true hatred of it, is the only thing that can give the mind composure. Such is the constitution of the mind that nothing else will furnish relief. But the moment we are willing to make an open confession of guilt, the mind is delivered of its burden, and the convicted soul finds peace".

Clark says........
"Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - If ye faithfully use the sign, ye shall get the substance. Receive the baptism, in reference to the removal of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, by whose agency alone the efficacy of the blood of the covenant is applied, and by whose refining power the heart is purified. It was by being baptized in the name of Christ that men took upon themselves the profession of Christianity; and it was in consequence of this that the disciples of Christ were called Christians."

 

[Major]

When I accepted Christ as my savior, I was baptised with the HS. If you are to "discern" you must test. I see no testing in this movement what-so-ever.

You are absolutely correct!.........(again)!

 

[Silk]

It's been implied I don't believe in the "gifts" and/or I'm afraid to ask for them and that's just not so. I know God can do anything beyond what I or you can imagine. Or any 7 billion put together. He gives/gifts me with what I need. Personally, I don't want "bragging" rights on Tongues and as far as I can see, that's the only reason I could have for asking - unless it's to be "comforted" because everyone else seems to claim to it as proof of their own sacredness. And maybe that's an unkind thing for me to type. I don't fear to question/test the spirits or voices or people that come to me because my number one priority is NOT TO BE SEPARATED FROM GOD. I believe all who say they love God, speak in tongues, or have discernment but I know what path I'm on and Who's hand guides me.

 

[Barnabas]

I believe all who say they love God, speak in tongues, or have discernment but I know what path I'm on and Who's hand guides me.

A Pentacostal with discernment is a contradiction. How do you discern gibberish from tongues?

 

[Silk]

A Pentacostal with discernment is a contradiction. How do you discern gibberish from tongues?

I'm not pentacostal and don't speak in Tongues. There are people I respect that say they have spoken in tongues and I believe them - I have no reason to disbelieve anyone who claims it. What they define as Tongues is not my biblical interpetation of tongues. (spare us all Paul's correction to Corinthians - a clear case of abuse of the gift as proof that the tongues used today is the same.) I am never going to get past why HS (as God) needs to pray to Himself in a language the speaker doesn't understand. God's command to me both personally and scripturally said: Understand and Learn . It would be confusing to me for tongues to enter the picture. Someone else may need something different. So to be clear - I don't believe "speakers" are necessarily not of God - on the other hand, I don't think they are any more "special" to God than any other believer.

In a book I read, "The Exorcism of Annaliese Michel" by Anthropologist Felicitas Goodman, researches have indicated that the rasc (religious altered states of consciousness) if analyzed by sound frequency are identical to religious cultures throughout the world. Demon possession tapes, to voodoo ceremonies, kundalini, and speaking in tongues - all the same frequency. It is used in the book to prove that Michel was not psychotic/insane. The difference in demon possession is that the "demon" speaks in a known language, even if unknown to the possessed. It would concern me if I spoke in tongues. * But I don't.

 

[JustPassingThru]

A Pentacostal with discernment is a contradiction. How do you discern gibberish from tongues?

Brother, inflammatory statements like that is not speaking the Truth in love, let's show our maturity and not start any flaming wars, ..there are many Pentecostals that have discernment that agree with MacArthur about the demonic Kundalini force manifestations that people are trying to pass off as the Holy Spirit.

As for your question, I asked a member here record what he said when speaking in tongues for us all to judge 1 Thes 5:21 by passing it through an language translator here on the internet, ...he refused.

Personally, if I was advocating a a particular gift, and it was controversial, if I had the means to verify it I would for two reason, first to bless the church and second allow the church to judge it to make certain I wasn't deceived.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[JustPassingThru]

I'm not pentacostal and don't speak in Tongues. There are people I respect that say they have spoken in tongues and I believe them - I have no reason to disbelieve anyone who claims it. What they define as Tongues is not my biblical interpetation of tongues. (spare us all Paul's correction to Corinthians - a clear case of abuse of the gift as proof that the tongues used today is the same.) I am never going to get past why HS (as God) needs to pray to Himself in a language the speaker doesn't understand. God's command to me both personally and scripturally said: Understand and Learn . It would be confusing to me for tongues to enter the picture. Someone else may need something different. So to be clear - I don't believe "speakers" are necessarily not of God - on the other hand, I don't think they are any more "special" to God than any other believer.

In a book I read, "The Exorcism of Annaliese Michel" by Anthropologist Felicitas Goodman, researches have indicated that the rasc (religious altered states of consciousness) if analyzed by sound frequency are identical to religious cultures throughout the world. Demon possession tapes, to voodoo ceremonies, kundalini, and speaking in tongues - all the same frequency. It is used in the book to prove that Michel was not psychotic/insane. The difference in demon possession is that the "demon" speaks in a known language, even if unknown to the possessed. It would concern me if I spoke in tongues. * But I don't.

PREACH IT SISTER!!!

Exactly, Absolutely, Right On!!!

BINGO!!!

We have a winner!

YES, demons have a language, ...they mutter and peep!

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isa 8:19

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Osterloh]

..there are many Pentecostals that have discernment that agree with MacArthur about
the demonic Kundalini force manifestations that people are trying to pass off as the Holy Spirit.

Please enlighten me on this ... From the first 6+ minutes of the video ...
I thought MacArthur is against ALL manifestations, which appear to be similar to what is spoken of in the NT.
Careful of my wording!
ALL could include BOTH genuine and phony manifestations.
He is against the possibility that some could be genuine, right?

 

[JustPassingThru]

Please enlighten me on this ... From the first 6+ minutes of the video ...
I thought MacArthur is against ALL manifestations, which appear to be similar to what is spoken of in the NT.
Careful of my wording!
ALL could include BOTH genuine and phony manifestations.
He is against the possibility that some could be genuine, right?

MacArthur is just a man like any of us, we all make mistakes, however Father in His infinite wisdom knows there are some of His kids that need to be in a church like that, so He provides one for them, John's mistake was going public with what Father had blessed him and them with, yes he is correct about the bizarre Kundalini force being passed of in the church as the Holy Spirit, but no he is wrong that the sign gifts have ceased.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Silk]

I could just say - watch all of the video but those who have eyes/ears......
MacArthur believes that the "apostle" and "prophet" stage is finished with Revelation. He believes that only the "controversial" gifts have ceased because the need for these as "proof" of the Truth's work was completed with Christ and the 1st century apostles. That's not to say MacArthur thinks that "miracles" of healing and insight doesn't continue to this day. Or that the HS isn't working in our lives. He uses scripture in context to show his points over a wide range from OT and New and he has a scriptural (overall) basis for all he says. That being said - I don't agree with all he says. But I can't listen to the man without noticing how much truth he speaks.

 

[Barnabas]

Brother, inflammatory statements like that is not speaking the Truth in love,

It would be much appreciated if you could explain how I could concisely make my point without being inflammatory?

As for your question, I asked a member here record what he said when speaking in tongues for us all to judge by passing it through an language translator here on the internet, ...he refused.

Google Translate has auto-language detection and about 80 languages, probably covering 99% of the modern world's population, but it wouldn't understand any Pentecostals tongues. You could feed it tongues from a thousand Pentecostals, and not a one of them would be speaking a language of 99% of the world's population. And, if you found one who spoke a real language, a little investigation would reveal that Pentacostal to be a fraud (that he learned the language the old fashioned way).

English is one of the simplest languages because it's little more than just memorizing word translations and some grammar. But, all languages have a specific pool of sounds and a number of rules that keep the language structurally distinctive. Pentecostal tongues come from the English pool of sounds and has essentially no detectable rules that would indicate a language is being spoken.

For example, in some languages, tonal changes are used to indicate the meaning of word. We don't have that in English, so English-speaking Pentecostals don't use tonal changes in their tongues. Pentecostals aren't speaking Chinese. They aren't speaking languages of angels. They're speaking English gibberish!

But, even someone who doesn't understand this should still understand that a "miracle" that has no practical value and is indistinguishable from a non-miracle is unworthy to be called a miracle.

 

[JustPassingThru]

It would be much appreciated if you could explain how I could concisely make my point without being inflammatory?



Google Translate has auto-language detection and about 80 languages, probably covering 99% of the modern world's population, but it wouldn't understand any Pentecostals tongues. You could feed it tongues from a thousand Pentecostals, and not a one of them would be speaking a language of 99% of the world's population. And, if you found one who spoke a real language, a little investigation would reveal that Pentacostal to be a fraud (that he learned the language the old fashioned way).

English is one of the simplest languages because it's little more than just memorizing word translations and some grammar. But, all languages have a specific pool of sounds and a number of rules that keep the language structurally distinctive. Pentecostal tongues come from the English pool of sounds and has essentially no detectable rules that would indicate a language is being spoken.

For example, in some languages, tonal changes are used to indicate the meaning of word. We don't have that in English, so English-speaking Pentecostals don't use tonal changes in their tongues. Pentecostals aren't speaking Chinese. They aren't speaking languages of angels. They're speaking English gibberish!

But, even someone who doesn't understand this should still understand that a "miracle" that has no practical value and is indistinguishable from a non-miracle is unworthy to be called a miracle.

You just answered your own question with a thoughtful intelligent post, thank you, and I'm in agreement with what you are saying, that's probably the reason why they won't record what they believe to be speaking in tongues, ........how fast they forget what Jesus said to Peter when he spoke from his carnal nature, ...Get thee behind me satan!

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Silk]

@Barnabas says: "But, even someone who doesn't understand this should still understand that a "miracle" that has no practical value and is indistinguishable from a non-miracle is unworthy to be called a miracle."

The rasc research did see an "aural frequency" which if I remember correctly, showed a tonal frquency match that graphed the same as spoken languages. It is true that probability/code breaking studies have shown it to be non language but they have no idea whether the speakers used in studies are actually speaking tongues. It's anybodies guess. I tried to get an "interpeter" to interpet clips from members on this and the first clip submitted was "singing in tongues" which they'd never heard before but claimed it wasn't tongues. As a consequence, there is strain now between us and the interpeter dropped out. It turned out to be a bad idea on my part.

But I do agree with Barnabas on the above statement.

 

[Osterloh]

MacArthur is just a man like any of us, we all make mistakes ... yes he is correct about the bizarre Kundalini force being passed of in the church as the Holy Spirit, but no he is wrong that the sign gifts have ceased.

Yes, the problem is ... some BACs who are very gifted in 1 or 2 areas
think they can transfer this gifting to other areas where they are not gifted.

 

[Silk]

Yes, the problem is ... some BACs who are very gifted in 1 or 2 areas
think they can transfer this gifting to other areas where they are not gifted.

I don't think I am getting your meaning?

 

[Silk]

In the end, the Holy Spirit's work - the scriptural basis is for connecting us with God - in clarity and understanding. This movement produces none of this - just confusion with new phrases that do not conform, when broken down, to scripture. Such things as hokey pokey seems more to do with "quenching" than otherwise. I don't see the HS's work shining out of this.

 

[Osterloh]

I don't think I am getting your meaning?

To turn a fine point into a blunt one ...
Johnny has a lot of insight into spiritual Truth in some areas
(ever read his book "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ",
which he had to backtrack on because of his denomination's outrage?)
... but he should keep his nose out of areas that he knows absolutely nothing about.
I.E. most Christians who do not have the Jesus-administered baptism
have no idea at all what it (and the 9 spiritual power gifts) is all about.
(Note: the HolySpirit-administered baptism is talked about in 1 Cor 12:12-14)

 

[Major]

Brother, inflammatory statements like that is not speaking the Truth in love, let's show our maturity and not start any flaming wars, ..there are many Pentecostals that have discernment that agree with MacArthur about the demonic Kundalini force manifestations that people are trying to pass off as the Holy Spirit.

As for your question, I asked a member here record what he said when speaking in tongues for us all to judge 1 Thes 5:21 by passing it through an language translator here on the internet, ...he refused.

Personally, if I was advocating a a particular gift, and it was controversial, if I had the means to verify it I would for two reason, first to bless the church and second allow the church to judge it to make certain I wasn't deceived.

Blessings,

Gene

Well said Gene and I agree. I remember the post and even added my agreement of your question to him.

 

[Major]

In the end, the Holy Spirit's work - the scriptural basis is for connecting us with God - in clarity and understanding. This movement produces none of this - just confusion with new phrases that do not conform, when broken down, to scripture. Such things as hokey pokey seems more to do with "quenching" than otherwise. I don't see the HS's work shining out of this.

Neither do I and I have said that now for a long, long time!

 

[Major]

It would be much appreciated if you could explain how I could concisely make my point without being inflammatory?



Google Translate has auto-language detection and about 80 languages, probably covering 99% of the modern world's population, but it wouldn't understand any Pentecostals tongues. You could feed it tongues from a thousand Pentecostals, and not a one of them would be speaking a language of 99% of the world's population. And, if you found one who spoke a real language, a little investigation would reveal that Pentacostal to be a fraud (that he learned the language the old fashioned way).

English is one of the simplest languages because it's little more than just memorizing word translations and some grammar. But, all languages have a specific pool of sounds and a number of rules that keep the language structurally distinctive. Pentecostal tongues come from the English pool of sounds and has essentially no detectable rules that would indicate a language is being spoken.

For example, in some languages, tonal changes are used to indicate the meaning of word. We don't have that in English, so English-speaking Pentecostals don't use tonal changes in their tongues. Pentecostals aren't speaking Chinese. They aren't speaking languages of angels. They're speaking English gibberish!

But, even someone who doesn't understand this should still understand that a "miracle" that has no practical value and is indistinguishable from a non-miracle is unworthy to be called a miracle.

You have a good grasp it seems on this subject. I agree with you. To you and I it seems really simple but to the majority of the Pentecostals, it is wrong and they reject it out of hand.

Again, what is learned is hard to reject, when we like it!