Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Silk, Jul 15, 2014.
Oh, wow! Listening now. Thank you!!!!
I have much to learn. Thank you, Porcupine73!
Hi tezriLi (does your name have a meaning you would share?) What did you think?
TezriLi merely means "help me" in Hebrew. My cry when I came here. And I have cried out for help since!
I really enjoyed the teaching. I need to hear it again, and I want to get the book as well as hear more. Thank you!!
Wow - thanks for the meaning. I couldn't help thinking how poetic it sounds. I like writing and sometimes do poems. As for the video, no thanks necessary to me. I never was taught much about the HS, and I learned alot of what I know here. While I don't agree with all that MacArthur has to say on all topics - he has clarified my thinking in this area and that has strenghtened my faith.
I think most Christians (including charismatics) would agree with his explanation of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the last 3rd of the sermon.
I'm also ok with calling out abuse where you see it, but I do feel like he stretches his frustration with Peter Wagner et al to point of a fallacy of composition in labeling toward all of "charismania"
I appreciate his sense of not being able to stand idly by with out castigating was he see's in the charismatic movements. It seems to me that if one is a truly committed cessationist (full disclosure, I am not), intellectual honesty would compel you to stand in judgement of the 25% of Christians that must be (according to the cessationist) either knowingly lying or full of some other spirit.
The sermon isn't actually about whether there is a solid biblical foundation for cessationism, that's just taken for granted, so there's not much to debate there and stay on thread. But there was one thing I was pretty uncomfortable with.
I have trouble with his defining of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as
"...attributing to the Holy Spirit words that He didn’t say, deeds that He didn’t do, and experiences that He didn’t produce, attributing to the Holy Spirit that which is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Endless human experiences, emotional experiences, bizarre experiences and demonic experiences are said to come from the Holy Spirit…visions, revelations, voices from heaven, messages from the Spirit through transcendental means, dreams, speaking in tongues, prophecies, out of body experiences, trips to heaven, anointings, miracles. All false, all lies, all deceptions attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit." This seems like an amazingly sweeping statement to make with out some sort of reference to a clear biblical statement of such. To say that all of those are all lies and deceptions seems to throw most of the church fathers under the bus, so to speak. I need more than this if I'm going to say Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Moody, Newton, and George Müller(and on and on) are all guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Well - I could refer you to the Testing the Spirits thread but MacArthur always backs what he says with scripture after scripture after scripture, cross referenced here there and everywhere with more scripture and historical, scholarly and commentary. I could refer you to his strange fire conference. (19 hr on youtube). He is not saying cessation on all the gifts - just the controversial ones - prophecy, tongues, & healers. These days who would hear the Prophet of the Lord amidst the noise and din of the claimants to this position. And the claimants in the charismatic movement give their own stats well below biblical standards of a true prophet of 100%. I know of thousands of people healed by God in hospitals every day, where medical doctors have no explanation for healings. Studies have been done in the past that show prayer is a significant factor for after surgery patients. And yet not one of these charismatic "healers" can produce one (repeat one) medically verified healing. What we are seeing out of this movement is leaders living in mansions, who's people they promise to heal get blamed for their illness by their lack of faith. Extreme errors and frauds have multiplied in a movement that is "experiencing spirit" and saying things in complete contradiction to the Word. It's dangerous and does not conform to the Word. It is putting pressure on people like you and me to seek spirits without testing, or else we won't be considered part of the line to the HS Hokey Pokey (another phrase straight from this movement). It angers me because it is misleading countless people who just want to love the True God.
Having said that - there are people I respect who say they spoke in tongues, I take them at their word. I have felt the presence of God and the one thing that overrides is surety of how unworthy you really are - I hear none of this from these people. I hear alot of braggadocio and God's "favorite". When I feel the HS moving in me I feel a preternatural focus and sharpness - like I'm at a different level. Not like I'm drunk and laughing at nothing for 3 hrs. I don't shake and act uncontrollably. All I have learned is that if it doesn't conform to the Word, it's not of God. I love God - I want to do His Will. I'll stick to that path.
Just in case you thought I was making it up:
Sorry all I could think was this after that video.
Yes, I already know that I don't believe everything that John MacArthur says, so I am very critical. However, when the Word, rightly divided, matches what is said, my ears perk up, and I want to research.
At the synagogue where I attend, I may be the only one who has said that all of today's demonstrations are fake, and I am taking back my words to a point. I believe that their "Hokie Pokie," and anything similar, is ridiculous and a smack in the Face of the H Spirit, as I believe are the barking, hissing, acting like wolves, etc. And I believe these things do not go unnoticed by G-d.
Further, over the last few days, I have seen how serious it is when people fake it, and the above teaching emphasized that to me. We should quake in our boots when we are willing to attribute to the H Spirit what He never instituted. I hope that if anyone here is tempted to do that, they don't. They stop. He doesn't need our silliness.
One of the teachers at my synagogue has said that he doesn't believe that the gift of tongues has ended, but he also said that he has not experienced this gift. There was one time when he prayed for the gift, as he cared on the freeway for a Russian family that had been in an accident that ended up being fatal. He prayed to be able to lead them to G-d by speaking to them in their own language, but it never happened. Years after he told this, I mentioned to him that people of Acts 2 not only spoke in unknown languages, but some of them heard other languages. Maybe they heard his English in Russian. One will never know.
I didn't recognize any of the names he gave here, so I don't know.
I was comfortable with this statement of his, because I thought he said something like
In other words, attributing the fake stuff to Him. This certainly goes with the commandment not to use His Name in vain.
John is one the best Bible teachers available today!!!
You may not like some of the things he says, BUT when you look them up in the Bible, you will not like what it says either!
The tongues in Acts are NOT the tongues we see practiced today.
The easiest of all gifts to fake is the speaking in tongues.
Why then would anyone want to fake it??? So as to project themselves as more spiritual than other believers. It is a "pride" thing.
Macarthur is demonstrating sound teaching.
Those people doing the HS Hokey Pokey, if they ever grow up, they'll be totally embarrassed.
Ahhh. I had thought the last sentence "All false, all lies, all deceptions attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit" applied to all "…visions, revelations, voices from heaven, messages from the Spirit through transcendental means, dreams, speaking in tongues, prophecies, out of body experiences, trips to heaven, anointings, miracles." since the end of the time of the apostles.
Absolutely and I'm glad to have him! But the better someone is, the easier it is let them do all the thinking rather than working through my own faith with fear and trembling. For my part I go through stuff from MacArthur and Piper as carefully and critically as I can as I would Lewis or Kreeft or Chesterton or any other writer I find compelling. I do usually end up agreeing with them pretty consistently, and that's fine, but I don't want it to be because I turned my brain off or allowed my self to canonize them with the authority of scripture.
Indeed. We have to be so careful. The more we trust someone, the more likely we are to stop thinking and start letting them do our thinking for us. We need constant, consistent warning to keep doing our own thinking and research.
You wind up agreeing with them because you realize that that they are bound to the Scriptures! Ya think???
There are many that use scriptures and are drop dead wrong.
Because they may know the scriptures back and forth, but if they are not delivering them within the context of what is being illuminated in The Word and within The Two Great Commands; they are doing nothing but discharging CO2.
What would be a couple of Scriptures that are drop dead wrong that people use???
Just curious as to what page we are on?