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Limited Atonement?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Stan, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Really? Did Jesus die ONLY for what Calvinists call The Elect?

    Let's see...

    John 3:16, the Greek word for WHOEVER is pas, which connotes: individually; each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.

    I really don't want to use doctrine to deal with this. I want to use SCRIPTURE!
     
  2. Even earlier, John points out that Christ came , not for a per-selected elite, but for the entire planet.
    It's the same word, pas, for "every".

    Now why would God light every man, when He created the vast majority to fry in hell? (according to hard shell Calvinists?) If God pre-decided who will fly and who will fry, why would He say this?
     
    KingJ and Stan say Amen and like this.
  3. Then use the right scripture. John 3:16 says He loved the world, there is nothing about atonement in that verse. As a matter of fact, "atonement" is an Old Testament term meaning "covering," and never actually appears in the NT. Jesus did not "cover" sins; He took them away. Jesus "purchased" his "church" which is a limited group (Acts 20:28). It says in Mt. 20:28 and again in Mk. 10:45 that He gave his life a ransom FOR MANY. It does not say "ALL." The word "many" in these two passages is a term that is never used with an all inclusive meaning. Think of it from the standpoint of God's omniscience: If God knew who would be his redeemed people before the world began, why would Christ die for the unsaved? That would mean that God exacted the penalty for sin twice, once on his Son and again on the sinner who is now in hell. Is that divine justice? If Christ died for all, what would stop an unsaved person from being admitted to heaven? If Christ paid the penalty for all of his sin, he couldn't be barred from Heaven. You might answer, "Yes, but he didn't receive Christ as Savior." Yes, but did Christ also pay the penalty for his rejection of Him, and if so, than all of his sin is gone and he can't be kept out.
     
  4. 1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    These scriptures are crystal clear that Jesus died for the worlds / every-ones sin. Then 'especially believers' mentioned by Timothy simply because as believers we accept this gift and fulfil the purpose of His sacrifice.

    For me those who believe in limited atonement don't realize they fall / fail on their first step. How do you know that you are one of the elected? How do you explain to your wife that you love with all your heart, that you are elected and she is not? How dare you not kill your baby! Only a terrible parent will allow their kid to grow up to maturity and run the risk of not being elected! The gospel preached is amended from ''Turn from evil, repent and accept Christ'' to ''turn from evil, repent, accept Christ and hope He chose to accept you''. Then lastly as mentioned on another thread, who in their right mind would serve a God / judge Him as good that atones some for heaven and others for hell?
     
    Rusty likes this.
  5. I'm not understanding your argument here. No one does know who the elect are! That's why Calvinists preach the gospel to the whole world. William Carey, the Father of Modern Missions, was a committed Calvinist and won many souls in India as did Adoriam Judson in Burma. The elect don't wear a label, "I'm one of the elect, evangelize me." Think of Ezekiel who stood before a valley of dry, dead, parched bones and was told to preach to them and he did. It was the Lord who gave them life and used the preaching of the Prophet. All the first generation Reformers--Luther, Malancthon, Knox, Calvin, Beza--were all Calvinists to the man. Luther wrote "The Bondage of the Will" which is the most Calvinistic book you can read and it was published long before Calvin came along. These men were responsible for the greatest Christian revival in the history of Europe. Jonathan Edwards is credited with starting the Great Awakening in colonial America and he was a committed Calvinist. Calvinists have been at the forefront of evangelism and missions, so I'm honestly not understanding your view here. We disagree over this view, and I'm fine with that. In my career, I've been on both sides of this issue and I see from both sides.
     
  6. #6 KingJ, Jul 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
    Jack my point is, that if you are one of the elected, you can go home, sleep and do whatever you want. If you are not one of the elected you can go home, sleep and do whatever you want. If the decision is completely out of our hands, then why go to church? Why spread the gospel? What are we even doing on earth? Why were we the elect not created elsewhere / separate from the non-elect? It pleases God that His elect associate with / are under the power of the likes of Hitler / Nero? God is confused, sick, evil and partial?

    How do you judge God as 'good' when He selects some for hell and some for heaven?
     
    Rusty likes this.
  7. the second to the last sentence/question....
    it blows my mind… how you can typed that in your keyboard….
     
  8. I'm really not understanding your latest post. Why go to church? To learn of his Word, fellowship with other Christians, and worship the Lord of Glory. Why spread the gospel? Because that is how God saves people (Ezekiel and the Valley of dead bones). "By the foolishness of preaching...." How do I judge God as "good" when He selects some for hell and some for heaven? Because all people are deserving of hell. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. It is to the goodness of God that He has elected anyone. God could have allowed all of us to slip into a Christless and roasting eternity and been perfectly justified in doing that. It is by the grace of God that He elected anyone.
     
  9. About Calvinists being at the forefront of evangelism and missions? Why not? Did you read my list of Calvinists and what they have done for the Lord? I can't help but wonder where you got you conception of Calvinists from.
     
  10. Nope, am referring to the post before that, of KingJ…
     
  11. You are dodging the heart of the questions Jack.

    Ok Jack. If you say that you will honestly judge God as good (because scripture says He is!!!) when YOU are burning in hell, watching the special few in heaven partying....that is your choice. I am not going to judge God the same.

    OSAS >>>>>>>> Limited atonement ;)!!!!!
     
  12. #12 KingJ, Jul 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
    why??
     
  13. If you're asking me that, no, not at all.
    AHA: You might answer, "Yes, but he didn't receive Christ as Savior." Yes, but did Christ also pay the penalty for his rejection of Him, and if so, than all of his sin is gone and he can't be kept out.
    JACK: Okay, what about this statement troubles you? I'd be happy to comment further if you wish.
     
  14. Haha! : ) am not upset, maybe am just overreacting….
    ……it is just that, it blows my mind…

    Believing that God is good, is intrinsic to us Christians…
    Calling another Christian that your is that of evil, partial?
    I don’t know…

    As I posted earlier in another thread about a movie, bravery is intrinsic to Hun,,,,
    And there is one Hun who called his brother Hun a coward…..and the Hun answered “You called your brother Hun a coward?

    Since bravery is intrinsic to all Hun (at least of that movie,) it sounds to me like that assumption is a betrayal of their own class…

    Okay, maybe am just overreacting : )
     
  15. Of course, I won't be burning in hell because I know the Lord Jesus as my Savior and Lord, and I hope you do too. So, your comment is way off base to start with. I'm not consciously dodging anything. Did I not answer a question or did I misunderstand something? I'd be more than happy to respond to it. What's the heart of the questions?
     
  16. God is good. I'm not understanding your point about "calling other Christians evil." What are you talking about? What other Christians are evil?
     
  17. You are making me chase your tail now. You are NOT yet in heaven. MANY feel like they are saved. IF you are correct, then MANY who think they are saved WILL be in HELL FOR ETERNITY and.....if YOU are one of them....I would bet 100 million dollars that you will judge God as unfair / partial / sick / evil / dumb!! ;).
     
  18. sorry, am referring to the post of KingJ, not yours...
     
  19. "These things I write unto you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life" (I Jn. 5:13). "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn. 5:24). Here are just two verses of several that tell us that eternal life is a present possession. John even says that he wrote his epistle in order that we might "know" that we have eternal life. Eternal life is life that will never end. Yes, I know I am saved because of where I have placed my faith and that is in the Son of the Living God who came to this earth and died for me. In the John 5 passage, Jesus even said that we who have heard his word and believed upon Him not only have [present tense] eternal life, but they are no longer moving toward judgment but have [aorist tense] passed from death unto life." I don't doubt for a moment that there are many people who think they are saved for all the wrong reasons. Paul asserts, "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof...." The Pharisees in the gospels and Acts believed they were in tight with God because they had "done" all the right things. But in the process of doing things, they rejected the Messiah. They were very religious but lost.
     
    Mr. Darby likes this.
  20. You are over-reacting. I called Jack no such! If I did you have every right to rebuke me!! I regard Jack as a brother in Christ.
     

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