Learning Genesis Take 2

Many questions Tubby and as pointed out before this is all going somewhere and the where it is all going is the point (it ain;t a science book) but yes there were only required 7 pairs of each clean animal (a male and a female, hence by twos) and two pairs of unclean animals, of each basic genomic type necessary to replenish (even modern Molecular Geneticists believe all varieties of dogs came form 9 earliest pairs but I suggest it was even less...but don't worry science will catch up to the Bible one day as it has already in so many places).

Secondly, I believe the world at this time was in a state similar to what you would know as Pangea...one huge central landmass...as to the number of years that's a debatable point even in Christian circles...the Bishop Ussher method of counting time by the generations IMO is faulty (though some might disagree, and that's okay with me)...

But if we begin with the minimum basic numbers of pairs (not counting all insects and sea life) there may have been 1,000 pairs necessary and the size of the Ark calculated could easily house them...the ratio/dimensions were used by scientists in the late 19th and 20th century to revolutionize cargo shipping.

“Loyd's Register of Shipping“, reveals that the entire service of modern Cargo Shipping, was aided immensely by the detailed analysis of the structural dimensions of the Ark of Noah. By regarding the Biblical proportions of the Ark, shipbuilding was literally transformed. Ships alleged to be the same external cubic footage, were able store an entire 1/3 more Cargo. By 1900, almost all Cargo ships were built according to these ratios, and with this structural style in mind. The discovery was made in 1609 by a Mennonite Brother named Jansen, who constructed a scale model of the craft and found this to be true. Since then many others have done the exact same thing only full scale, with never a point of contention.

This peculiar (at the time unfathomable) structural design also reduces the probability of capsizing to a narrow minimum. Today we have even more incredible designs and capabilities but still this is an amazing testimony.

A Dr. Henry Morris, one of today’s foremost authorities on modern Hydraulics, did a number of tests on the shape and structural stability of an Ark like craft, with simulated torrential rains, incredible winds, and giant mock tidal actions. He found a structure like the Ark could not be capsized. It could literally tip up to nearly 180 degrees, and still fall back onto its belly. Dr. Morris concluded that the ratios and proportions of Noah’s Ark make for an almost infallible and unsinkable ship.

in His love

brother Paul
 
Much was destroyed and swept into huge drainage ditches (as the waters receded) by the "allocthonous process" such as we see at the LeBrea Tarpits where many fauna and plants from varied geo-physical areas are matted down upon one another (over 1,000 species of plants, insect, and animal kind, have been counted there)....many were not however and all the seeds were sprouting roots...and many were left in tact...as we see quite clearly in natures record a wonderful mystery happens...in that even in areas of cooled magma plants grow and work their way through...

When first discovered, the presence of these fossil pits, formed by an allocthonous process, literally baffled many of the researchers and scientists that had already been indoctrinated into the faith based Neo-Darwinian bias. They simply had no intelligent alternate explanation, and the presence of these phenomena, clearly refuted what their mentors had convinced them was true. For some they simply made up creative explanations that did not really match the facts, however students reading textbooks would never notice the difference.

The LeBrea Tarpits story you learn in schools is an excellent example of this intentional manipulation of facts designed to propagandize their rhetoric. The Tar Pits are not a place where slow moving dinos got stuck then others followed in trying to eat them. It is place of drainage where over 1,000 species of plant, animal and insect are compiled. Many are from distant geophysical locations (facts “selectively excluded” from public school textbooks).

Many of the perpetrators try to offer various excuses for the individual finds, one excuse for this one, a different attempt at explanation for another, and so on. This kind of inconsistency is not science, it is speculation, and it amounts to nothing more than grasping at straws to support a theory rather than letting the facts dictate and shape the theory. However, none of their explanations reasonably accounts for all these phenomena, and few tell the whole truth about even just one of these sites.

As the waters receded these fossil pits were formed dragging all sorts of debris into them...one of my favorites was found in Tibet...pressure flattened elephant bones imbedded with sea shells and various types of trees and even human remains....way up in the Tibetan mountains...amazing!
 
When first discovered, the presence of these fossil pits, formed by an allocthonous process, literally baffled many of the researchers and scientists that had already been indoctrinated into the faith based Neo-Darwinian bias. They simply had no intelligent alternate explanation,

Darwinian theory is not faith based however many times you repeat it BP. On the contrary, believing that 16,000 animal, insect and bird 'species' somehow became 2 million in 4000 years is such a twist of logic and falsehoods as to be almost laughable. It's either a literal story of the flood or it isn't. I find the distortion of scientific observation to fit the Noah and his ark tales does not do you much credit, and for that reason I'm going to move on as I want to get through Genesis this year.
 
Neo-Darwinian and Darwinian are not the same...for example Darwin would say men and apes share a common ancestor, neo-Darwinians always try and demonstrate the ancestor to be an ape. And if you read my post I did not say XYZ amount of species developed in a mere 4000 years...I am not YEC in any dogmatic sense of that term...and never really bought into it. God COULD have done all this (and even created the Universe) in a very short time (He is God)...even with the impression of age already in place, but I do not believe that that was necessarily what He did nor that His not doing it in a 4,000 year time is necessarily all there is to this story. As for external evidences IF the neo-Darwinian Chronology or the Bishop Ussher Chronology is correct, THEN it would not be possible in 4,000 years by natural means.

And sorry but yes at its most basic levels "Neo-Darwinism" is faith based (and full of manipulative misrepresentation of fact and interpreting of data to fit the theory rather than shaping it). This was important to realize in the context of my comment because they teach a known falsehood regarding the tarpits to innocently inquiring public school children (over and over, generation after generation) as if it is the reliable truth when they know it is not (the Geobbels principle). The truth about them I revealed is just supportive of the story. Just as they do with so many other mis-statements of fact.

Ever read "The Peppered Moth" in your average Public School biology text? What a bunch of malarky! You know as well as I it is a gross misrepresentation intended to impress or imprint and assumption they want thought of as a conclusion.

You seemed to skip right over the important information of the post relative to the previous posts...
 
Neo-Darwinian and Darwinian are not the same...for example Darwin would say men and apes share a common ancestor, neo-Darwinians always try and demonstrate the ancestor to be an ape. And if you read my post I did not say XYZ amount of species developed in a mere 4000 years...I am not YEC in any dogmatic sense of that term...and never really bought into it. God COULD have done all this (and even created the Universe) in a very short time (He is God)...even with the impression of age already in place, but I do not believe that that was necessarily what He did nor that His not doing it in a 4,000 year time is necessarily all there is to this story. As for external evidences IF the neo-Darwinian Chronology or the Bishop Ussher Chronology is correct, THEN it would not be possible in 4,000 years by natural means.

And sorry but yes at its most basic levels "Neo-Darwinism" is faith based (and full of manipulative misrepresentation of fact and interpreting of data to fit the theory rather than shaping it). This was important to realize in the context of my comment because they teach a known falsehood regarding the tarpits to innocently inquiring public school children (over and over, generation after generation) as if it is the reliable truth when they know it is not (the Geobbels principle). The truth about them I revealed is just supportive of the story. Just as they do with so many other mis-statements of fact.

Ever read "The Peppered Moth" in your average Public School biology text? What a bunch of malarky! You know as well as I it is a gross misrepresentation intended to impress or imprint and assumption they want thought of as a conclusion.

You seemed to skip right over the important information of the post relative to the previous posts...


I think I heard about "The Peppered Moth" story when I was attending Christian classes in High School. I think that was about the time they told me that dinosaurs never existed as well.

From my understanding there were dark colored moths and light colored moths and the evolutionists said they were evolving into different colors based on needs. Is that right? It's been probably ten years since I heard it so I can't remember much.

I have heard that there were less kinds of animals back then too. I wouldn't have a problem believing that if the story was a lot older than it is.
 
From my understanding there were dark colored moths and light colored moths and the evolutionists said they were evolving into different colors based on needs. Is that right? It's been probably ten years since I heard it so I can't remember much.

Pretty much but the purpose of the deception was to imply "neo-Darwinian" natural selection...such that random birds ate the moths in their white stage because the darker colored moths were more easily camouflaged against the darker colors of the bark and foliage...the truth was an outside (scupulous) intelligent force GLUED the white moths to the tree so they could not escape...here is the truth...I call it

Paul's corrected Peppered Moth Theory...

In the rare probability of the absence of normal foods for particular birds, and if these moths in the natural white phase of their consistently unchanged DNA are unnaturally glued or pinned to a darker tree bark by an outside intelligent force, and their darker counterparts are left free to fly and escape at will, the lighter colored, intentionally glued, or securely attached moths, will have a lesser chance of survival, and may be eaten by certain types of hungry birds, thus proving the necessity for intelligent deceit, and willful outside intelligent intervention to enhance an already unnatural selection, or at least, in order to produce the illusion of a natural selection, to the gullible minds of innocent trusting school children without their or their parent’s consent“!

That my brother IS THE truth...

brother Paul
 
Ok, good arguments, lets move on..

Gen 7:17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. 18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. 20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.

I get the idea, everything wiped out because man was turning out a bit rotten by all accounts. Presumably this means 7 metres above the highest mountain? I'm sure you have explanations about where all this water came from but I can't see it really so I'll move quickly on.
 
And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.' And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so. (Genesis 1:6, 7 YLT98)

This is not my interpretation or my idea, I heard this from a pastor friend of mine and found it interesting. Take it or leave it I'm just sharing. The waters above the expanse was actually ice surrounding the planet providing the water for the flood combined with the water from all the underground springs. Until this time, no rain had ever fallen. Like I said, take it or leave it, just sharing.
 
Ok, good arguments, lets move on..

Gen 7:17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. 18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. 20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.

I get the idea, everything wiped out because man was turning out a bit rotten by all accounts. Presumably this means 7 metres above the highest mountain? I'm sure you have explanations about where all this water came from but I can't see it really so I'll move quickly on.

The water mostly came from the deep...for which there is physical evidence of two types...one the waters discovered recently below the crust which is greater than all the oceans and two the work of Dr. Richard Brown, a former Physicist from the U.S. Defense Department, confirming one of the most ignored details of the flood story, and that is, that most of the water came not from above in the atmosphere, but from under the ground. He determined that in one day in the remote past, the earth’s crust MAY HAVE (definitely speculating on the evidence he saw) literally cracked and split, possibly caused by a massive colliding comet or some other cataclysmic force. It turns out this splitting of the crust wraps all the way around the world, as witnessed by the oceanic ridge, which is as Dr. Brown points out, “like the seam on a baseball.”

According to his theory, the subterranean water must have exploding under great pressure “would have shot up from the broken crust about twenty miles into the atmosphere”, descending everywhere as rain, snow, or ice. The clincher is, that Dr. Brown estimates, that whatever happened that split the earth’s crust, was so powerful, that it caused all major rifts to occur within “a span of about three hour’s time“.

Therefore, if his estimates are correct (though not attributing its cause to God), literally “all the fountains“ of the deep actually were broken up, “in the same day“!

Also 15 cubits above the mountain tops does not equal 7 metres...15 cubits (depending on the length of the forearm of the man...a small person maybe 15 inches...a Shaq O'neil as long as 22 inches...the cubit was relative...

Just sharing...

brother Paul
 
And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.' And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so. (Genesis 1:6, 7 YLT98)

This is not my interpretation or my idea, I heard this from a pastor friend of mine and found it interesting. Take it or leave it I'm just sharing. The waters above the expanse was actually ice surrounding the planet providing the water for the flood combined with the water from all the underground springs. Until this time, no rain had ever fallen. Like I said, take it or leave it, just sharing.
I'm wondering where your pastor friend gets his info from. There is zilch evidence that there had been no rain prior to the flood.
When Adam was placed in the garden at Eden, there had at that time been no rain.......granted. But after that??
When the Lord told Noah that He was going to send rain, did he have to sit Noah down and give him a quick informational tutorial on meteorology?
Gen 7:4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground."
" Yes OK Lord, shall do.....ahh by the way, what is rain?
I'm sure Noah knew what rain was and so also no doubt those who might have asked him why he was building an ark on dry ground.
The fact that with Noah, the curse was lifted::

Gen 5:28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he fathered a son
Gen 5:29 and called his name Noah, saying, "Out of the ground that the LORD has cursed, this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands."

Is no proof that there had been no rain until then,,,indeed Lamech foresaw that the lifting of the curse would come from "out of the ground....." not out of the sky. Perhaps the breaking out of the fountains of the deep.......just wondering.
 
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It should also be considered as a reasonable scenario that with the geological upheaval that took place at that time the topography of the planet could understandably have undergone massive change. The Earth that then was might not have had incredibly high mountains like Mt Everest. So the required volume of water for a global flood may well have been far less than would be required today.
15 cubits by any arbitrary reckoning would have been easily achievable for the most skeptical of people if there had been no extremely high mountains.
 
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It should also be considered as a reasonable scenario that with the geological upheaval that took place at that time the topography of the planet could understandably have undergone massive change. The Earth that then was might not have had incredibly high mountains like Mt Everest. So the required volume of water for a global flood may well have been far less than would be required today.
15 cubits by any arbitrary reckoning would have been easily achievable for the most skeptical of people if there had been no extremely high mountains.
What are the sources for your 'reasonable scenario' and 'might not have had incredibly high mountains'?
 
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. 24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

Pretty straightforward stuff. No questions.
 
Gen 8:1 Then God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the animals that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided. 2 The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained. 3 And the waters receded continually from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters decreased. 4 Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month. In the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen.

Why did God 'remember' at this point? He instructed Noah to build his ark and gather animals to save them and then flooded the Earth to destroy everything. What was he doing that would make him forget about this?
 
Gen 8:6 So it came to pass, at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made. 7 Then he sent out a raven, which kept going to and fro until the waters had dried up from the earth.

This scripture is not intended to be sequential then? We've got through 150 days and now back to 40 days when he sends the Raven out.
 
Gen 8:8 He also sent out from himself a dove, to see if the waters had receded from the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot, and she returned into the ark to him, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took her, and drew her into the ark to himself. 10 And he waited yet another seven days, and again he sent the dove out from the ark. 11 Then the dove came to him in the evening, and behold, a freshly plucked olive leaf was in her mouth; and Noah knew that the waters had receded from the earth. 12 So he waited yet another seven days and sent out the dove, which did not return again to him anymore.

Ok so the dove was a backup test for the Raven. How did an Olive tree grow in this short period of time?
 
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