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Job 1:6-12; Satan In The Presence Of God

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. I find it intriguing that Satan was with the angels when they presented themselves to the Lord. I would like to have some discussion on:
    1. Satan being able to go with the angels to present themselves.
    2. Can evil be in the presence of God? Explanation of how Satan could be in the presence of God.
    3. God is the one who brings up Job as a challenge to Satan.
    4. Satan's attitude of God's blessings and protection are what make Job fear and follow God.
    5. Satan's challenge to God to strike Job with calamity and predicts Job will curse God.
    6. God can harm people and Satan can only when God allows him.

    NIV Job 1:
    6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

    Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

    8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

    9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

    12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

    Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
     
  2. Before you go too far, consider that many (including the vast majority of Jews) think of Job as allegory and not about actual events.

    Personally, I doubt that Satan could stand in the presence of God, even if for some odd reason he wanted to.
     
  3. It's amazing how six verses can have so much to say. I'm sure there's a denomination dedicated to Job somewhere :)

    Seriously though, Satan is a spiritual being so he has(?)/had access to God. I can't explain why except because Job says so. Satan was with Jesus in His temptations. Personally I do not believe after the Resurrection that he had further access to the Lord, but I don't have anything to back that up except the comment of Jesus to Mary about not having yet presented Himself to the Father. Since He completed on earth the shadows of what is in heaven, my guess is that He presented His blood to the Father on the altar in heaven cleansing it from the sin of the devil.

    God didn't throw Job under the bus, but allowed Job to understand his error in judging God. What was his error?

    Job 3:25-26 (KJV)
    For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

    Job lacked:
    Safety: in Hebrew to be tranquil
    Rest: appeased quietness
    Quiet: be confident

    He was full of fear. This is borne out of the fear he had for his children always doing sacrifices for them to God on their behalf "in case" they sinned. This underlying issue comes about because, though he feared God, it was the fear of dread and not fear of awe he had for God. In his great frustration he said:

    Job 16:21 (KJV)
    O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man [pleadeth] for his neighbour!

    But, there is One who pleads for us, even before being incarnate, Jesus.

    Just some thoughts...
     
  4. Great points to discuss!!

    For me, it sounds like satan could stand in the presence of Lord.. Because we are also told that satan is the accuser and Jesus Christ is our advocate.. May be he will accuse us in front of God.. And in this case, the direct interpretation is, satan was in the presence of God..

    Some people disagree with this.. But I look at it this way only.. God being ruler over satan also, knows exactly what satan would do.. But God has better plans for Job all through this..

    God can do anything! But I don't think he harmed Job.. He was utilizing satan's strategy for making Job a better person.. Remove the fear and everything from him..
     
  5. Truly missing the message here. Satan is the tempter; he has a job to do as well. Even Satan bows before God. God asked Satan, "have you considered my servant Job?" Satan replied to the Lord about the hedge of protection He had around Job and his family. God said, "I will take it down"; and gave Satan strict orders; " you can do anything you want to Job, but you can not take his life; it belongs to me." And Satan went to Job. Job went through a great testing of faith and withstood many trails. and would not turn his face from God. Even his buddies encouraged him to turn away from God. He would not. His wife cursed God; Job stunk so bad she would not let him in her house. The dogs licked his feet. Amen. Job held true to God.

    As we know in the NT; All power belongs to God. All things are of God. However, all good things come from God. Satan can not come to you that he has not been sent to test your faith. That is not to say you have been tempted of God; God tempts no man. That job belongs to Satan. There is one God; God the Creator of all things. Colossians 1:16. When one comes to know this; consider the joy one can have even in trails and the testing of ones faith. Amen. God is in control.
     
  6. I was always taught that God allowed Satan to mess with Job as well. I've been listening to the other argument that God didn't allow this but that Jobs lack of Faith invited Satan in for the problems he was facing. MichaelH would be a good one on this thread. I would like to see how he explains it. I believe it has something to do with Job sacrificing for his children out of fear for them and not out of Faith.
     
  7. The Holy Ghost, the only true Teacher, has taught me. Lets consider the very first that God told Satan.

    Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, (God talking), Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    Now, does that sound like (according to the Word of the Lord) that Job was a man of no faith?

    Job did not sacrifice his kids they were killed by Satan. God told Satan that he had to spare Job's life (not the kids), because Job's life belongs to me. Amen. Job lost everything; but Job would not turn away from God. He said, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." Amen. However, when the great faith test and trials were complete, God restored Job with everything plus so much more. Amen.
     
  8. Interesting. I have not heard that take before on Job being fearful about his children, or lacking faith. I think Job shows great faith in the adversity he faces. But I believe he had great doubts about his children's faith. This brings to mind the concept of being able to pray for another person's salvation, whether it holds any sway with God. It is an individual's choice of acceptance, but what about the external factors which influence the potential savee, to coin a term. :) You never know what experiences can cause the unsaved sinner to feel the conviction then be open to the need for Christ.
     

  9. I didn't say Job sacrificed his children. I said he performed sacrifices on behalf of his children out of fear not faith. Read the entire book of Job and he admits that he was fearful for his children.
     
  10. UGH! The NIV is such a terrible translation (especially verse 12)....Satan is still an angel and judgment day has not come yet. He still can enter into the angelic realm...He is not yet cast into the lake (eternally separated from God) though the omniscient Lord knows he will never repent of his rebellious self-lordship...
     
  11. MMK, here is KJ version

    6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

    7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

    8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

    11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

    I don't see much difference in translations.
     
  12. It is interesting that Satan says to God "If you would harm him then he would curse you" (paraphrasing). But God turns it around and says, "Ok, just to show you, you can harm him and we will see."
     
  13. Big Moose...you are correct it really does not make much difference...I stand corrected, thanks. Did you know though that in the Hebrew the word for the man himself is absent? The sentence actually only reads do not stretch forth your hand...

    So in the NIV "but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

    Who gave him the boils? Satan or God? Is his body not the himself implied or is it? I am asking all because this is confusing here...if God meant the physical himself then who struck him with this malady?
     
  14. Job had respect for God, but Job still was afraid. Someone can believe God and exalt him, yet still vacillate in their faith by walking in the flesh in fear of certain things. Someone can let the Holy Spirit work through them in some ways and in others block the Spirit because of fear.

    Job said, "What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me" (Job 3:25)

    Job feared which is what opened the way for Satan to come in. Job was not placing his faith in God regarding His children.

    By the way the Holy Ghost the only true teacher has taught me and yet we differ. However, I have scripture to back up what I am saying.
     
  15. <Who gave him the boils? Satan or God?> Your confusion is cleared in chapter 2:1-7.
    1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
    2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

    3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

    4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

    5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

    7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
     
  16. God only lifts His hand of protection, such as in America, and evil ensues.
     
  17. Right! So he actually did effect the man himself...
     
  18. So sad but so true...
     
  19. Well, I have been asked to chime in. Job is such an amazing book.

    Let's get some facts straight about Job and you can compare notes. I have been studying this book for years and have read through the whole thing several times.

    I'll get scriptures if anyone need them.................

    Job is a REAL EVENT....................... cough....cough.... Glomung.......... (Yes I read everyone post carefully before responding)

    Job is not about the WHY...............................

    It's about a right standing man going through some horrible adversity. When bad things happen to Good people type of thing. Job through the whole ordeal complains constantly that he is righteous and did nothing wrong to deserve what happened to him. In fact Job said that there is no point in even serving God. (Same thing the folks said in Malachi and God was not to happy with them either)

    For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment. Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression. What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water? Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men. For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.
    (Job 34:5-9)

    We have a man basing his blessings on his own right standing. He did serve God, and through that God made Job rich. Unlike David though, Job did not have a relationship with God. Job believed that to make God happy, you continue to jump through the hoops and don't dare speak a bad thing about God, or else God will smite you. Job did not understand the Love of God, but Job knew how to be a servant.

    So, when bad things started to happen, Job was upset because he felt that He did nothing wrong naturally for God to do these things to him. Job did not have a revelation about Satan, and hence Job believed God was the one that harmed him and murdered his children.

    So, Job is about what not to do, when things Go bad. It's not time to get help from God based on our good works, and it's not time to ask why bad things are happening. It's time to ask the Lord for help, and trust in God. Job never asked God for help (you have not because you ask not- James)

    As in lots of situations, We don't know everything. Job certainly did not know the why and should not have been focused on the why.

    Some Brief Facts, I'll go into detail if asked, with Scriptures.

    1) God never changes. God is consistent from Genises to Revelation. God not one time ever allowed the devil in to destroy someone that served him. When things went wrong for someone, we see clearly in scripture what happened. David lost his child (God make the child sick) Moses missed the promise land (Beating rocks and not speaking to rocks) King Saul lost his Kingship and life. (God said King Saul just won't obey me) Job is no different, we just don't clearly see what Job did.

    2) No deal made, God not proving anything to the devil: God did not use the devil because the devil challenged God. In fact, Satan has Zero truth in him and I can promise God could care less what Satan was talking about. (John 8:44) In fact, Satan is a created angel, and a disobedient one at that. God has ZERO to prove anything to something he created. It's like trying to prove to our car how we are right and the car is wrong. Makes ZERO Sense.

    3) Job actually did what the devil said he would do. We can thank our translators for this mess up...... Correctly translated in Hebrew the scripture should read........

    YLT:
    The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!'
    (Job 1:11)

    Satan did not use the Hebrew Word for Curse and he had a choice of 3 great ones but used the Word to Bless instead. BARAK.

    Barak means to bless back, also translated to Salute back, to acknowledge back. In other words Satan told God that Job would Charge God for the evil done to him.

    And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed (BARAK) be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
    (Job 1:21-22)

    We see Job blamed God for taking away, but another narrative by the Holy Spirit steps in right after Job's statement and lets us know that Job did not charge God in a foolish way but a respectful way of not understanding.

    4) God never made any deal with the devil, God said it was without cause to harm Job:
    We have to understand what is going on through two spiritual beings. God is watching Satan messing with Job. Satan presents himself and God is not clueless as to why the devil is there saying, Have you considered my servant Job, there is none upright like Job. Satan goes into a thing about a hedge and Job only servers God because God made Job rich.

    Job served God before getting rich, it was Job's obedience that caused Job's wealth. So Satan's argument is just a lie, smoke and mirrors. Satan wants to get his paws on Jobs things because with wealth, Satan can influence others. Satan minds the Things of men.......... (Jesus said)
    Satan tells God that if you hurt him God then Job will curse thee.... (BARAK)

    Now, the deal was for God to harm Job. God never did that, never acknowledged Satans deal, never amended the deal, never agreed to the deal. God's response to Satan wanting him to harm Job was.......... pay attention stupid, all that Job has is in your hands anyway.

    Here is the part believers have issues with. Job gave Satan a place, God knows it, and the Devil knows it trying to twist things around to get God to break his Word and harm Job. All God said is pay attention......... The Hebrew word for Behold means to look and see. There is no permissive Hebrew Verb in there at all. The hedge is already down, and we should not pay attention to anything the devil had to say. The devil lied in Genesis and the devil lied to Jesus, and guess what? The devil is lying to God with some song and dance.

    In other words, just for the book of Job, the devil did not put on his Sunday's best and was being honest with God.

    God said..............

    Job 2:3
    And the Lord said to the Satan, Have you taken note of my servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a man without sin and upright, fearing God and keeping himself far from evil? and he still keeps his righteousness, though you have been moving me to send destruction on him without cause.

    You read that? Everything that the devil did to Job, God considered it to be without a cause or purpose. So much for the theory of God testing Job or proving anything to the devil. God's own words. If folks would read to chapter 2, they would see that verse...........


    5) Why did God not stop the devil? If there was no purpose in harming Job?

    I am going to make a very serious statement and something we need to learn from Job............. God could not stop the devil, because doing so would mean God would have to break his own Word. That will never happen.

    Elihu tells us why though, the guy that spoke right about God. Elihu also tells us God is not in the business of murdering someone's children that serve God.

    Elihu:
    For he gives to every man the reward of his work, and sees that he gets the fruit of his ways.
    (Job 34:11)
    .
    Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
    Having someone's Children Murdered is EVIL, it's Wicked!!! folks for those confused about good and evil........ NOT GOD, He don't do that.

    God also does not pervert judgement of what His Word said....... he won't stop it.
    Elihu said Job was to get the Fruit of his ways, the ways Job had been acting. Keep in mind that fruit, we will get back to that....... FRUIT OF YOUR WAY.

    Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

    Elihu is telling us right here that if people have understanding, then they know God had ZERO to do with harming Job's Children, making him sick and taking his stuff.

    6) What exactly did Job do?

    If Job had sinned like David, we would know exactly what Job did............... David had someones husband killed to hid a pregnancy. That is murder. Not doing Murder or killing is mentioned about 27 times in scriptures.

    HOWEVER....................

    58 times it's mentioned to Fear NOT
    48 Times to be no afraid
    many times to be of good courage, take no thought, Worry about nothing, cast care on God.................

    Job did not have faith or trust in God. Job acted his whole life out of fear of loosing things and Job's biggest fear was getting God upset so that bad things might come on him. Job did not have a love relationship with God like David. Job obeyed God out of obedient fear of him.

    Satan used this against Job, and it started with Job's kids for they may be cursing God Job, and you know what happens if you curse God Job........... Bad things happen Job if someone curses God........ Your kids Job, they are in danger, they might be cursing God.

    So Job out of fear of loss (Not faith in God) sacrificed for his kids an animal each time they came together for they might have cursed God............ Thus JOB DID CONTINUALLY.

    Job also had the Sabeans and the Chaldeans he was constantly worried about. Two bad groups in the area. He did everything he knew to stay protected from them.........

    Satan used that theme............. Curse God and die............ We see it in Job's head for his own kids, we see Satan bring it up to God we see Job's wife saying............. (Why hold onto your integrity, CURSE GOD AND DIE)

    Same thing Satan does to people today to get a place, use the same thoughts, same theme, and if a person acts on those things, Satan gets a place that is rightfully his to destroy, kill, and steal.

    For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

    (Job 3:25)

    Fear not, fear not, fear not God warned 58 times. More than he warned about breaking any other commandment.

    no scriptural bases to believe the "Sons of God" is actually speaking of angels................. it was only used a few times in the OT and the Word for spirit or angel is not there. More the case those God heard presented themselves and Satan just followed their sacrifice and prayer.

    blessings.
     
  20. On that Hebrew word <barak> which is translated mostly as a form of bless, also as curse, looking it up on Strong's Concordance, I get the impression that a good translation for English is credit. God can credit you with good or bad. Just as credit in our language can confer good things or bad, so also could barak in Hebrew. Is this a good analogy?
     

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