Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. I disagree. Grace abounded from day 1. The blood covenant needed to enter heaven only after the cross. Hence Abraham's bosom.
    I disagree. If you have been in a strict school you will see the extreme rules as a curse. Especially when you don't love or care about the principal.

    Nobody was qualified to be IN a relationship with God by obeying the law. You have the cart before the horse here. Abraham was faithful, not perfectly obedient. David was faithful and if you read Psalms you will see how much he loved God and how often he repented and begged forgiveness. Nineveh, a non-Jewish city who did not even know the law, yet God spared them because their hearts were touched and they repented of their wickedness. Unless our hearts are touched / 'in it' we cannot repent sincerely / be 'faithful' and we dare not mention relationship! think about it! Hence Jesus accuses the pharisees accordingly in Matt 15:7-9.

    Nothing has changed from Adam and Eve's time to now! Mankind has always needed to come to God on His terms!!! The need for a contrite heart, broken spirit (Psalms 51:17), humble as a child have been God's requirements for man from day one! Not just after Christ! and dare we think we can accept Jesus / God without kneeling and humbling ourselves!

    Ryan I cannot believe you just said this! What should be the foundation…the Torah? This shows you have completely missed the boat. Imagine I said to my wife, her diary is the foundation of our marriage. The foundation is Christ / God. We ONLY get Christ / God in our lives if we accept Him on His terms as mentioned. Once He is IN our lives, we desire to live a life that pleases Him. We consider all His written work. But because our hearts are in it we will be quick to repent (something the Torah cannot give us). Quick to judge ourselves (something the Torah cannot give us). Quick to show mercy to others (something the Torah cannot give us) and grasp the reasoning behind laws (something the Torah cannot give us) / grasp the mercy, love, grace, righteousness and goodness (something the Torah cannot give us) that flows from God.
    Think about how silly this reasoning is. Do you honestly think that God is ONLY pleased by a few hundred, thousand laws written in the Torah???? My wife has more demands of me in her diary! The OT and the Torah were there as guidelines / shadow of the full revelation to come with Jesus. A revelation that those faithful to God in the OT had already touched on. Do you not see how Psalms seems out of place with Deuteronomy and Leviticus?
    You are making too much of the Jews being His chosen people. All of mankind is His chosen people. The Jews were chosen specifically for a single purpose of being the bloodline of Jesus…hence God wanted them to appear / be holier then other races. Hence God sent powerful prophets to enforce His laws. God basically forced the Jews to be a holier race. That is why God will give them a second chance in the tribulation. The people of Nineveh who never knew the laws but repented were just as holy as the holiest of the Jews werent they?

    God has never changed the rules. You have to grasp where our effort is best placed. Is it in studying and practicing the laws of the OT? When we now have the FULL revelation of God's law….in the two laws Jesus told us to live by. If we obey those two then all the 'necessary' laws of the OT will be obeyed.

    This merely shows that the devil doesn't see the need to attack Judaism.
    You miss scripture saying that Jesus is / should be the foundation? I would tread carefully telling anyone that the Torah should be the foundation.
    Did Jesus work on a Sunday? Did Jesus not go against the 'law' when He saved Mary from being stoned?????

    We are to grasp God's heart behind the law and out of love / sincerity of heart / judging ourselves with fear and trembling, consider / obey the OT. Not follow it 'religiously' / blindly like the pharisees.

    Lol, no. Jews hold on to the law religiously because they had prophets like Elijah whipping them in line. It takes some explaining to get them to the point where they see Jesus for the King He is. Riding into town on a donkey did not help in convincing them :). I can fully understand why God feels it is justified to give them a second chance.
  2. Peeved? No. I like your posts. Has a certain amount of wittiness to them that I like. Besides, Calvin comic books was a nice favorite past time of mine growing up. Sigh...when life was more simpler. Snow job in Canada is related to hockey and stopping right in front of a goalie leaned over throwing ice in their face blinding them. Funny, I just thought of this. If you had the same term, but we thought of different things, how much more difficult is it for us to interpret the scriptures if we don't have the context of the time. 1AN touched on the idioms back a page that nobody responded too, and we just learnt about some idioms in our Hayesod class yesterday. That's why I have choosen to learn the bible from the roots that it came from. Those roots have passages like the ox and donkey yoked together that had a purpose beyond just the literal. But the literal also meant something too. We have to get out of our 21st century thinking, and put ourselves in their shoes back then.

    I know, I know I'm not the moral police...but please. These rituals were Holy to the Lord.

    Psalm 51:10-12 "Create in me a pure heart,O God,
    and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
    11 Do not cast me from your presence
    or take your Holy Spirit from me.
    12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
    and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me."

    So King David (the rich kid) was saying to the Hebrew boy (poor kid), "Na na na na na na, I got some ice cream and you ain't no got some. You gotta wait for Jesus, na na na na na na." So for hundreds of years, this was read on the Sabbath and people were envious of when they would get the Spirit like David. I cannot believe that. God was always consistent loving the kings that loved him, and the slaves that loved him equally.

    Of course I agree, there are different layers to this verse from the literal to the spiritual. Didn't disagree and I explained this on this same page you quoted.
  3. I never said it didn't.'s sad when you still think the Torah was given to enslave his people and were extreme rules. I will again gladly share this passage, from the Word of God indicating otherwise.
    Deuteronomy 30:11-14 " Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it." And if you are splitting hairs about being in a relationship, being a believer, or being saved, or born again, I use them meaning the same thing.

    Believe it baby. Have you not read John 1? "...and the Word was God." Jesus is our foundation. Jesus was the walking Torah. He lived the sinless life according to his perfect will and precepts. Change your mind now?

    Yeah if you did that, she should boot you out the door, cause that's legalism and we're now under grace.

    Taught us to repent Numbers 14:20 "The LORD replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked."

    Leviticus 23:26-32 This is the Day of Atonement when one was to look within themselves and seek forgiveness for their sins. But was taught, this was an ongoing occurrence, not just an event that happened once a year. It was about true introspection and seeking forgiveness of sins, and looking inward to make the necessary changes.

    Exodus 23:4 "If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him." This mitzvah talked specifically about even helping your enemy in need. Of course their was the deeper meaning, not the literal.

    Umm...I'll have to quote from Genesis to Deuteronomy then. All those things are in there. Just read and study it.

    Yes because that is what the entire bible is based on. Everything else is commentary. And there is 613 commandments.

    That's legalism and were now under grace. Boot her out the door.

    God wishes nobody to perish. Yes God did set apart Israel, but I don't know if the sole purpose was to bring forth the Messiah. You would have to provide scripture for that.

    I don't know where you have been minus the years you have been alive, but civilization has sought to destroy Israel and the Jews from the get go. The Christian's have nothing on the Jews when it comes to being persecuted. If you do some research, you will find it was Christianity were the perpetrators of many of the anti-semitism towards the Jews. Martin Luther was an outspoken anti-semite. Read the "Jews and their Lies." It's interesting. The devil always sought to destroy Israel, cause if he could, then prophecy could never be fulfilled. Be forewarned of another period anti-semitism. I believe it is closer then we think. And not just within the Arab and Muslim world.

    Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God. Because Jesus is my Messiah, his Torah is my foundation.

    Of course he worked on Sunday, it's not the Sabbath. Friday to Saturday is the Sabbath of which he observed it according to the commandments. What story about Mary being stoned? Don't know that one. If it was about the adulteress women, I posted something on page 9 I believe if that is what you were referencing.

    Amen. Obey the weightier issues of the law first and foremost. Who cares how long your tallitz are if you can't help the poor. I stand by what I said about evangelizing the Jews though. :)
  4. Ryan, you posted: "I know, I know I'm not the moral police...but please. These rituals were Holy to the Lord."
    Yes I know, there is no disrespect there. I guess it is a bit like the word 'Gay" that used to mean happy, merry frolicsome and :confused: .

    From the Merriam Webster on-line dictionary: re 'Cult' ('Cultic' is merely the adjectival form):
    1 formal religious veneration : worship
    2 a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
    3 a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
    4 a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
    5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion
    c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
    I'd look at definitions 1 & 2 here. So, I trust that you can see that I meant nothing profane by what I said.......still it is good that you raised the point as others might also be offended or confused etc.:)

    Re Psa 51:10-12. the bid here is to 'create'. The Holy Spirit is not a Created Spirit it is integral with the Godhead being the 3rd person of the Trinity.
    David knew that he was a mess looking for someone to clean up. So he turned to the Lord for a dose of spring cleaning.
  5. Matthew 9:11
    The Pharisees were indignant. "Why does your teacher eat with such scum ?" they asked his disciples. When he heard this, Jesus replied, "Healthy people don't need a doctor -- sick people do." Then he added, "Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture (Hosea 6:6) 'I want you to be merciful; I don't want your sacrifices.' (1 Samuel 15:22) NLT

    The Pharisees had never learned the meaning of this passage, which teaches that kind hearts and helpful deeds are more pleasing to God than outward ceremonial that does no good to anyone. Love and mercy should have priority which Jesus expressed in his life and work. The New Covenant replaces outward show or ritual into 'works of the heart' that are beneficial to everyone.

    Matthew 9:16-17
    And who would patch an old garment with unshrunk cloth? For the patch shrinks and pulls away from the old cloth, leaving an even bigger hole than before. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. The old skins would burst from the pressure, spilling the wine and ruining the skins. New wine must be stored in new wineskins. That way both the wine and the wineskins are preserved." NLT

    Judaism is the 'old garment' and the 'old skin' Christianity is the 'new cloth' and the 'new wine' and just as the ox and the ass are similar it is best not to put them together. The ass and the ox if yoked together would go round in circles due to one being stronger than the other and they would not plow a straight furrow.

    Reasons Behind the Mitzvah
    Although the mitzvah of shatnes is a chok, one for which the Torah offers no explanation or rationale, we nevertheless find in the commentaries several clues as to why the Torah specifically precludes a wool and linen mixture. The Rambam, in his Moreh Nevuchim, states that in ancient times sorcerers, in performing their witchcraft and in communicating with "demons", frequently used garments composed of both wool and linen. To prevent us from being associated in any way with these evil practices, our Torah forbids us from wearing clothing containing this mixture.

    14-18. Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers. The figure is drawn from the prohibition of Deut. 22:10 and Lev. 19:19 Deut. 22:10 and Lev. 19:19 . The meaning is that Christians are not to pair off with unbelievers. All intimate associations are forbidden. The primary reference is to intermarriage and to association in heathen festivals. All close fellowship with unbelievers is included. Saints should choose Christian alliances and associations. 15. What concord hath Christ with Belial? Belial, a heathen god like Beelzebub, is used as a synonym for Satan. See Matt. 12:24 . As Christ has nothing in common with Satan, how can a believer in him have a close intimacy with one who is still under the dominion of the prince of this world? 16. What agreement hath the temple of God with idols? As God's temple has nothing in common with the idol temple, so the saints are to be separated from idolators. For ye are the temple of the living God. The Christian is himself the sanctuary of the Lord, as is proved by the passage quoted from Lev. 26:12 . God dwells in his people as the Shekinah dwelt between the cherubim. 17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, etc. Quoted from Isa. 52:11 . A call to Israel to cleanse itself from pagan pollutions. 18. And I will be a Father unto you. Quoted from Jeremiah 31:1 Jeremiah 31:9 Isa. 43:6 , and other passages. It is a free combination of the spirit of several passages. The two passages teach that it is the Divine will that his worshipers should be separate from the world; that if they are thus separate he will receive them, and will accept them as his own children. Compare Rom. 12:2 and James 1:27 .

    NOTE ON MIXED MARRIAGES.--"The unequal yoking" covers the question of marriage between Christians and irreligious persons. The whole spirit of the Bible is against the practice. Marriages of the "sons of God" with the "daughters of men" caused the sins which brought on the Flood ( Gen. 6:1-7 ). Alien marriages were forbidden to Israel ( Exod. 34:16 Deuteronomy 7:3 Deuteronomy 7:4 ); this was the pit into which Samson fell ( Judges 14:3 ); to this cause was due the fall of Solomon ( 1 Kings 11:1-10 ); Ezra made the Jews put away alien wives ( Ezra 9:10 ), and in the discussion of the subject in /Commentaries/PeoplesNewTestament/pnt.cgi?book=re&chapter=002#" the whole implication is that intermarriage with unbelievers was out of the question. The widow is only allowed to marry a Christian ( 1 Cor. 7:39 ).
  6. Go read your reply to Major....

    Ryan, that is a simple example, why you confusing it so?

    You are not grasping legalism and what Christianity is all about. You say you do but you clearly do not.
    and obeying the Torah word for word is not legalism...:rolleyes:

    Unless you are a changed person inside..........

    Yes it is obvious the devil hates the Jews, but what he hates more then the Jews is people knowing the the being Christian...hence he attacks Christians with confusion....his chief enemy is people properly grasping the word of God.
    This is heresy Ryan please read 1 Cor 3:11. The first 5 books / Torah is NOT the word of God. The bible is. Why are you excluding the NT ?????
    The adulteress and Mary both deserved stoning. I believe Mary was a prostitute. It doesn't matter what you posted on page 9, you are dodging.
  7. Ryan, if the Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking Shabbat you can bet your bottom dollar it was the Sabbath and not a different day.

    You said this, "Of course he worked on Sunday, it's not the Sabbath. Friday to Saturday is the Sabbath of which he observed it according to the commandments..."
  8. The word is Holy Spirit, the "Ruach Qodesh" (H6944, H7307). It's the same Spirit before Jesus, and the same after. I cannot believe God would dispense the Holy Spirit like a Betty Crocker cookbook with a "dash here" and a "dash there" leaving nothing for the rest of the soup. Believers were indwelt the same as any other pre or post Jesus believer. Course, I could be wrong but no scripture has been stated otherwise.

    Careful comparing Judaism as the old and Christianity as the new. What religion do you think Jesus was practicing? He was a Jew through and through. If he can declare the Jews as the "old garment" he can surely declare Christianity as the "old garment" as well. That's a poor interpretation of the Scriptures and is not supported anywhere.
    I am trying to say the Sabbath was always Friday night to Sunday night. Take a peek at a write up I did here called "Lord of the Sabbath". You will find out what the Bible says about the Sabbath.

    You didn't read what Major posted first. Major was saying we are now in an era of Grace instead of the Law. I said not so buddy, there was always Grace or nobody could have been saved before Jesus. Of course I believe Grace was always present.

    Sorry, your the one who said "strict school you will see the extreme rules as a curse" maybe just post clearer so your thoughts are more transparent. I posted scripture denying they were extreme rules Deuteronomy 31:11-14.

    What is a foundation? It is something you build the rest of the house on. The Torah is the foundation on what everything else rests upon it. Not excluding any scriptures. If you call it legalism to be obedient to the Word of God, then I am happy with that. Obviously you haven't read John 1. Jesus led a sinless life. Taking away or nullifying any of his commandments would have been a sin as I have already showed. If he did, that would have been a sin according to his Word, and his death would have been in vain. What defined sin? His Torah of course. What is heresy is saying the Torah (Genesis - Deuteronomy) is not the Word of God. Please rethink this and delete if you come to the similar conclusion.

    He hates believers plain and simple. He wants all of us to rot in hell with him. But he has always used Israel to make his glory known through them. Ezekiel 36:32 " I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!” But Israel and the Jews are going to be front and centre in these coming years.

    Dodging would be not answering 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 people who have clearly expressed opposition to the views, supported by scripture, of which I addressed with scriptures in the bible. Through 11 pages so far, most, not all, main areas that are unscriptural I have addressed. Haven't dodged a single thing. I've dealt with being called a heretic, unsaved, legalist, blah, blah, blah with clear scriptural support. Here is the example of the Law saving the adulteress women below if you have missed it.
  9. In case you missed it KingJ, here's the rerun on the adulteress women.

    (John 8:3 NNAS) The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
    (John 8:4 NNAS) they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught inadultery, in the very act."
    (John 8:5 NNAS) "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; whatthen do You say?"
    (John 8:6 NNAS) They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him.........

    The little clash Yahshua had with the Scribes and Pharisees was one of many over the interpretation and understanding of the scriptures and of the law. The Jewish leaders were getting "Fed Up" with this New Man on the Block (outsider) teaching a different or contradictory religion to their own. All this was creating the erosion of their control and authority over the nice little SYSTEM they had going.

    Many teach today that this little episode is proof that Yahshua did come and introduce a new and different religion which "did away " with the law and replaced it with GRACE. "We are no longer under the LAW", that's what they teach, and the proof of it is that Yahshua Saved the Adulterous Woman that was condemned to death in accordance to the Law of Moses. (John 8:5)

    First, Yahshua DID NOT come to do away or change the Law. (Mat 5:17) He stated very clearly that not one jot or tittle of the law would fall or change so long as heaven and earth remains to exist. (Luke 16:17 & Mat 5:18)
    So, Did Yahshua SAVE this woman from her Death sentence by introducing the Doctrine of Grace? Or did the Law of Moses (YAHWEH'S LAW) save Her?? Let's take a look.

    There is much speculation as to what Yahshua wrote on the ground the two times in John 8:6 and John 8:8. One common teaching is that he was probably writing down the names of various members of the group who were condemning the woman and writing down their matching sins the second time. With this exposure, it is suggested, the mob broke up, each seeing their names and sins written down before them. (John 8:9)
    I suggest that in reality what occurred was that Yahshua actually became the Womans Advocate/Lawyer or Mediator against the UNJUST application of the Law.

    The Law does read that an adulteress woman shall surely be put to death because committing adultery is a Sin and death is the penalty for that particular sin. This was the argument used by the Scribes and Pharisees for justifying the condemnation of the woman.

    But Yahshua, by knowing the LETTER of the Law and the SPIRIT (Intent/Purpose) of the Law, was actually accusing the Scribes and Pharisees of Sinning (The Breaking of the Law) because they were NOT following DUE PROCESS according to the LAW. Remember, the Breaking or going against Yahweh's Law (also referred to as the Mosaic Law or Torah) is defined as Sin. (1 John 3:4)

    Have you heard the terms RULE OF LAW and POINT OF LAW? I suggest these were the issues Yahshua was arguing about by writing the applicable scriptures on the ground!!
    Setting the scene with the above information, let us go through the chain of events of John 8:2-11 again. A better and more accurate understanding may result by supplying some commentary between the lines that is supported by the scriptures of Yahweh.

    Early in the morning Yahshua came again into the temple court, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees then brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Yahshua, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

    "Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Yahshua stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground the following scriptures.

    And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.(Lev 20:10)
    If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.(Deu 22:22)
    These scriptures showed that the RULE of LAW and DUE PROCESS was not being followed because the man (the adulterer) was not in custody and was not being charged along with the woman. But it seems that this was not a major issue with the Scribes and Pharisees because they continued to force the issue concerning the guilt and execution of the WOMAN only.

    But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. This time the scriptures he wrote were:
    At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you (Deu 17:6-7)
    One witness shall not rise up against a man (or woman) for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
    If a false witness rise up against any man (or woman) testify against him (or her) that which is wrong; Then both of them, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

    And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother (or sister); Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother (or sister): so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.(Deu 19:15-19)
    Having to address the groups second misapplication of the LAW, Yahshua wrote down Deut 17:6&7 (as POINTS OF LAW) to justify his question of who among them are the two or three LEGAL witnesses that are required to throw the 1st stones. (John 8:7) Yahshua did not write down the PAST individual sins of these Scribes and Pharisees (as is commonly taught). What he did write down were the Sins that they were in the very act of committing!

    Deut 19:15-19 was to remind these supposedly scholars of YAHWEH'S LAW that if there were any false witness, then they were sinners (Breaking of the Law), and would be judged according to the RULE of LAW. (In this case, possibly be put to death!) Yahshua was making the Law clear to these Scribes & Pharisees that there had to be TWO or THREE witnesses to this act of adultery in order to make this a LEGAL and JUST execution. If the required witnesses were not present(to cast the first stones) then the whole group was in the act of SINNING because YAHWEH'S LAW was being broken. At this time Yahshua probably reminded the group before him that according to scriptures, Lyres and False Witnesses are an abomination to YAHWEH. (Proverbs 6:16 & 6:19)
    When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, until He was left alone, with the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.Straightening up, Yahshua said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

    She said, "No one, Lord." And Yahshua said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more." The older Scribes and Pharisees (being wiser) were first to leave realizing they were caught in a no win Sinful situation. Yahshua him self could not condemn the woman either (even if she was guilty) because he was not a witness to the crime. If he were to condemn her, He would have broken the very Laws that he came to make TRUE and WHOLE again. (See 1 Peter 2:22)
    Yahshua surly had love and compassion for this woman, because it is Yahweh's desire that all will be saved (1 Tim 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9), by tilling her to "Go, and Sin no more." He also was giving her Good earthly advice because if one does NOT Sin, he or she would not open themselves to this sort of predicament.
    Many interpret the event of Yahshua and the adulterous woman as an example of GRACE. John 8:2-11 is used in many teachings and arguments as proof that only sinless people have a right to pass judgement and condemn anyone. All have sinned and come short of the law, (Romans 3:23) so therefore, there can be no penalties or judgement of YAHWEH'S law carried out under such logic. As you can see, the point Yahshua made in this episode was not whether the woman was Guilty or Not, the point was if the LAW was being Justly Applied according to the RULE of LAW (YAHWEH'S LAW).
    Now you answer the Question, Was it YAHWEH'S LAW (Law of Moses) that saved the Adulterous Woman from DEATH?

    Interesting passage just prior to this in John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.” So you can take this as one is to judge by the Word of God. Hope this perks your interest a little to study the Torah/Law.
  10. "Careful comparing Judaism as the old and Christianity as the new. What religion do you think Jesus was practicing? He was a Jew through and through. If he can declare the Jews as the "old garment" he can surely declare Christianity as the "old garment" as well. That's a poor interpretation of the Scriptures and is not supported anywhere." (Ryan)

    "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant."
  11. Read post #23 here. Jeremiah 31, Ezekiel 36:24-28 and Hebrews 8 is with the house of Judah and Israel. It is not exclusive though as all believers will be grafted into the Olive Tree. Renewed Covenant or "Berit Chadashah" has not been fulfilled yet because Israel has still not achieved national salvation.
  12. I know and all Jews need to do is to turn to Christ in faith believing His sacrifice was the sacrifice that ended all sacrifices.
  13. How I interpreted what you said is Christianity has exclusive rights to the New Covenant as they are the new wineskin that you had posted. Just my interpretation of your words that is not scriptural. Do you believe there won't be sacrifices in the new millennium when the temple is rebuilt?
  14. All God requires is our ALL. By that I mean the sacrifice of our heart when we give our All to Him.

    (By the way, sorry about the misunderstanding, the New Covanant is between God and all men, Jew and Gentile alike.)
  15. Hey no problem. Appreciate that. :)
  16. Hmmmm Ryan your last quoted paragraph here seems to be addressing my good self. But all that is happening here is I get a finger tip full of splinters from scratching my head trying to figure out what is it I said?

    Well never mind....anyway Ryan, you can't play a word game with either Greek or Hebrew. Especially the word/s rendered as spirit. We have to discipline out studies with subjection to context. Your reference to ""Ruach Qodesh" (H6944, H7307)." belongs to verse 11 not Verse 10. Please be careful. Now in Psa 51:10,11 we need to study with context setting the curriculum. In verse 10, there are a few things to embrace. First as I said, the bid is to create.
    What is it that is to be created? 'A new heart' doubt not new cardiac muscle. Next is the plea to renew a right spirit.
    Prov 18:14. "The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?"
    The Hebrew word translated as 'spirit here is the same as elsewhere, however here it is undoubtedly a man's spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

    That said..Back to (psa 51) renew spirit, can not be the eternal Holy Spirit. He does not age or wear out! So, the renewing of the spirit within David is the renewing of his soiled spirit. Look now at the follow on in verse 11. Here the same word for spirit is used, except that it is now qualified as 'the |Spirit of Holiness | of you.
    ('You', being Elohim)
    It is a common mistake to forget the inspired differentiation between terms. Here we have a differentiation between man's spirit and the Holy Spirit. Similar fiasco in 2Tim 3:15,16. Paul goes to the trouble of differentiating between Holy writing and (non Holy writing) v15, but most don't see it so they charge off into blissful error.
    Looking at V11, there is an action and a result. If the Lord removes David from His presence then the result will be that David is also removed from the presence of the (Holy) Spirit. That can not be used to say that the Holy Spirit is indwelling David in the sense of the Post Pentecost indwelling that is now available to God's servants.

    Touching on another matter, My outlaw Veterinary Surgeon says there is no significant difference in the anatomy of Pigs and other beasts such as sheep. Pigs have a shorter neck, but that would not prolong the time taken to terminate consciousness.
  17. Sorry Ryan, until you accept the whole bible as the word of God that was with Him from the beginning and as our foundation...... not just the Torah.....we will never be on the same page (Rev 22:18).
  18. That last paragraph had no hidden message towards you nor anyone else. I would be decent enough to be more overt if there was. Quit scratching your head with 2x4's now.

    Well I went to the source which was the Hebrew, and in verse 11 as you stated was the "Ruach Hakodesh."
    Numbers 11:25-29 explain the same Holy Spirit at work now. But that's OK, we'll agree to disagree.

    And I said "...not excluding any scriptures..." I'm no construction guy, but the last time I checked, you build a house on a foundation, you don't stop when you have the foundation poured. Please don't distort or twist the words I have posted. I was not the one who did not know that mercy, forgiveness, repentance, righteousness (Deuteronomy 6:25) were always in the Torah. I pray you open up the first part of the Good Book and invest some serious study time into it. God Bless and Shalom KingJ.
  19. Ryan you have completely missed my point in post #209 where I say 'Torah cannot give us'.

    You cannot and must not isolate any portion of scripture and make it an 'ultimate' foundation. The whole bible must be accepted as the word of God or rejected. You are very close to being a heretic in light of Rev 22:18. If we have to isolate a portion of the bible as the most important.... don't you think Christians should study Paul's teaching first and foremost? He was the one to receive the revelation on how to live by faith in an unseen God and basically invented Christianity. The Jews were not exactly in our shoes with all their prophets that had undeniable / visible power and high priests that could go beyond the veil to hear directly from God.
  20. What bible did Jesus teach from?

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