Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. That my brother is what we have been talking about now for 9 pages.

    The Christian does not live under the Law but under the GRACE of God.

    We can have all the opinions we want to have, we can slice it or dice anyway you choose but the bottom line is that we live in the age of GRACE not the Law.

    As I have said..........if YOU want to work at keeping the Law, more power to you. You will be better off trying to keep it. But when all is said and done and you satnd before the Lord, He will only be concerned with His blood and how it is applied to your soul and not whether we kept the Law.


    Again......because the Law cannot save anyone!!!!
    KingJ likes this.
  2. Try "Outback Steak House". They have really good servers and the one we go to they are all very friendly and FAST!
    1an likes this.
  3. YES!

    Even dumb country musicians can be children of the most high God!
  4. YEP!

    I have never attended a New Testament church that did not teach and preach from the whole Word of God on a regular basis!
  5. If you use that logic then, than nobody before Jesus came were saved or have entered into Heaven because grace didn't abound until Jesus's death. Under the law always meant being under the curses of the law for disobedience, it never had the implication Israel was suffering as a result of following it. Instead, it was their guiding light for BEING IN a relationship with God. Years and years of teachings of such as you are sharing now, have only contributed to that faulty logic and premise. It has only served to remove us even further from what should be the foundation of our faith. The Torah was always the foundation of Israel, and when they didn't abide to it, well they suffered the consequences. But God gave them outs, he always said repent and turn back to my ways O Israel. What were those ways? It was always the way of the Torah. As I said, we know God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He gave his choosen people, the ones he had selected apart from all other people for them to be his people. Why would he give them a set of instructions and commandments to follow, only to change the rules years later?

    How many different denominations and types of Christianity are there? Tens of thousands I heard a while ago. How many forms of Judaism? Yeah there are a few, even the Pharisees and Saduccee's would probably be considered to be of a different denomination and theology if you may as they had their differing opinions and interpretations of scripture. But you notice there is only a handful of different Jewish denominations over thousands of years of existence, well surpassing Christianity's existence. The reason why this is, is the churches are not building their congregations on solid footing with the Torah as its foundation. I further submit for thought, that Israel will never achieve national salvation with the Jesus that is presented here. As the one where you don't need to obey God's commandments anymore if you don't want to. Jesus obeyed for you, so mark that one off the checklist. It's a matter of personal preference you have suggested. That's why Christianity's attempts to evangelize the Jews have failed. Because they present a Messiah that did away with the law, or it has no practical value for a believer. Because they are, after all, obeying a commandment Deuteronomy 12:32 "See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it." As a result, according to the Law/Torah, they would have to be declared a false prophet. I mean Israel is holding up the show here, how can you provoke them to jealousy by presenting a Jesus that cast aside the Law for his Grace? When presented this way, the meaning is that Israel never had God's grace until the Messiah came. Just food for thought Major Sir. Anyways, we will agree to disagree, and God's blessings to you.
  6. 32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." This is precisely what the Rabbis were doing Ryan.

    "An idiom is an expression from a local culture. One such statement, understood by those in the Hebrew culture, was used by Rabbi Yahshua. Matthew 5:17-18 says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled."

    Yahshua quoted a Hebrew idiom when He said He came not to destroy the Law or the prophets. He was using a familiar phrase easily understood during Biblical times. Yahshua had been accused of misinterpreting the Torah, yet He said that He was actually rightly and correctly teaching it. Traditional Jewish writings support this idiom, "Should all the nations of the world unite to uproot one word of the Law, they would be unable to do it," Leviticus Rabbah 19:2.

    To understand the meaning of this verse, everything hinges on the meaning of the words "destroy" and "fulfill" in verse 17. What does Yahshua mean by "destroy the Law" and "fulfill the Law"? "Destroy" and "fulfill" are technical terms used in rabbinic argumentation. When a sage felt that a colleague had misinterpreted a passage of Scripture, he would say, "You are destroying the Law!" Needless to say, in most cases, his colleagues strongly disagreed. What was "destroying the Law" for one sage was "fulfilling the Law" (correctly interpreting Scripture) for another." Bivin and Blizzard in their book Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus (Yahshua).
  7. Yes I understand that. You have been hinting though, without outright saying it, that there were certain commandments in the Torah that were merely tradition, and not an actual commandment from the Lord, instead it was from a lord. So what you have posted above is irrelavant, because you have suggested some of the commanments from the Lord, were just mere traditions to follow instead of commandments. Like I asked, please provide book, chapter and verse of where these lords were. And Deuteronomy 22:11 "Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together" was a God breathed commandment. Not a tradition you said was instituted by a Pharisee. Liek I said, when carried out, this "mitzvah" just reminds of God's care and concern for us and for us to be thankful for the clothes on our back.
  8. It is down to you to prove ritual hand-washing is not man made, and the same with mixed fibres.

  9. Very good point, sorry I missed it.
  10. No probs Bill. :)
  11. LOL at that video. Now that was funny. And that was exactly what Jesus was fighting about the Pharisees about. But it had nothing to do with the actual washing of the hands before eating. The Pharisees were saying that food eating without unwashed hands is to be unclean. They were incorrectly distinguishing between what was clean and what was not clean Leviticus 11:47 "make a distinction between the clean and the unclean, and between the edible creature and the creature which is not to be eaten." By saying that good, clean food was unclean based on whether it had been touched by unwashed hands, the Pharisees were disobeying the commandment to correctly determine what was clean and unclean. They were saying what was good for eating, was not good. So yes, they were disregarding God's commandments in favor of a tradition, and an incorrect interpretation of probably this verse: Leviticus 15:11 "Anyone the man with a discharge touches without rinsing his hands with water must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening."

    Just because you can post a video of a secular Jewish video on how to wash hands is amusing. It's not biblical, just a tradition. Is it good to wash your hands though? Yes, of course it is. I like to wash my hands before and after going to the bathroom FYI. That's just me. But to say I am unclean would be incorrectly interpreting the scriptures, hence Jesus's anger with them. And I've already showed you the passage about the mixed fibres. Can we get back on topic please?
  12. I think it best if we don't pursue this as I have too much respect for Judaism and you are forcing me down paths I do not want to go. It is far better imo to realise that eternal God is unfolding His plan for the salvation of humankind and Jesus Christ is the furtherance and the moving forward of the salvation that was planned from the foundation of the earth and it is far better that we move forward in faith with God and follow Him wherever he leads. As far as this conversation is concerned "I'm out."

  13. Me too. :)
  14. Ryan there are several instructions around that passage in Deuteronomy you cited. What is your understanding of the purpose of those instructions? "Don't sow mixed crops in the vineyard, don't wear mixed fabrics, don't plow with an Ox and a donkey (harnessed) together."
    I'm not trying to be cute here, but I don't have a vineyard. The only thing I can grow with success is weeds:(
    Very hard to buy anything other than 'polyester-cotton and wool blends' these days.
    If I put an Ox in my backyard, there would be no room left for a plow let alone a Donkey.
  15. I have said to you before, it is not about the LAW because no one can keep the Law. All of the Old Test. saints were saved by the BLOOD of a sacrifice which pointed to the coming Messiah.

    Go back and study Cain and Abel. Why was Cains sacrifice rejected by God?????

    Why did God kill animals and give the skins to Adam and Eve???

    Messiah Jesus did not do away with the Law....He fulfilled it!.

    Salvation is all about the BLOOD and not the Law!
  16. You know.........I think I am out also.

    I have enjoyed the conversation Ryan but it is claer that you are bent to one side of the equation and there is actually nothing left for me to add to this.

    Do well, be safe, come to Christ and I am sure we will converser again.

  17. Each of these prohibitions had a literal application. Hybridization was a concept that the Sages knew back then and God made it clear that we were not to interfere with mixing and mingling different species or life together. He designed everything for a purpose, and made everything for a purpose. Like I said before, God knows what he knows, and let’s trust him for that. While they have a literal application, the principle behind them is against mixture and confusion. We are to apply these instructions to such things as our marital relations. A believer and an unbeliever are not to be unequally yoked, as in the donkey and ox. This was a concept the ancient Sages even gleaned from this these, and that is where you find the passage below. We may understand “plowing” and “sowing” as referring to marital relationships. If we marry those of another faith and raise children, there will be confusion in the family. I have seen and experienced the above. These concepts and teachings were not foreign to believers even before Christ. I haven't gotten this far yet in my studies, still in Leviticus, but this is what I have been able to pull away from this.

    2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Do not be mismatched with unbelievers. For what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness? Or what fellowship is there between light and darkness? 15What agreement does Messiah have with Beliar? Or what does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, I will live in them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 17Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says YHWH, and touch nothing unclean; then I will welcome you.

    Me too. Was hoping to get this thread to 500 messages though.

    I AM SAVED...GRRRR....
  18. :D

    OK, Ryan here is the thing...and what Major has been trying valiantly to get across to you (I think)
    Being saved, you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.......yes?
    OK, now looking at the laws we just discussed, you know that they are really talking about purity of life rather than Oxen and Donkeys etc. As I pointed out, I don't have room for Donkeys and Oxen, Vineyards or cotton mills.
    But I sure do need to keep my life pure from fornication, adultery, lies, murder, theft and so on.
    As a good little Hebrew living 3000 years ago, and not having the Holy Spirit indwelling me, I needed instruction on holiness living cached in terms that I could apply to my existence.
    But now, thanks to the Grace of God through Christ Jesus, I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and He can go way beyond Oxen and Donkeys, Vineyards and Coffee beans etc.
    So, I'd say you are right to see that there was a precept to guide and instruct the people of God, but you need (in my opinion) to move on to understanding that all precepts are now administered by the Holy Spirit, through Grace.
    This in no way abolishes the Law or the prophets, it just recognizes and begs for proper instruction in our lives by the Holy Spirit, so that we can live a life Holy to the Lord our God....., not by segregating beasts of burden, but by segregating our lives from sinful conduct and living a Spirit led and subordinated life.

    I sincerely trust this can be of some help to you and any others wrestling with the same and similar issues.
    Major likes this.
  19. Living 3000 years ago and believing in the same God you and I worship, they were most definitely filled with the Spirit. Do you know that the events from Passover to Mt. Sinai, mirrored and happened on the same days as Passover and Pentecost/Shavuot in Jesus's day? There is a huge parallel there, and yes, the average Hebrew believer was most definitely indwelt with the Spirit. The Torah was the gift of the Spirit. Written by the finger of God Exodus 31:18, Deuteronomy 9:10. The idiom is found in Luke 11:20 and explained in Matthew 12:28.

    Statements like "beasts of burden" clearly show that the example I provided was the accurate message behind that commandment, yet you still connotated a negative spin to it, when the exact opposite is true. It's to guide our life. I think I saw that you live somewhere hot? I live in a country when winter hits we get huge snowstorms, and when I was a kid, and the first huge snowstorm hit, I got to dig out the driveway, sidewalks, roads. I would stall, hide, make busy, spending more time and energy trying to get out of the doing the work, then actually doing it. Eventually I would end up doing it, and realizing it wasn't all that bad. This is what this thread seems like. So much energy is put into arguing against learning, or trying to do anything in the Torah, and not realizing doing it takes less time and energy, and realizing, it's actually good for you. How's that for a snow job? Wink. Wink.

    So when you say "beasts of burden" take heart of Deuteronomy 30:11-12 "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to proclaim it to us so we may obey it." Sorry Calvin, I take Jesus's easy yoke of following the Torah any day over your "beast of burden" anyday. And yes, I hope this assists others as well contemplating this topic, and I am one to lay witness having been on both sides of the boat.

    Still might be able to get to 500 posts if you and I play the last word freak game!
  20. Well Ryan you certainly seem peeved with my post.:(
    Not to worry,... Snow Job??? well, nice to know someone reads my posts.:) But a 'snow job' is trying to cool someones' ire with a barrow load of Bovine exhaust.:rolleyes:
    Now down to business. As I understand your reply, you believe that the Hebrew people were indwelt by the Spirit of God. You say that The events that occurred on Mount Sinai mirrored Pentecost in Jesus' day. Not sure if you mean the Pentecost that occurred just after the ascension of Jesus but in any event Ryan, a thing which is the mirrored image lacks the substance of the actual thing. That is why for example Hebrews 9 & 10 shows that the cultic rituals (my wording) were only a shadow of the reality which was to come.
    Reading Eze 36:27. in context, also Eze 37:14. it is very clear that the Holy Spirit is a promised gift (as of then) yet to be bestowed.
    No Ryan the Holy Spirit while undoubtedly present, was not indwelling God's people in general until after the ascension of Jesus.
    You posted
    Read again what I said :
    "This in no way abolishes the Law or the prophets, it just recognizes and begs for proper instruction in our lives by the Holy Spirit, so that we can live a life Holy to the Lord our God....., not by segregating beasts of burden, but by segregating our lives from sinful conduct and living a Spirit led and subordinated life."
    ..there was no negativity at all. Note that I am here talking about we, not them. 'We' as in the majority of 21st century people who do not have Beasts of burden....we do have several areas of our lives that need to kept pure and segregated from the unclean practices of this world........You do not agree?? Are you saying that as long as I don't harness an ox and a Donkey together I'll be right??? Is that what you are saying??
    As I explained, I don't own enough land to plow, I can just about keep my lawn trimmed with nail clippers.
    But I get the point through the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, so I can now apply this wise counsel to other more relevant areas of my life.
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