Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. Mat 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
    Mat 5:18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    There is a gnostic view of the scriptures today that has entered into the Christian Churches that is, literally, sending people to Hell. The single verse above, 5:17, shows the truth of the matter but it is generally, just, not considered. About 144AD, mid Second Century, Marcion prompted the notion that the Old Testament and the New Testament were in disagreement, giving birth to the heretical Gnostic idea that the New Testament has, in some fashion, superseded the Old Testament.

    In John 1:1-3 we find that nothing exists in the world that Jesus did not create or cause to be. And when we read Malachi, in the third chapter and the sixth verse we find God explaining that He never changes! What Jesus did for us, before the cross, was to teach us, not the letter of the Law, rather, He taught all that will listen, the heart of the Law. In the Law it is said that, Thou shalt not murder, if you do you will go to Hell. But Jesus taught us that if we hate our brother, we are guilty of murder, already!

    Jesus taught Christianity from the Old Testament, the New was not even being written when He was teaching and if you never study the Old Testament, the light of what Jesus had recorded for us will never shine upon the New Testament as you read it. So, you need to ask yourself, “When I read the Old Testament, is it confusing?” If it is, and it was to me before the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you might want to consider doing a Spiritual Inventory. I'm not trying to scare you into believing you're not saved but to find out if you've been quenching the Spirit. And if you can't find Him there, then you might want to think about why.
  2. In the context that Jesus was talking about, the OT written Law is obsolete and no longer required. Paul confirms this in Romans. You are right though, in that God's immutable laws, which have existed since the beginning of time, are the laws He has written on our hearts. I think most people recognize this. The problem arises, for example, when someone says he has no problem with getting a tattoo. There will be people who are so committed to the written law, because of where or what environment they are saved in, that they will spout something like Leviticus 19:28, to say God says that getting a tattoo is wrong, without even paying attention to verse 27, which they would never validate as applicable to their lives. The OT is great for discovering God the Father and who He is. There are many scriptures in there that can have application and real meaning in our lives.
    th1bill likes this.
  3. Thank you Stan! I spent 25 years on and off the stage and eight ears as an Atheist in the Service with my country. As a result, I have ink all over my body and the Law, as written, is not to my shame, it is shame to me because of the heart of God found there that makes me anything but proud.

    Good note there.
    Major likes this.
  4. Stan, I have to disagree with you again my friend. If there was ever a time when we need God's laws the most, it is this generation. The law was the line of absolute perfection and Holiness that only one man ever, or could ever attain. I will never be able keep all the commandments on a yearly, monthly, weekly, daily, hourly basis. It is impossible. But it truly is my delight in trying. Where have we come in 2 generations? Gone With the Wind created such a stir with that one swear, not only were Christians appalled, the secular world was too. Heaven forbid what kind of a generation have we become? The line in the church now, doesn't even come close to the line of the secular world 2 generations ago. The first church we went to after becoming saved, the pastor used a naughty word. How many ministers have you heard bleeping people to hell?

    When you saw you are free from the law and has no basis for today, what does Matthew 7:21-23 say? Some translations have iniquity, but the Greek word is anomias. That word means absence of the Mosaic Law. So when people say they are free from the law, why would you want to be with warnings like this?
  5. Good day Ryan......I hope that you are well.

    May I say to you concerning your referrance to Matt. 7:21-23 and saying it means we are to keep the law of God, I have to point out to you that the verse you quoted do not refer to believers today. Every believer, living or dead will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. NONE will ever hear the Lord say........"Depart from me!"

    This passage has particular referrance to the Great Tribulation Period and also the Millenium. You see, the phrase........"IN THAT DAY" used by Matthew is an Old Testament phrase and it designates a time of JUDGMENT. This is the place to suggest that the Sermon on the Mount will have a particular meaning for the remnant during the Great Tribulation.

    Also, there is a needed warning here for professing church members, in fact for all believers. Many people talk enthusiastically about so-called miracle workers today and will say to me.........."You can tell that God is with them".

    In light of these verses in Matthew 7, can we then be sure of that?????
    The name of Christ is on many peoples lips who are leaders of false cults and "isms". Just to use the name of Christ and the Bible is not proof that a system or person is the real thing. It is not and never has been the outward profession but the inward relationship to a crucified but living Savior that makes the differance.
  6. What is it exactly, you are disagreeing with Ryan. What I said about the applicabilty of the OT Mosaic and levitical laws or what Jesus said?
    I disagree that the written law was absolute perfection.
    Heb 8:13
    Mat 5:18
    Rom 7:6
    Gal 3:10-11, 16-18.
    Gal 5:18
    Heb 7
    There are many more, but I want you to carefully read Titus 3:8-10

    The proper modern word is 'lawlessness'. This does NOT mean ignoring a written law. Jesus very clearly says in v21, "the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" This is the law God writes on our hearts, NOT on paper.

    You do NOT properly exegete this scripture. The Greek word for 'lawlessness' in verse 23 is anomia and connotes;
    1) the condition of without law
    a) because ignorant of it​
    b) because of violating it​
    2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

    1. Hebrews 8:10
      This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
      Hebrews 8:9-11 (in Context) Hebrews 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
    2. Hebrews 10:16
      “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
      Hebrews 10:15-17 (in Context) Hebrews 10 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

    This is not talking about the OT/Mosaic/Levitical written laws.

  7. I agree the verses have prophetic implications, but immediately in verse 24 - 27 Jesus talks about whoever puts his words into practice, will have built their house on rocks instead of on sand. He will reject those who practice lawlessness whether it be pre, mid, post or none of the above he will judge us all the same whether we were born in 500BC, 1000BC, or in todays generation. My point being, was and still is, when we say we are free from the law, that is just one step closer we are to lawlessness as that established line of righteousness and holiness we have moved ourselves to what we want it to look like, not how God established it back starting at Mt. Sinai.

    The Lord, our God made it very clear his commandments, his laws, his teachings were not beyond anyone's reach. Deuteronomy 30:10-11. Further in Deuteronomy 30:15-18 describes the consequences, both good and bad, for following these teachings, commandments, instructions. And time after time the Bible describes when his people were living in his obedience they were blessed Deuteronomy 28:1. Lo and behold we have heard about the dreaded curses of the law haven't we? What were the curses of the law? Deuteronomy 27:26, Deuteronomy 28:15. The curses were never the laws itself, it was just wanton disregard for them. Again, the Bible is explicit time after time when his people were disobedient, they faced curses and punishment for their actions, not by any flaw of the Law. This is funny I heard this once. But you parents of teenagers, if you have ever had a completely rebellious teenager and they were destroying the house you were living in, if all else failed to correct them you finally had to kick them out of the house. But not only did you kick them out, you burnt the house down and left as well. God did that twice. Hebrews 8:7-8 makes it very clear the fault was with the people.

    I will have to say Major that the inward expression and healing that comes when we become born again, the outward expression is ineveitable that the kindness, caring, loving compassion we have for others is the natural result of becoming believers.
  8. Again you do not exegete properly. The words Jesus refers to, are all of those He spoke in chapters 5, 6 & 7. His words, NOT the written law. Lawlessness has nothing to do with the tribulation. Your point seems to be telling God He made a mistake by eliminating the written law in the NC. God says He wants to write His laws on each of ours hearts individually, and Ryan Lepko says that is not a good idea. I post the following link for ALL to consider;

    So you think Leviticus 19:28 is applicable today? What about verse 27? Paul makes is very clear in Romans as does Peter in his Epistles, that we are NOT subject to the OT law but you want to use OT Law to prove they are wrong? Even Jesus said it would pass when all was accomplished, which it was when He rose from the dead.

    and if that is a fact, then why do you insist we need the written laws when the NT clearly shows we will become new creatures and the old things will pass away? You don't seem to be very sure of your stance in this regard?
  9. Well, being in Cow Town tonight with all this snow, I understand your thoughts that the heavens and earth are passing away accomplishing everything. However, that is not so and every jot and tittle is still there for our instructions, correction, encouragement right from Genesis to Revelation. Psalm 119:96 describes what perfection is, but his commandments exceeding that. Everything God has provided for us, has always been perfected. How do you reconcile your statements about the the Law not being perfect with Psalm 19 then?

    Hopefully, I can reconcile all the passages you gave about the law being supposedly done with, but it's late and I'm tired. Till then, Jesus being perfect, and he never, ever once changed or amended any of his commandments, only clarified with authority and power what was written as the Scriptures had gone into exile and had lost its meaning with the apostasy at the time, and he never once said his Torah, his Laws, his teachings were abolished, I have to ask this question. Does Paul trump Jesus, or does Jesus trump Paul? One of the most overlooked passages in the Bible is Matthew 23:1-3. Jesus, our Messiah is telling the people to do what the Pharisees are teaching them as they are teaching them the Law of Moses. He is just telling them though they are hypocrites. Isn't that amazing? These people whohe knew were plotting to kill him, was still telling the people to learn from what we call the Old Testament.

    Lastly, the passage you quoted was from Titus. The first chapter Paul is warning Titus not to listen to the non-believing Jews that the Crecians must be circumcised to be truly saved, which you know and I know was the huge war and controversy at the time. Titus 1:14 sets the stage that there were still many lies and myths spread by the non-believing Jews to the believers. Titus 2:15 is telling Titus to rebuke those who are not in line with this Epistle which were many people. Titus 3:8-10 and include verse 11 as well because it puts into context on who these verses are speaking too. You feel these verses are about arguing about the Law and how divisive it is. But that wasn't the intent in these verses. The intent was to not argue with an unbeliever about controversies (circumcision), the geneaology of certain people as Titus was a Greek, and Jews thought they had more entitlement to the kindom of heaven based on their race and lineage and believing in works based salvation which was still another huge controversy. It is essentially saying it is useless in engaging them in arguments as these people are divisive. Verse 11 goes onto say that such a person is sinful and self condemned. So, what are you trying to say then? The context of this verse is about arguing with unbelievers about what they have no understanding of. Take care and God bless.
  10. Being born again and having the law on our hearts was not a new idea. Deuteronomy 30:6 was the concept of being born again that Nicodemus was scolded about by Jesus. And what is hidden in Deuteronomy 30:14? Could it possibly be that the Law was in every believer's heart and mouth back in Moses day? So then why did they not just do away with the Torah then if it was in everybody's mind and heart then? Honest question that I don't have an answer for.
  11. lol :)

    Hence the gift of discernment from our Helper (John 14:26).

    Tattoos are permanent / mess up temple of God. 27, beard, maybe if I was on an outreach in Israel. If we can't discern properly, then we must stick 100% to the OT laws. Every law had a purpose and pleased God. We must consider them all.
  12. You forgot to include the root word (etymology), which is anomos (StrongsG459).
    1. Destitute of the Mosaic law
    a) of the Gentiles
    2. Departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked.

    Yes you just proved my point for me. Thank you. You said his laws are written on our hearts, so why don't you know the meaning of Leviticus 19:28 if it is written on your heart? Or it has no practical application in your life? Leviticus 19 begins with making yourself, holy which means to set apart. The word holiness has lost it's meaning nowadays because we don't know how to set ourselves apart from the world. That is the whole point of Leviticus 19:26-31. To set them apart from the Canaanites and other people in the region which were given into idolatry and cutting and thrashing themselves when praising their pagan gods, or when they were mourning the death of a loved one. Our God wanted a people that were completely separate from everybody else in that region and the entire world at that time so all will know who they are? Sound familiar? The commandment to not cut your beard, to me anyways, only implied if you grew a beard you were not to maim it. Although the practice was to have beards at that time. Aaron, Psalm 133, David, Samuel 21:13, Ezra 9:3, and Jesus, Isaiah 50:6 all had beards. Jesus was our example 1 Peter 2:21. Do I have a beard, no. But this is something I have contemplated. How many people have beards nowadays? I'm not gonna tell one person though they are breaking a commandment by not having one. Just something to consider for myself.
  13. Ryan......may I say to you that when we try to mix or combine the Law with grace in any way whatsoever, we are then degrading the work of Christ in our salvation.

    When you use the Sermon on the Mount as your basis you must then understand that the sand Jesus spoke of in verse # 26 represents the human goodness and effort or better said WORKS. And keeping the Law, any part of it constitutes WORKS. It is the old weakness of the flesh and to be very honest with you, we need something better than what our flesh has to offer.

    The book of Exodus gives us the details of the Law and the sacrificial system whch was a great system. Exodus reveals that the very heart of the Law system was the burnt altar where sacrifices were made. That altar speaks to and points to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ and God never forgave a sin apart from a sacrifice that was made because you see, THE LAW DID NOT SAVE MAN.

    The Law only revealed to man that he was a sinner.It became a systemof condemnation not a system of salvation and it seems to me that is exactly what you are doing my dear brother. Ever sacrifice made in the Old Test. pointed to the coming of the Messiah Jesus whose sacrifice on the cross would redeam ALL men, past, present and future.

    Now Ryan.......after you are saved, God has a way for you to live your life and that way IS NOT THE MOSIAC LAW.
    I do understand what you are trying to do and very frankly it is not knew. I was originally educated in one of our Christian institution which did the same by draging Law keeping into salvation. Now think about this........................
    if you did somehow manage to keep every single one of the 10 Commandments, you would still not be saved!!

    Why???? Because that which save you is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore the Law cannot save you.

    Neither is the Law a way of life. It is NOT the Christian way of life.

    Then of course someone will say........"Does that mean I have a license to sin and do what I want to do"?

    GOD FORBID! It merely means that we have a way of life which is much higher than the 10 Commandments.

    Lets take this to another level shall we??? Listen to the words of Jesus on this and He will tell us where the problem is.

    Matthew 15:18-20
    King James Version (KJV)
    But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
    These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    As we can see, a man can have a religion that requires the washing of hands and the body and you can go through any kind of ritual, but that is not the problem. IT IS THE HEART OF MAN.

    Man has a desperate case of HEART disease because the heart is desperatly wicked and who can know it. We need Jesus! The Lord Jesus ALONE can change the heart by a miracle know as "regeneration". REGENERATION is the process by which God gives us the ability to controle our Old Nature. We can never get rid of that Old Nature but through the power of God's Spirit we can controle it.

    Bingo!...........That is why God gave the 10 Commandments; to contole the Old Nature. But they did not do that because the people God gave them to departed from God, rejected His messiah and still live in darkness today.

    Today we have the Holy Spirit in us which allows us to live for God and produce fruit in our lives which will be pleasing to the Lord. He allows us to serve God with our whole heart and not by following a set of rules which we can not keep.
  14. Ryan......Deut. 30:6 is actually the 5th great promise to the nation of Israel in that there will be a national conversion.

    In Deut. 30:1-10 are 7 promises that God makes about a future blessing and they are unconditional.
    If we read Jere. 32:39 and the book of Hosea and also Romans we will see these promises affirmed.
    They of course will take place at the Second Coming of Christ(Ezk. 36:24-36; Mark 13:26-27; Romans 11:25-27).

    These promises are NOT a concept that would apply to the act of beiing born again as was told to Nicodemus by Jesus.

    Now to your question of "what is hidden in Deut. 30:14?"

    It is all about CONTEXT, not ONE verse. We must read verses 10- 14 to have that proper context.

    Deuteronomy 30:10-14
    King James Version (KJV)
    "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
    For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
    It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

    Now we can clearly see that this is about Israel. It is about them being placed once again in the Land. This tells us that the 7 promises given in verses 1-10 apply to Israel when she is once again in the Land that God gave her. But here is the key to the verse in context............

    "There will be NO blessings for them in the land until the time when they return in obedience with a new heart which God will give them. "

    Jeremiah 24:7
    "And I will give them an new heart to know me, that I am the Lord and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, for they shall return unto me with their whole heart".

    Heb. 8:8
    "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:".
  15. Just like I said. Those who are BOUND by the written laws in the OT will push one and justify the other. They both speak a directive and yet one(v27) is socially acceptable and will be justified or ignored, while the other(v28) for certain Christians, is NOT socially acceptable and will be villified. What does the NT say about having 2 minds?
  16. Unresponsive Ryan and impertinent. Let's try to keep ON TOPIC and try not to be flippant.
    Psalm 119:86 describes that perfection HAS a limit, but that God's commands (notice it doesn't say written) are boundless. Your assertion here shows you do NOT understand the context or what is being conveyed. Boundless and prefet are not the same thing. The law OF the LORD, IS perfect. Notice the very next verse says His statutes are trustworthy and as long as they remain his, they are. Your assumption, which is in error, is that ALL the written law is perfect and God's will for our lives today.

    For someone who is so tired he can't respond to what I wrote, you sure go on. You answer my questions and I'll answer yours. FYI, Jesus says, seeing as you don't quote Him for obvious reason; “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
    IF they said, "IT IS WRITTEN", then it was the law and they sat as the Pope does. If they said "You have heard it said", then they were NOT teaching the law. You seem to not like verse 4 here, why is that? Probably because it reflects all who do not practise what they preach.

    What happened to being tired Ryan? Or is it that you don't have or want to answer? FYI, Paul always addressed the false teaching of the circumcision group. This is not new. What I quoted in 3:8-10 is what I asked you to read carefull, but as usual you obfuscate the real truth in the scripture. You even now support Paul's words when they don't conflict with your stance on the law. Another sign of 2 minds. Would you feel more comfortable with Luke writing God's inspired words? What do you have to say about Heb 8:13; By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
    The context of Titus 3:8-10, address the issue of arguing about the written laws. I find it is enough to warrant me to follow Paul direction, and NOT engage YOU any more in this matter.

    You have been properly instructed.
  17. I'll say this again because it is so important, The Mosaic Law was a nd is important to the Christian World view. As has been pointed to but is being ignored, Paul, Peter, John and the others taught exactly what Jesus taught and as has been pointed to, Jesus said that He did not do away with the words of the Law nor did He do away with the words of the Prophets. Jesus, when asked what was the greatest commandment summed the entire ten up with two all encompassing two.​
    I said it in the OP and here it is again, there is the letter of the Law that only Jesus was able to keep and then there is the heart of the Law, the heart of God! The Mosaic Law Was given to Moses by Jesus on Mount Sinai and the LORD knew that we could never live up to them. We must, however seek after the heart of God/Jesus and the Law is the expression of His heart. Jesus did live the perfect life and it is our mission to be, daily, conformed to His image (that image expressed in the Law He fulfilled).​
    The truth that we, humans, can never fulfill the Law is taken in the Church today as license to sin and sin, for any reason can send you to Hell! Nobody here is asking you to fulfill the Ten Commandments, however, they are the standard we must seek to live by! You can rationalize until the Rapture but that will not get you to Heaven. Read the book of James, please! Righteousness does produce good works.​

  18. I didn't forget Ryan. It is not germane. Many words have root words and in this case the root would apply to people using it in regards to the WRITTEN law. Lawlessness is pretty much the same as anarchy. It conveys an attitude of complete self reliance and self morality.
    So you are saying that it makes sense to follow the Levitical laws under certain circumstances? Why aren't you walking around with ringlets like the Hasidic Jews do?(v27) Why do you cut the hair at the side of your head?(v27) Do you wear poly/cotton shirts? (v19) Have you built a house lately? Did you follow Deut 22:8?
    Again you operate and debate with 2 minds. Sorry but I can only debate with a person that is of one mind, the mind of Jesus.
  19. Discerning does not equal 2 minds! :eek:

    Don't you know we will judge angels? With the Holy Spirit we can and must judge all things....even the application of OT laws. With every OT law I simply ask myself, 'what was God's reasoning for this law' and apply it in some way to my own life. Example, tithing is clearly to the Jews and because they had an entire tribe in full time ministry. But the principle of giving regularly to support the place we fellowship is the modern application of that. Whereas something like 'shall not murder' requires little discerning but 100% obedience.

    Every OT law pleased God. If I consider my wife. Those things that pleased her before we got married, still please her. Its just that now she is not going to 'not' go on dates with me as we are married, hence she will rather just be sad and hurt. Jesus removed the sting of law, but not the law. Now that I am closer to my wife in marriage, I know a million more things that upset her not just the 1000 before marriage.

    As you correctly noted, the OT laws are now written on our hearts, resulting in....the ability to better obey and have knowledge of even more laws. Your statement,
    is opening the door to major error.
    th1bill likes this.
  20. YOU CAD!!!

    Right now ask your wife out for a date.
    KingJ and th1bill say Amen and like this.

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