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Jesus Or God Or Both?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by dUmPsTeR, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. Jesus came about His Father business. Not wanting to claim accolades for Himself. Isn't our Father the big picture here? Why all the Christ centered stuff? Is it not God, YHWH, that we should be centered upon?

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  2. Interesting enough, not only does Jesus bring glory to the Father, but the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus (Luke 2:26, John 14:26, Acts 1:8) , and Father Glorifies the Son (Luke 3:22). This is why the scripture says God is, love. 1 John 4:8 for Love seeketh not her own 1 cor 13:6. And if God IS love, not that love is an adjective but that God is in fact the actual thing we call love, then by implication, Christ existed with the Father from eternity because His love existed from eternity. This is why Jesus could say to Phillip, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. John 14:9

    Therefore, it is no coincidence that the Bible and our faith is Christocentric. In fact, this point even becomes more pertinent when you understand why Jesus had to come to the earth to begin with--it is within this context that the bible should be studied. Then we can understand why Jesus is exalted. After all, He is our Creator and our God.
    RosaVera likes this.
  3. Wow, that really helps put Him into perspective better for me. Especially that last paragraph. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

    I will continue to strive to emulate Messiah Jesus.
  4. I take a more Trinitarian point of view.

    Jesus is the Main focus because God the Father sent in him the last days to speak to us by whom The Father made everything for Jesus and appointed Jesus to be heir of all things.
    (Heb 1:2)

    Jesus had all the Glory before the World was, but came to destroy the Works of the devil which is sin, Killing, Stealing and destroying. He made a way back to the Father who made all things.
    Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Since He has all things being a heir and the Father sent him to us, and no other name given to men by which they might be saved, we give Jesus all the honor and praise.
  5. I didn't think Jesus came to save satans world. Wasn't that the error of the Jews that were in power when Jesus walked the earth?

    I thought that Jesus came to qualify to take over the thrown* from satan upon Jesus return. I also thought that we can be redeemed(forgiven) now, and salvation comes after judgment?
  6. I have a hard time with the Trinitarian approach. I believe in God(YHWH), and Messiah Jesus, but the Holy Spirit as a third entity? I see the Holy Spirit as Gods, or Jesus, projecting their power. I may be wrong, but the Trinity doc. never rested well with me.
  7. I am sorry, I meant to say what you did. I thought it came out like that.

    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    Adams obedience to Satan gave Satan the Earth lease and put Adam subject under Satan by which death reigned. Jesus came to wreak havoc on Satan's Kingdom and destroy the work of sin which was death. Satan is still the "god" of this World but He does not have the position he once had. When the last enemy "Death" is put under, Satan's goose will be cooked.

    So yes, we are already delivered from the Power of Darkens, already escape any judgement, and in a very good position with the Father and Son.

    Salvation is now, and is a Greek word that means healed, rescued both physically and morally. The Word covers both physical healing and spiritual "Morally" according to Strongs Concordance.

    So do I Brother, I said I will take a trinity approach. The Holy Spirit never speaks on his own but that which he hears, so He is not God, and never been called God but He is the Spirit of God and God has always taken ownership of Him. I don't mind including him to avoid unlearned arguments that lack scriptures to back up.

    The belief that Man-ofGod has is called Modelism. It's a sister of Oneness, but not as well put together. So, someone that says the believe in Trinity believe that there are 3 Gods, and these 3 Gods are One.

    The original Trinity Creed said they are God of God. Scriptures says this.

    1Jn 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Trinity Doctrine states That Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit Not the Father and the Father not Jesus. There are actually 3 of them that have their own record and witness, but the three are One.

    Much like the scripture says Husband and Wife are one flesh and Paul said that was a mystery, so good enough for me.
    Trinity states (Not Scripture) that God the father is the Creator and first person in the Godhead. Jesus is the 2nd as Mediator and savior and the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person in the Godhead.

    Since Trinity does not attempt to prove itself, it can avoid the mass scripture contradictions that Modelism and Oneness present us.
    Trinity says there are 3 and these 3 are 1 just like the scripture said. End of story.

    Man -ofGod said Jesus is the creator, which is not scripture but its a Modelist doctrine.

    That means they believe there is 1 God that manifest as 3.

    So, Jesus is the Father, is the Holy Spirit, is the Savior.

    If that is the case, then we get a whole bunch of questions like who did Jesus pray to? How can Jesus be a heir to all things if He created it all anyway?

    So, that is why I said I would take a Trinity approach because I can take that position and still not have scriptures that contradict.

    Keep in mind, Most believers do not understand Trinity or Modelism. A whole lot of people that claim Trinity are really Modelist and don't even know it. So, I just pick Trinity to avoid the arguments.

    Stay encouraged!!!
    KingJ likes this.
  8. There are 4 verses that shed light on the trinity for me...

    Mark 10:8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

    This is just interesting. Marriage gives us a glimpse of the trinity.

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    This clears all doubt. In some spiritual manner they are one. Jesus is not a liar.

    Matt 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    Clearly they are two seperate beings as Jesus prays to God.

    John 14:16 -17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    The Holy Spirit is clearly a seperate being.

    The chief issue, is that we recognise Jesus as Lord / deity. Otherwise His blood is not sufficient to graft us into the family of God. Hence seeing Jesus and the Holy Spirit as projections of God is perhaps a safer view then using our carnal minds to rationalise three separate beings yet one spiritually. It is just beyond us imho. Much like the question of how God came into existence :confused:.
  9. Thank you Brother KingJ!!! Really good. Sounds close enough for me.
  10. Yes, you said it well. I just need to work on my reading comprehension better, and/or get some glasses so I don't make a spectacle of myself. (sorry, old joke) ;/

    I like all you said here ^, and I've not heard the 'Modelism' term before, thank you for sharing.
  11. I appreciate you helping clarify for me KingJ, especially the marriage analogy because I like the aspect of family and togetherness.

    Yes, lets not get into the origin of God, I fear smoke might come out of my ears trying to wrap my brain around that one. I'm okay knowing that God doesn't reveal everything. I'm just on fire to know all I can, and pray God gives me the discernment to know the difference between truth or untruth, and that He helps me from getting what I call 'information constipation'. ;/
  12. Forums are made for bringing forth ideas and sharing. That does not always mean we are clear the first few post around. I have more than once thought one thing, had it in my mind and since I had it all laid out in my head I just assumed I typed all of it, when In fact I was not very clear and left chunks out that would have cleared up a lot for the reader. That is why we can post again and get it right :)

    Also on a Christian forum like this we have tons of preconceived ideas about what people believe by the statements they make that does not help either. I can never assume you believe one thing by just a few statements and throw you into some Doctrinal category.

    One guy asked on here if I was a Christian Scientist. He came up with that based on my strong faith in the Word of God. I don't even know what that is, but looking it up, it's not good to be a Christian Scientist.

    Trinity, Oneness, Modelism, Symbolism.

    All these beliefs were created way back. Oneness in 1914 where modelism and symbolism followed. These Creeds, or doctrines where made to keep the belief of Monotheism. It was a big issue back when the Trinity Doctrine was put together by the Niacene council. It was to protect Monotheism or the belief in (ONE GOD ONLY)
    There may be 2 God's mentioned, both called Called in the Bible but they are one God. The Holy Spirit was given the Title of God by men, the scripture says He is the Spirit Of God, not God. It don't matter I guess, because technically God (Theos) means deity or something that is immortal and the Holy Spirit fits the definition of Theos so good enough.

    I would be what you call a Polytheist. I believe there are Two Gods, Both called Called, Paul said we honor just these two alone. The Father and Son who have always been, and always will be.

    Nobody has been in heaven to come back and tell us how this works, we can't perceive naturally anymore than we understand how Husband and wife are considered one flesh by God. Good enough for me.
  13. #13 ixoye_8, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
    yes and no ..
    God (Yahh) the Father's will is what must concern us ..
    God the Father is whom we should pray to (in Jesus' name we ask)

    yet Jesus is both, the mediator of the covenant of Faith (the means of salvation) ..
    the intercessor between us and the Father ..
    and the judge of all ..

    thus we must not diminish the need of one over the other (since they both act as/are one God) ..
  14. did you know the Father and Son both have the same name ???
    kinds of sheds a light on His words (in both literal ways) ..
    "I came in my Father's name" ..
  15. does not "the three are in agreement" not show independence and oneness ???
    if the HS also did not posses a unique essence in the one substance of God, then it would read the two are in agreement ..
    indeed the HS "proceeds from the Father", but so does the Son ..
  16. #16 ixoye_8, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
    perhaps this analogy (though very crude) may help ..
    God is a single being, yet the single being has 3 parts that allow function ..
    a brain, a nervous system and muscles ..
    all work together, and though separate specific purpose, are one and act as one ..
    thought or will ..
    impulse or connecting force ..
    muscle or action ..
    so God is three (on a specific independent role) and yet one as a unit/being ..

    therefore one can understand how both proceed from the Father, because the Father is the initiating force ..

    BTW: scripture tells us the HS also is an intercessor between us and the Father, because both Jesus and Him are in-between us and the Father ..
  17. How bout, God is a class of being. Each being has their own testimony and their own function. 2 of the beings are in the "Theos (god) class) " One of them belongs to the Father and does not speak on his own, but only what He hears. He technically is in the "god" class being immortal or deity, but points to Jesus and repeats only what He hears.

    They don't act as one, for one is head of the Church and given all things. He also acts as mediator between man and His Father. All 3 however act on the behalf of mankind and all of creation, by us in them and He in us. We also act being in the same family and are just as much a part of the Kingdom as they are. For we are the Godhead bodily.

    I don't care for the Modelist view, so I thought I would throw that in there.

    Have fun and blessings.
  18. I'm not following the question. Christ is not on a lesser level than God, and going by Christian doctrine, God can't be removed from Christ.

    The Arian position is that Jesus is less than God. That would be heresy of course.
    ixoye_8 likes this.
  19. If you want to be technical. Jesus is Greater than His Father. It was not always so because He was called God's Servant.

    It's often the case we get ideas and beliefs that are not actually in scripture. No fault of our own, we tend to just trust the churches and people we talk to.

    So, if you were to ask the Father who is greatest, He would point over to his son. For in Jesus his Father made all things and through him all things. He exalted the Word above his own name, and Jesus name means the Word (Rev)

    Strange, I know, but that is scriptures.

  20. I'm not quite sure what you mean -- perhaps you can help me with that.

    I do know that we are taught that they are one. It's emphasized in the Gospel of John (especially in John 14:7-10). In John 14:28, Christ says that the Father is greater than He. This one can be complicated to explain as Christ's humanity is lesser than God's divinity, but Christ's divinity is literally God's divinity. It's one of the mysteries of faith.

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