JESUS - On earth in the Millennium? Questions to consider.

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Marilyn C, Feb 21, 2016.

  1. Hi @CCW95A,

    I think we had this discussion as ways back. Would glorified (spiritual) body sound better to you? Or how would you described the Lord now - glorified, exalted on high at the right hand of the Father?

  2. Hi @CCW95A,

    I think God`s word tells us, bro -

    `But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere seed - .....But God gives it a body as He pleases,....The Body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption....It is sown a natural body, IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.
    And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam a life-giving spirit.` (1 Cor. 15: 35 - 45)

    Thus I read from those scriptures that the Lord Jesus Christ is a spirit in a spiritual body. We will also have the same, I believe.
    How do you see this?

  3. IMO, Jesus’s kingdom will be on the earth.
    According to:

    Revelation 5:9-10, the people that Jesus will redeem at judgment will become kings and priests to God and reign on the earth;

    Zechariah 14:3–4, 9, in his second coming, the Lord [Jesus] will descend on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem and from there, he will be king over the whole earth;

    Zechariah 14:16-17, the Lord [Jesus] will defeat all nations that would have come on Jerusalem and those that survive would have to go to Jerusalem every year to worship Jesus, and if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship Jesus there will be no rain on them;

    Zechariah 8:3, "I [Jesus] will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.”

    Zechariah 8:20-24 like 14:16-17 states that people will come from around the world to worship Jesus.

    Jeremiah 23:5, "Behold, the days come, says the Eternal, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

    Luke 1:32, 33, He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of his father David and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His Kingdom there shall be no end.

    I understand what you are saying about being taught this and that, however it seems to me that all the above passages clearly indicate that when Jesus returns he will establish his kingdom on the earth and not in heaven.

    In light of the posted Scriptures, is it possible that you were taught error by someone?

    The prologue to the Book of Revelation (Rev 1:1) states clearly that it was God himself who gave the book to Jesus and Jesus in turn revealed to John through his angels. Therefore, if Rev 5:9-10 states categorically that Jesus and the righteous will reign on the earth, there is no room for any other interpretation as the statement is explicitly clear. In any case, how can the prophecy in Zachariah be fulfilled, if Jesus is going to establish his kingdom in heaven. Who will be in Jerusalem that the families that survive the onslaught of Jesus will have to go there and worship? Above all, Revelation 11:15 states clearly that there will come a time that the kingdom of the world will become the kingdom of our Lord.
    CCW95A likes this.
  4. Hi @Major,

    I see you have done some homework. And very good questions & worthy of thoughtful answers. Now I`m going out today but will get back to you as soon as I can.

    Blessings, Marilyn.
  5. Not really homework. Just some stuff I remembered. Now if I could just remember why I can into the bathroom I would be having a great day!
    Complete likes this.
  6. Hello @Marilyn/@CCW95A.

    Our Lord does have a glorified, spiritual body: but He is none the less, not 'a spirit', for He still has 'flesh and bones', and when He returns He will be recognisable as the One Whom Israel pierced (Zech 12:10).

    'Behold my hands and my feet,
    that it is I myself:
    handle me, and see;
    for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,
    as ye see me have.'

    (Luk 24:39)

    In Christ Jesus
  7. Hi @Complete,

    Yes I agree with you. Great.

  8. Hi @Major,

    Isn`t it amazing how we each can read the same scriptures but see it differently – ie. You believe Jesus will reign ON the earth, whereas I believe He will reign OVER the earth from heaven. And thank you for taking the time to write out those scriptures. Now I would like to respond.

    1. Rev. 5: 9-10.

      `And they (24 Elders) sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, & to open the seals; for you were slain, & have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe & tongue & people & nation & have made us kings & priests to our God & we shall reign `epi` the earth.”

      Gk. word `epi`, meaning superimposition of time, place, order etc. ie. over, upon etc

      So we realise that it can mean `we shall reign OVER the earth, or we shall reign UPON the earth.` Thus we need more scriptures to clarify which.

    2. Zechariah 14: 3 – 4, 9.

      Yes God`s word tells us that the Lord will come down to the Mount of Olives & will be King OVER the earth. It does not tell us that He will stay on earth & rule from earth. OVER the earth can be from heaven.

    3. Zechariah 14: 16-17.

      Yes, again God`s word tells us that the nations will go up to Jerusalem every year to worship the Lord. `those who worship Him must worship in spirit & truth.` (John 4: 24) Thus we realise that the Lord does not have to be actually there in His spiritual body for people to worship Him.

    4. Zech. 8: 3.

      `Thus says the Lord: “I will return to Zion, & dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.` So what does God mean by `dwell?`
    `Go & tell my servant David, "Thus says the Lord: "You shall not build me a house to dwell in. For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought up Israel, even to this day, but have gone from tent to tent, & from one tabernacle to another.` (1 Chron. 17: 4 & 5)

    So we see that when God is saying He will dwell, it refers to His holy presence.

    5. Zech. 8: 20-24 like 14: 16-17.
    See `worship in spirit & truth,` in number 3.

    6. Jeremiah 23: 5.

    1. “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign & prosper, & execute judgment & righteousness in the earth.`

      Again we see that God`s word tells us that it is the Lord who will be King over Israel, however it does not say from where He will reign – earth or heaven.
    7. Luke 1: 32-33.

    `Jesus, He will be great, & will be called Son of the Highest; & the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign OVER the house of Jacob forever, & of His kingdom there will be no end.`

    What a wonderful promise for Israel & the nations. And again God`s word uses the word OVER in relation to Jesus reigning.

    Thus I believe to understand the full purposes of God as to where Christ will reign from, we need to study the inheritance of the Body of Christ plus the other kingships of Christ. I would like to start a thread of that soon & maybe we can discuss Christ`s kingship & reigning there.

    Blessings, Marilyn.
  9. #69 Major, Feb 28, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
    "They" indicate that the ones in view here are both the living creatures and elders. The host of heaven joins the church in praise of the Lamb. "A Kingdom and priests" contextually refers to the Tribulation saints. The church has its on IN heaven and not the earth. "Contextually' therefore the focus is on the place which is the earth, there the word "epi" is correctly applied as "ON".

    As a "Literalist" I must disagree with your assumption. I believe the Scriptures say exactly what God meant for them to say. With all due respect, you are trying to make them say what YOU want them to say so as to support a personal teaching or agenda.

    Same response as seen in #2.

    The word "house" in Hebrew, again, contextually speaking of a house for God, is used as a figurative term for the people of God in both the Old and New Test. Christians today are the "house of God", built and ruled over by Jesus Christ the Son of David.

    Same response as posted in #2& 3.

    Same as #3-3 & 5.

    THis is the fulfillment of the David Covenant of 2 Sa. 7:13-16 and the Messianic reign of the Lord Jesus from David's throne in Jerusalem according to Isaiah 9:6-7.

    The Jews were promised the LAND and not heaven. Their Messiah, Jesus Christ will therefore be their Saviour and He will be WITH them in the Promised LAND and reign from Davids throne and not heaven. Heaven is the home of the church which is why New Jerusalem will NOT touch the earth but be suspended above earthly Jerusalem.

    Ephesians 1:10 .........
    "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are ON earth - in Him."

    Micah 4:3 ...............
    He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

    Revelation 21:3-4 .............
    " And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
  10. Thanks for your reply Marilyn, I suppose it will have to pistols at dawn (poor ol Dawn in the firing line again) or we could agree to disagree on this one and go on in The Lord together . God bless you!
  11. #71 Complete, Feb 28, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
    Hello @ATP,

    I want to thank you for compiling this detailed entry (#53), for I believe it may have been in response to my saying, in the entry prior to it (#49), that I was unsure as to the chronology of end-time events; and this you endeavoured to provide. This was very kind of you, thank you.

    I have printed it off to consider off-line.

    In Christ Jesus
  12. Hi @Seedsower,

    I do agree THAT we disagree, but have great confidence in the Lord`s Holy Spirit to continue to lead us into all truth.

    Now I do have a question for you & Major & any others.

    Q. If the Lord is ruling ON the earth, walking around, (as it were), why then is there still - sin, sickness, disease, death in the very presence of the Lord of Life, the one who holds the keys of death?

  13. #73 ATP, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
    Thank you Complete. This one is more up to date. I do recommend reading that book too. It'll answer all your questions. The future Antichrist will be a kingdom and not just one person...

    Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal

    1. The Antichrist Kingdom signs peace treaty with Israel to begin the 70th week Isa 28:15 NIV, Isa 57:8-9 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 John 1:7 NIV, Rev 6:2 NIV, Rev 6:8 NIV.
    2. The third temple (the holy place) is built Exo 26:33 NIV, Ez 40-48 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV..
    3. The first 3.5 years are birth pains, the first four seals are open along with apostasy of Jews Dan 11:36-45 NIV, Matt 24:4-7, 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, Rev 6:1-8 NIV.
    4. Michael the angel, the restrainer is then removed at the middle of the 70th week Dan 12:1 NIV, 2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV, Rev 12:6-12 NIV.
    5. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week now begins.
    6. At the middle of the 70th week Satan is cast down and the Antichrist Kingdom sets up the abomination of desolation in the holy place and wages war against the saints Exo 26:33 NIV, Dan 7:19-26 NIV, Daniel 8:23-25 NIV, Dan 9:27 NIV, Dan 11:31 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Matt 24:15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:3-4 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV, Rev 12:6-17 NIV, Rev 13:1-10 NIV.
    7. Immediately after the abomination of desolation takes place the fifth seal is open and the Great Tribulation begins, man's rebellion against God Matt 24:21 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV.
    8. This is right around where the two witnesses make their appearance and prophesy for 1,260 days Mal 4:5 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV.
    9. The false prophet/second beast then forces people to receive the mark of the beast or be martyred Rev 13:11-18 NIV.
    10. Then the Great Tribulation is cut short around the middle of the last 3.5 years Matt 24:22 NIV.
    11. Immediately after the Great Tribulation ends cosmic disturbances occur before the Day of the Lord begins Isa 13:10 NIV, Isa 34:4 NIV, Joel 2:30-31 NIV, Joel 3:14-15 NIV, Matt 24:29 NIV, Mark 13:24 NIV, Luke 21:25-28 NIV, Acts 2:19-20 NIV, 2 Pet 3:10 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV.
    12. The 144,000 are then sealed before the rapture, so they can enter the Day of the Lord without harm Rev 7:2-4 NIV.
    13. Rapture occurs at 7th seal, after the Great Tribulation and on the Day of the Lord Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, Rev 8:1-5 NIV.
    14. The Bema Seat of Christ is here Matt 16:27 NIV, Luke 14:14-15 NIV, 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, Rev 19:8-9 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.
    15. The Feast/Marriage Supper of the Lamb is also here Luke 14:14-15 NIV, Rev 7:9 NIV, Rev 19:1 NIV, Rev 19:9 NIV.
    16. Then begins the Day of the Lord, the start of God's wrath of trumpets. The 5th trumpet will also last five months Zeph 1:2-18 NIV, Rev 9:5 NIV.
    17. At the end of the 70th week the beast will kill the two witnesses, but after 3.5 days they will come alive Rev 11:7-12 NIV.
    18. Very few people will be left after the 70th week is complete Zech 13:8-9 NIV.
    19. Jesus landing on the Mount of Olives on the Day of Atonement is here Lev 23:26-32 NIV, Ezek 16:59-63 NIV, Ezek 36:33 NIV, Ezek 37:23 NIV, Dan 9:20-24 NIV, Zech 3:9 NIV, Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:6-12 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV, Zech 13:8-9 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Mal 3:2-4 NIV, Matt 25:31-46 NIV, Rom 11:25-27 NIV, Jude 1:14-15 NIV, Rev 19:11-21 NIV.
    20. After the 70th week is complete the bowl judgments begin for 30 days, the time of mourning Num 20:29 NIV, Deut 34:8 NIV, Dan 12:11 NIV, Zech 12:10-14 NIV.
    21. Then the 45 days begin for cleansing of the Temple Dan 12:12 NIV, Zech 13:1-6 NIV.
    22. After the 45 days are finished the 1,000 year millennium begins Isa 11:6-9 NIV, Isa 65:20 NIV, Rev 20:4-6 NIV.
    23. Nonbelievers will also be a part of the 1,000 year millennium Zech 14:16-19 NIV.
    24. After the 1,000 years are finished, the dead believers and nonbelievers that are left over will be judged Rev 20:11-15 NIV.
    25. Then a New Heaven and a New Earth will appear making everything new Isa 65:17-25 NIV, Rev 21:1-8 NIV.
    26. Lastly, Eden is restored in which we now live with Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen Rev 22:1-5 NIV.

    Side Note 1: The full seven years are never called "the tribulation period", rather the 70th week is the proper name to describe the seven years.

    Side Note 2: The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same event. The GT is man's rebellion against God, and the Day of the Lord is God's wrath against man. These two events are split in half in the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The church will have to go through the first five seals and also the GT, but they will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls. The church will witness the signing of the peace treaty, the third temple built, the first four seals opening, the abomination of desolation, the two witnesses, the fifth seal opening, the GT of man's rebellion and the sixth seal of cosmic disturbances in the sun, moon and stars before they are raptured.
    chili likes this.
  14. Thank you again, @ATP. I shall take a look at the link you have provided. If in doing so questions arise, I will start a new thread (but let you know that I am doing so, so that you can respond).

    With love in Christ Jesus

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