Jehovah, English or Hebrew?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Spiritofprophecy, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. Greetings in the name of Jesus: If i may give a little Hebrew perspective to the word Jehovah and name Jesus.; I only speak for clarification, not to demean others beliefs. Names are important, but faith and Jesus are what's paramount, in my opinion. If I may speak to the origin of Jehovah: which is not found, or used in any Hebrew text or in way today or at any time as to Hebrew, that is documented. The word Jehovah,is a redaction of a real Hebrew word " Yahweh". which word is a real Hebrew word and even used today in Israel. In fact the word Yahweh is a combination of two words, which are two of the most commonly used words in Hebrew... Ya and Weh pronounce Zay today..Yahzay...

    If I may quote the Scripture where term use of Yahweh originated. Exodus 3:13-15.> 13. " And Moses said unto God, Behold, when i come unto the Children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14. And God said unto Moses, I am that I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. ".. Yah and weh, combine to mean. " I am", if God himself used the term..Ya, Yo, and Ye are abbreviated terms for God..Example is the name Jesus, which in Hebrew is Joshuah...Which in Hebrew means "Gods salvation"..Yo = God, Shua as salvation...

    My point, is Hebrew speakers never have used the term "Yahweh" as a name for God, its only descriptive term. Let me give an example of the term Yahweh, or Yah Zay is spoken today. God says Yahweh, which tranlates as " I AM"... but if Moses went to the people of Israel and said... " Yahweh hath sent me" People would not hear of interpret " I AM" but from Moses the term Yahweh, then becomes "God Is" or " God exists". The Term Yah, Means God, but interpreted as " I " if God so so speaks it.. If a person uses the term Yah or yo or ye, as prefix to another term, it becomes God not I. Weh or Zee, is the most common verb in Hebrew, meaning ; " it is, Is it, Am" and a few other tenses..

    The point here is that the term Yahweh, is a generic term which changes meaning depending on who and how the terms are used. And Jews, or Hebrews would never apply such a simplistic variable term for a Classical name for God.

    This term Yahweh, should again show that Gods name is secret unto the Jew Hebrew people. Which secret name for God is confirmed again later in Judges 13: 17-18. Which is why the people of Israel, are known in ancient times, as " The people with a God of no name". The Names used by Hebrews for God was Eloheem and Adoniah...God and Lord respectively. If I may suggest, the true name and Holy name of God is the name we use as our Lord.."Jesus" or in Hebrew " Yashua" ! I hope I did not confuse the issue for any one, by expressing the Hebrew interpretation on the word Yahweh.

    I pray my words will not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.
    gemma and Ginger say Amen and like this.
  2. "Jehovah" is a rather poor attempt to make sense of the "Tetragrammaton", (the four letters). The "name of God" used in the Old Testament
    was often the four Hebrew letters Yod He Vau He, thus with a little Latin morphing of sounds, you get "Jehovah".
  3. Jehovah is man's erogance claiming to discover what God has hidden. The Hebrew writing had no vowels (as Glomung pointed out).

    People love to feel smart in discovering something no on else knew! YHWH didn't say "my name is I AM" He said, Tell them I AM sent you.

    SpiritofTruth did a wonderful job explaining, IMO.

    To claim God's Name is Jehovah, is on the same level with "Andy"....Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me, Andy tells me I am His own...... Okay, that one's probably gotten old. ;-)

    Anyway, Did you know the Jehovah Witnesses (and probably other groups, as well) take credit for "discovering" the name of God?

    However, I do like that song, Days of Elijah. - Mark Robin version!
  4. I learned a lot from this thread. Thanks.

    Ginger, I checked out Paul Wilbur's version, too. I like both versions.:)
  5. Jesus or Yeshu'a cannot be taken as the "Name of God." God the Son only became Yeshu'a when He came to earth, it was not His Name before that. Also, it has only ever been the Name of God the Son ... never of God the Father, nor of God the Holy Spirit.

    On the other hand, God Himself claims YHWH as His Name:
    Exo 3:15 "And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." (LORD being a translation of YHWH)

    Exo 6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

    Isa 42:8 "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

    When God says His Name is YHWH, then I for one am quite happy to say that is His Name.


  6. Greetings in the name of Jesus;..:)

    Using only KJV, or Torah of Hebrew. People who do not speak Hebrew, should not interpret Hebrew...For the Record, there is not One Mother tongue Hebrew speaker born in Israel ( Sabra). Who would accept YHWH, as officially Gods name. It's like in English, A Swahili African, saying " You" or " He" or " big fella" is Gods Official Name.. We are speaking about Hebrew derivations, are we not..? Yes. YHWH is two of the most common used generic terms in Hebrew, Fact...!..Not to mention it is clearly a factual truth, that Jews the Israel people, are known historically as the " people with a God of no Name". which is confirmed in Scripture. Judges 13:17-18. Where God is speaking to Manoah father of Sampson, Gods name is Secret. Fact. If Gods Name was. " I AM" in Hebrew,,. Everyone knew that phrase and words and Gods name would not be secret to Manoah.! fact. YHWH, It's not secret. But Jesus name to Come, was and is secret, and even today, is still a mystery of God to the Gentile and Jew.

    When men Look upon Jesus, do they see the Father, as Jesus says? And every Scripture speaking about Gods deeds, So is a corresponding exact scripture about Jesus. God Is One, and Jesus is Divine.

    Isaiah 9:6. Unto us a child is born, his names shall be called, the Wonderful counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

    Who is this Child born in Isaiah 9:6-7 ? Child's names include, the Everlasting Father and mighty God.? Or, is Isaiah spreading false Rumor..? Jesus as God, Burns true to Scripture, and confirms " One God" everlasting,

    If we burn all things unto the word...There is One God, who only God can forgive Sins. Of which Jesus not only forgave sins, but is eternal, Hebrews 7. And met Abraham after Lot being free...If there is One God, and Jesus this one God, " when you see Jesus, you also see the Father". Jesus and the Father are one; Where God took upon himself flesh " Jesus". And became the " Glory of God"..I know this is hard for many Gentile, or Pagan Origins to perceive, As Peter so warned. But it is True, the Messiah is God. Emanuel " God with us". Believing YHWH, and Jehovah derivations of Hebrew English redacted terms, that these are Gods name, is fiction of English middle ages pagans. Of which these terms historically are derived. The term Jehovah does come from the Middle ages.

    In the sense of cooperation and peace; Let me add that if one believes Jesus is a Second God, or Little God, yet not the Father but is Salvation from God. Then you are with us. And I shall not deny or condemn.
    But as Scriptures and Ten commandments so state. There is only One God, and Jesus is either this God or not. One God, Monotheism, is a Truth of God. Polytheism is a Pagan concept which lives and espoused by many today.. And As it is written.. " I have corrupted mine inheritance" so says God. We Gentiles are the corruption, whom, God loves. The Wild vines, grafted into the pure vines of God. I guess one can believe Jesus, as one can believe Jesus is a second lower God, and also still be saved by grace.

    Salvation, It's not my call, but I seek only to speak to truth. Jesus is the "Child born, whos names shall be called, Wonderful counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.! Is Monotheism, a One God theology, or is the Bible wrong..?

    This is the greatest secret of God...Jesus is God the Father. And the One and only God.

    I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.:)
  7. I agree with you SpiritofTtuth, but I think what Lynn was saying is that God gave Moses YHWH as an identifier, a way to identify who He is to the pharaoh. Altho no onw knows God's name, YHWH works like a name in that it identifies who sen Moses.

    That is why when Jesus said "I AM" the pharisees wanted to kill him - they knew Jesus was claiming to be the One and Only God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!!!!

    So, Lynn was merely pointing out, if God chooses YHWH as His unique identifier (name), ....

    Am I correct, Lynn? That is what I got out of what you said.
  8. Hi again.
    As Lynn pointed out there are at least three places where the Lord declares "Yahweh" (also represented as YHWH and Jehovah) to be His name (Hebrew "shem" - pronounced "shame"). The word "shem", like the word "name", can refer to what one is called as well as a "reputation" and the reputation / authority associated with a name.

    However in those passages Lynn quoted it only has one meaning that accords with the context and that is "THIS is the name by which you will know me and the name by which you will always know me. It is the name I give myself".

    I must admit though I too am not sure why you are making an issue of this matter. Are you saying Moses and Isaiah were wrong to declare (as they do) that He has told us this is the name He is to be known by? Are you saying the translators of the KJV you uphold as an authority (I prefer to use it too) have got it wrong for they too translate it as being the name by which He is to be known and called? Are you suggesting we call Him by another name He has not declared to be His?

    Just seeking to understand what you are trying to achieve here.

    As regarding Jesus (Joshua / Jeshua) are you aware that to claim Jesus and the Father are the same person was heretical to the churches of the Apostles? That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person is NOT a teaching of the Apostles and the first churches they established but of the heretical churches and movements that sprung up after them and against which they had to constantly fight.

    BOTH the Bible and the early church declares the Godhead to be three persons infinitely united, not one person inexplicably divided. There are other threads where I have explained and shown that this is true and in accordance with scripture, but if necessary I can discuss it again if it will help here.
  9. Neither did the Apostle teach the Trinity...... we are using a man-made explanation of who Jesus is in relationship to his deity. Man's words can never come close to describing God.

    I didn't think that was what SpiritofTruth was claiming.....I'll be interested to see his answer.
  10. He ends with this comment:- "This is the greatest secret of God...Jesus is God the Father. And the One and only God." which, to me seems to advocate that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person which is quite contrary to what the Bible declares.

    Much confusion is caused because people do not grasp that "God" is not a specific reference to Jehovah Himself but to all "godlike" beings (the elohiym) including Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Angels. The elohiym are also referred to in the Bible as the "Sons of God". Jesus referred to the Father (Jehovah) as the ONLY true God but in doing so also indicated that He (Jesus) was not referring to Himself as the only true God but to His (and our) Father in Heaven, Jehovah.

    But I do NOT say Jesus is a lesser /smaller / littler god for Jehovah has vested all HIS power and authority in Christ Jesus who rules all things FOR Him Jesus does the will of the Father in the FULL power and authority of the Father. There is nothing lesser, snaller, or littler about Him. For all purposes Jehovah and Jesus are ONE - but not the same person that is all.

    I clarify it because it is an error that is the cause of a great many other errors and misunderstandings.

    But you are right - and wrong in saying that the Apostles did not teach the "Trinity". "Trinity" is a concept that came later and it needs to be properly defined exactly what people mean by the word "Trinity" before we can say whether or not the Apostles taught it. BUT the Apopstles did always teach that you cannot separate the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When they baptized people it was in the name of the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit. The Bible make clear that the Son and the Holy Spirit do only the will of the Father and not their own, That they speak on behalf of the Father and not on behalf of themselves. They are united as one in all things but they are three seperate persons.
  11. Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

    Dear Forum Readers;...

    After reading my previous post, It would seem I have a problem with clarification and Making a " Jewish point" as to Monotheism.

    There is Three points which I am making to have Christians abide in Jewish establish traditional truth. which truth I believe the early Christians also accepted and believed.

    The Original purpose was to the term Jehovah. Only for clarification did I suggest to not use the term Jehovah, and to replace it with YHWH....! Which any where that Jehovah is used, is a Redaction.!!! As others have rightly acknowledged as true. Jehovah is an embellishment or Tetragrammaton of YHWH.

    Also in the Original Hebrew Exodus 6:3. " And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Issac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by the name of " I AM" (YHWH) was I not known to them." To me this says " I AM" is not Gods name, and so Hebrews do interpret it so.

    Using the Scripture offered above as Jehovah,,, Replace it with Jesus, and you will see...Isaiah 42: 8-16... wow if reading this believing it is Jesus, it is a perfect depiction of Jesus life and return again.

    I repeat again; that to the Jew, Messiah is God, which Jesus acknowledged that he is Messiah. And the term Messiah is confirmed through prophets and the word, as the One God and also Emanuel, " God with us".

    Peter expressed a problem with non Jews being allowed the salvation and acceptance, since they(we) are Paganized into a Polytheistic belief..." Myriad of Gods", and demi Gods....This has merit.

    Which is the same as saying, I am not known to my People as a name I AM,; which is true to this day. God is not known to the People of Israel as " I AM".. If then God had written,...after " I AM" which is my real name. But it doesn't say or imply this, and all Jews interpret it as rejecting " I AM" as Gods name.

    My suggestion here is that Hebrew interpretation, should be the Gold standard as to interpretations, especially since we had Prophets of God to come and make clear and " Make the way straight" for men. My Point here, is that not one Prophet, did establish the Jehovah or YHWH as Gods name, to establish it as a tradition or truth of Scriptures..It wasn't until the 12 century and Christianity through translation texts, did the word " I AM" take on a divine status. If we apply " I AM" to Jesus, I have no problem, abiding then in the One God sure precept of God. Jesus the One and Only I AM....But do we divide God?

    My final point is.. Under Monotheism, One God, if Jesus is God; and then all scriptures. before and after Jesus birth. We reread these verses, imputing Jesus as God, the scriptures take on a whole new and broader and complete understanding and meaning. In another and simple words...Everywhere God, YHWH, Lord, Jehovah is used in scriptures..One may substitute the name Jesus; and in most cased through faith that it's true, the scriptures then open up to readers with a greater profound meaning..

    I pray this forum will forgive me for my Boldness and being preachy, for time is short...

    I pray my words will not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it..:)
  12. Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

    If I may, let me expand upon, false Jewish interpretations by Christians..." Son of God".. Many people believe this would imply, that God had a progeny son in Jesus. That Jesus was Actually Gods descendant or lesser God. Which would result in a 2 God appearance...Polytheism. Messiah to a Jew could not be interpreted this way. One God is established, not just a guideline truth.

    The confusion which I see, is about the word " Son", used in "Son of God". Which in Hebrew is " Ben"..

    If readers would relate to the Movie;.." Ben Hurr"...Interpreted as " Son of Hurr"..Which has traditional Hebrew meaning of " Man of the House of Hurr"..Relate this in English, to " Sons of America". Using it in the generic sense...Hebrews always depict their people as "Sons and Daughters"...As Jesus Himself for clarification, Called Himself,,," Son of Man"..Implying a generic use form. There was not a " Man" father of Jesus...! Jesus was before and after his death ( eternal)...Time has not meaning to God, which time exists not, being Omnipresent.

    Son of God, should be interpreted as " A man from the house of God". not related to progeny.God became flesh Jesus was and is eternal. But the Holy Name of Jesus, became holy when he defeated Satan on the Cross, and defeating death for all time....Amen..! And become the Glory of God for his namesake...Praise and Glory be unto God..!! Jesus.

    I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.:)
  13. Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

    If I may add another perspective, related to Question and statement " Greatest secret of God".. and " Jesus is God the Father".. Of course Isaiah 9:6. Does say he shall be called the " everlasting father"..

    My suggestion and addition to theme,.. To not prejudge Gods words quickly, but take every thing in perspective as given....God is depicted as a Tree, having Branches; Which Jesus is a Branch.

    The Question then becomes, if God is a tree, and Jesus a branch. Is the tree and branch one and the same, Is the branch not the tree, or tree not the branch. Which branch was cut off, and died...Did the tree then know death...? Is it written That God would become as Grass...?

    Many have suggested, that the almighty God cannot die, or become death. If God is Omnipotent, cannot God do what man can do..? become flesh and Die..? And by doing so, defeat the power of Death and Sin for all time through faith.! Amen. Glory unto God and his Salvation Jesus. Wow...! This always humbles and amazes and awe's me, that God would die for us, through love..! God will rule through Jesus, and his Kingdom have not end. Amen.

    God can have different faces, and manifestations; and yet still be one God almighty. Jesus is the High priest of the order of Melchizedek. A heavenly Godly priesthood.

    I am sure, this lowly servant, did not answer all questions clearly to perceive; I will in humility stop, or elaborate upon request.

    I pray my words do not offend God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.:)
  14. God the Son is God's representative to man. Son of Man is man's representative to God.
    Same person.

    God manifested Himself as Jesus on earth; He manifests Himself today as the Holy Spirit.
    The God who manifests Himself is One; One in Three Persons.

    Spiritofprophecy, I assume that you are posting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not conjecture.
    Therefore, how is it that you pray that your words will not offend?
  15. Spiritofprophesy,

    I offer this as something for you to consider rather than a debate for the word of the Lord in both the OT and the NT make it abundantly clear that Jesus is not Jehovah / YHWH and Jehovah / YHWH is not Jesus. I see no point in debating what the word of the Lord so plainly declares. We all can read what the words of the Lord actually say. I am only drawing attention to what THEY say, that is all.

    The first point is that JESUS Himself declares there is only ONE true God - BUT it is not Him.

    John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent"

    Here Jesus refers to ANOTHER as the ONLY true God. To claim Jesus is YHWH is to contradict the assertions of Christ Himself. Jesus never claimed to be His own Father. Nor did He claim to be a ventriliquist speaking from Heaven while He was here on Earth. (just highlighting with a little humor the problem of Jehovah being in Heaven speaking to those on earth at the same time Jesus was on Earth talking to the SAME people.)

    If you are insisting we use the Hebrew name "YHWH" for Jehovah why are you not also insisting we use the Hebrew word " elohiym" instead of the English word "God"? Is it because the word we translate as "God" (elohiym) is NOT used of YHWH alone but is a generic term for a "godlike" one in much the same way that "man" is used to denote one who is human?

    In the OT the word " elohiym" (god) is often used to refer to the many "sons of God". in fact Psalm 82 ( "YE are GODS" - note plural) is used by Jesus to justify HIS Claim to also be the Son of God and hence ALSO elohiym ( god) like His Father. As Psalm 82 clarifies ALL sons of God are elohiym ( gods). But as the OT often declares YHWH is the GOD OF GODS. ( BTW this is a title the Bible never gives to Jesus. it stops at "Lord of Lords and King of Kings"). Or as Jesus declared the one TRUE God.

    One final note to consider, I have a copy of the OT AS TRANSLATED BY THE JEWISH Publication Society. Even the Jewish translation declares the same as the KJV that LORD (YHWH) is the NAME of the God of Gods, the God almighty creator of all things.
  16. Another passage from the word of God you might want to carefully ponder:-

    First note that ALL things are put under Jesus EXCEPT the one who put all things under Him. THAT person (YHWH) is the one whom even JESUS HIMSELF submits to and makes himself subject to. If Jesus were YHWH this would declare that Jesus has put everything except Himself under Himself and then subjects Himself to Himself. I don't think I need to
    point out just how silly that would make this passage.

    But the other thing to consider is that from this passage we know DEATH is an enemy. if Jesus were YHWH it means that death has power over The God of Gods Himself. if God was dead and Death is the LAST enemy to be defeated who is there left to defeat Death? You have already declared the only God was dead and therefore not in a position to do anything at all.

    EXCEPT that YHWH and Christ be two separate persons YHWH could not defeat death and raise Christ.

  17. Greetings in the name of Jesus:

    As to Non Hebrews language speakers, contemplating on and about a Hebrew context stories and individuals.. One may choose not to accept established Jewish concepts and established themes...

    Let me not equivocate;...Those who receive not or hear not the Judaic interpretation of Scriptures along with truth about Jesus as Messiah...Those people will " Perceive poorly" the things of God...

    As an example.. As President, General manager and Maintenance man of my Rental Co... I also speak in three voices, and infer things, that should be only infered, but not embellished as emperical truth...God puts many stumbling blocks for man to deceive himself, through personal desires. God is not the author of this Confusion.

    As maintenance man, if asked how to contact the President. Which Maintenance man can infer and speak about the president in the third person. One may infer that this meant, that I am not the President, but they would "perceive poorly"...! Since there is only one God, God only does some things alone..." Forgiveness of Sins" for one...One would be foolish then to perceive that one forgiving sins, is either another or different God. This is an absolute truth. There is only one God, An empirical Judaic truth.

    Again I point to scriptures which speak to " precepts of men" KJV..Isaiah 29. Christianity or Doctrinal Christianity has embellished and added to Scriptures to the extreme. And strayed from the roots of Judaism, which is its foundation. With Jesus the Messiah as the King, Lord, God and Salvation of all Scripture..

    If One accepts Jesus, then one may be Polytheistic and claim Jehovah, or even the Tooth fairy..And I will not condemn them. But this is not of the roots of Judaism, but " precepts of men" and denominational doctrines. which included " flat earth". and Insomnia as a demonic possession. So my brothers and sisters in Christ, may separate themselves from Judaism, the foundation which Jesus was the fulfillment of Judaism. Jesus infers many things which only those rooted in truth may discern into its actual truth. Parables are made to deceive the Natural man, and those not of or with God.

    Dear Mr. Mistmann:

    With respect, if I may ask... If Jesus is not God the Father, and they are not one and same;.. then who is Jesus, a second God. or a Prophet of God? When God Said.." there are no other Gods before me" did he forget about Jesus...Would not then Isaiah in Isaiah 9:6. Saying The Child born "names shall be called... everlasting Father and mighty God"..was he spreading false rumor. With respect.....All the alleged " Infers" saying "Jesus is saying he is not God", or not God the Father: is interpretation of perception desires, and not actual truth. Jesus does leave it open for interpretation, those who perceive Jesus, as not God the Father also, do perceive poorly....But to the Jew of One God, if Jesus is Messiah, he is the father, and God made flesh. So is the belief of all the Disciples of Jesus...Who perceived not as Gentiles perceive; but as true Hebrews.

    I am only giving the Messianic Hebrew perspective or Judaic based Christian view. If you don't seek to perceive and receive or know what they think; you may feel free to not read these posts and or ignore. But all may feel free to read, and disagree; but I ask that you try to understand the Judaic foundation for Messiah. Messiah, is God the Father. Who will rule all things...We Christian gentiles are who that does perceive poorly these Jewish truths...Blessed with Grace through faith in Jesus. If one puts faith in Jesus, he has hope.

    I pray my words do not offend, which are my words and paraphrases of Scriptures. God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.
  18. I will leave people to judge for themselves your words in the first part of your post as you have not backed them up by reference to the word of God or any official declaration by Messianic Jews (I note you identify yourself as a "Christian gentile" in the last part of your post and include yourself among those who "perceive poorly these Jewish truths"). You have simply made vague and unsupported generalisations. I am doing this because I do not deal in vague generalisations and assumptions but in supported facts and realities, especially as relating to the word of the Lord.

    But you have asked me a specific question so I will answer that. But firstly let us clarify what (Ex 20:3) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." actually means. The words "before me" ("paniym" in Hebrew) means in front of, ahead of or facing (as in equal to) Him. In other words you shall not regard any elohiym (god) as having equal or greater authority than Jehovah/ YHWH. The very command itself infers there are other elohiym (godlike ones).

    But as to who is Jesus the Bible makes it clear He existed in "the beginning" and Jesus declares that even before Abraham was He existed. In other words He existed as Elohiym (son of God) before His incarnation / birth in the flesh (Son of Man). In the OT it is clear that He is the one referred to as THE Angel of the Lord, and in Isa 63:9 as "The angel of his presence". As THE ANGEL of the Lord it is the preincarnate Jesus who spoke to Moses, FOR the Lord, from the burning bush. The Angel of the Lord is the one who speaks FOR the Lord which is perhaps why Isaiah refers to Him as the Angel of His PRESENCE inferring that when the Angel of the Lord is present it is as if the Lord Himself is present.

    It should be noted He is always referred to as THE Angel of the Lord and not merely AN Angel of the Lord indicating a special position and relationship in the eyes of the Lord. Those who saw the face of Yahweh perished but there was no such punishment for those who saw the face of the Angel of the Lord who spoke with a number of people face to face in the OT.

    This same Jesus has now been given ALL power and authority in Heaven and Earth. ALL things have been placed under Him except the one who placed all things under Him (that being Yahweh Himself). It should be noted that before His ascension Jesus declared that "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Mt 28:18) Use of the word "given" infers a "giver" and a "receiver". That is, two seperate persons not one. Jesus cannot be given all power and authority if He is the only one who already had it.

    Jesus is the arm of Isa 40:10 that rules FOR the Lord. He is the right hand and holy arm of Psalm 98:1.

    People often quote From Isaiah 9:6 "...and the government shall be upon his shoulder ..." thinking it means the government of the Earth, but the Earth will perish. Isaiah was not talking about the government of the Earth but the government of the entire UNIVERSE (what the Bible calls "Heaven") and everything in it INCLUDING the Earth.

    I hope this answers the question you have asked.
  19. Misty, I must disagree with you!

    I do not have time to discuss this right now, but I sincerely hope you did not mean this the way it sounds.

  20. Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

    Dear Mr. Mistmann:

    Again I ask, from where did you get this Interpretation..? In other words one may say...I am a Jehovah Witness, or Mormon or etc.... That would explain a lot. I just sought and asked for a little bit of foundational thought behind your perception. No offense, but you are calling the Interpretation of 3000 years of Judaism about Messiah, as contemptible theology to receive...You do know your a Polytheist ? ..Which makes the One God commandment as false teaching...And Like I said before, one may believe in a 2 Gods or however many, as long as Jesus is your Lord, you are with us...I praise you for that. But this doctrine which I hear, to me sounds like J.W's or Mormon...Both of these are rooted out of Middle ages theology; at least as to the doctrine of Jehovah as to documented theology.

    I must admit I find your interpretation of Exodus 20:3. as if in a vacuum. We have Hebrews according to you, interpreting these verses wrong...that's 4000 years of not having it right, even though Prophets made straight; and even Jesus confirm what has come before as to Interpretations.

    For others who are not rooted in Middle ages " Jehovah" redacted Christianity; Let me speak to the Plural forms of Hebrew..there is really no plural in Hebrew...Elohym or Pronounce Elo heem today.. ...This term is not Plural, although like all terms in Hebrew, they can be plural or singular .. Eloheem is a Masculine term; All Hebrew takes on a gender form, either Masculine or Feminine. Hebrew language designates this by adding eem for Masculine, and adding "oat", for feminine. In Hebrew one speaks differently or different words based upon gender spoken too...Example the word "you"....Would be spoken as "ot" to a man, but "0tta". to a woman. And about every word is the same principle, including Elohym...or Eloheem...It is Masculine term..As to Plural...That is a Non Judaic Hebrew concept, out of Institutions of men today, and false, according to " Hebrew University".

    For Mr. Mistmann or any who believe I was too vague; or without being specific about a topic, I can embellish to the extreme. But seek to be brief to not bore the readers with my posts....I do find the Multiple God Judaic truth espoused by Mistmann as a different Judaic interpretation experience. Never have heard Jehovah Polytheists Christians espouse this interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures, as to " One God", from the ten commandments, not meaning One God.. I am assuming you do claim to be a Christian also.

    One last point about Jesus being Heavenly Father made flesh. Jesus was all God, yet made as grass, and a complete Human, taking on flesh..Jesus took up the complete persona of flesh and Human, speaking as a Human, and in third person, being the " Lamb of God to the slaughter". The Only person ever to be " Begotten Of God", Knowing where he came from, and where he shall return. Claiming to be present at the founding of the earth. Jesus to make a sacrifice of flesh for sin, for all flesh; must then be totally Human, to make the sacrifice valid and complete, as if only being Human, or being " fully Human" which Jesus was. Being the Only sinless man ever..Sinless because of Gods spirit within. Jesus being totally Human, must do things and speak to all and God, as if, a Human only should speak.Being the father, but speaking as the lamb or Son only..! And why we have some various interpretation about the words of Jesus. Who did speak in " third person" as to God in Heaven. Which can deceive those not well versed in established Judaic Doctrines and Hebrew derivations about Messiah. I apologize if I have missed some ones question, or not clear as to answers.. I well try again, if some one requests.

    I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:)

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