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Israel has not been forever set aside.

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by JohnMark, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. Israel has not been forever set aside.

    Has God rejected his people?

    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1 English Standard Version

    "That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture."


    'That Israel has not been forever set aside is the theme of this chapter (Romans 11).

    '(1) The salvation of Paul proves that there is still a remnant (Romans 11:1 )

    '(2) The doctrine of the remnant proves it (Romans 11:2-6).

    '(3) The present national unbelief was foreseen (Romans 11:7-10).

    '(4) Israel's unbelief is the Gentile opportunity (Romans 11:11-25).

    '(5) Israel is judicially broken off from the good olive tree, Christ (Romans 11:17-22 ).

    '(6) They are to be grafted in again (Romans 11:23, 24).

    '(7) The promised Deliverer will come out of Zion and the nation will be saved (Romans 11:25-29).

    'That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture. The Christian is of the heavenly seed of Abraham (Genesis 15:5, 6; Galatians 3:29), and partakes of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 15:18, Scofield note); but Israel as a nation always has it own place, and is yet to have its greatest exaltation as the earthly people of God. See "Israel" (Scofield note, Genesis 12:2; Romans 11:26); "Kingdom" (Scofield note, Genesis 1:26-28; Zechariah 12:8).'

    Bibliography Information
    Scofield, C.I. "Scofield Reference Notes on Romans 11:1". "Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)".

  2. Why are you making a new thread about this, when we are discussing this on another thread already??

    I have never said that God has permanently rejected the literal Jews, they are just as welcome into Gods family as the Gentiles are.

    We are now all the same to God, God does not distinguish between races or nations!

    “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34, 35).

  3. Yes, God's salvation is also offered to Gentiles (non-Jews).

    "The Gentiles shall see your righteousness and all kings your glory" (Isaiah 62:2).
  4. "Israel always means Israel"

    "Israel always means Israel"

    (Source: The Israel Of God, written by: Dr. Thomas Ice,


    'It is not just a theological belief that "Israel always means Israel," and that Israel and the church are distinct peoples of God. These things are specifically taught in the Bible. ...the final week of Daniel's seventy-week prophecy...will end with Israel's conversion to Jesus as their Messiah. This will lead to the thousand-year kingdom in which Israel will be the head over all the nations. Not only does the Bible distinguish between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the church, but it also teaches a distinction between saved and lost Jewish people in Galatians 6:16. This is one of the things denied by replacement theology. C. E. B. Canfield has said the following concerning this matter.

    'It is only where the Church persists in refusing to learn this message, where it secretly-perhaps quite unconsciously!-believes that its own existence is based on human achievement, and so fails to understand God's mercy to itself, that it is unable to believe in God's mercy for still unbelieving Israel, and so entertains the ugly and unscriptural notion that God has cast off His people Israel and simply replaced it by the Christian Church. These three chapters [Romans 9-11] emphatically forbid us to speak of the Church as having once and for all taken the place of the Jewish people. ...'

    To read more go to:
  5. Double Vision
    Have you ever been hit so hard on the head that you start seeing double? Well, from what we have studied together, the Christian world needs a loving “bonk” on the head with this New Testament truth, so that more people start “seeing double” about the subject of Israel! According to the New Testament, there are now two Israels. One group is composed of literal Israelites “according to the flesh” (Romans 9:3, 4). The other is “spiritual Israel,” composed of Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ.

    Paul writes, “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Romans 9:6). How’s that for proof! That is, not all are part of God’s spiritual Israel who are of the literal nation of Israel. Paul continues: “That is, They which are the children of the flesh [physical descendants of Abraham], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed” (v. 8). The children of the flesh are only natural descendants of Abraham, but the children of the promise are counted as the true seed. Today, any person—Jew or Gentile—can become part of this spiritual nation of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.

    God Looks on the Heart
    Just as there are two Israels, there are also two kinds of Jews. First, there are the Jews who are only natural, physical descendants of Abraham. Second, there are the Jews in Spirit who believe in Jesus Christ. Paul writes, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest on the law, and makest thy boast of God. ... For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision [Gentiles] keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God” (Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29).

    Did you catch that? The implications are staggering! Someone who is “called a Jew” because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, “is not a Jew”—at least, not in God’s eyes. His “circumcision is made uncircumcision.” It is revoked. Thus to God, he is a Gentile. And a believing Gentile, who through faith keeps “the righteousness of the law,” his uncircumcision is counted for circumcision. Thus to God, he is a Jew.

    John the Baptist paved the way for this principle when he warned the Jews not to trust their literal ancestry for salvation. “Bring forth therefore fruits meet [worthy] for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham” (Matthew 3:8, 9).

    Later, Jesus echoed this same principle in a showdown with the religious leaders. “They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (John 8:39, 44).

    Paul also writes, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (Galatians 3:7). “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh” (Philippians 3:3). Thus, according to Paul, a real Jew in the sight of God is anybody—Jew or Gentile—who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!

    Eventually, this truth hit Peter between the eyes, and he told a room full of Gentile converts, “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34, 35).

    Spiritual Israel
    By Doug Batchelor & Steve Wolberg
  6. All Israel Saved?

    Since we’ve gone this far, we might as well go all the way! Only Jews will be saved. Furthermore, all Jews will be saved! Now after you pick yourself up from the floor, allow us to explain these bold statements.

    We all know that people are saved under the new covenant, right? Now notice the wording of this new covenant: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah” (Jeremiah 31:31).

    And in the book of Hebrews, Paul expands on this concept: “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. ... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more” (Hebrews 8:8, 10–12).

    The new covenant is made “with the house of Israel”!
    God never makes a salvation covenant with Gentiles. In fact, nowhere in Scripture do you find any saving covenant made with anyone but Israelites! So if you want to be saved, you must be born again as a spiritual Jew. This is not to say that all Christians must now be circumcised and sacrifice lambs, but we must have the spiritual equivalent of these things—Jesus, the Lamb of God (the final sacrifice), and circumcision of the heart.

    God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different one for non-Jews. Everyone is saved the same way under the same program—by grace through faith. Paul uses the analogy of an olive tree to explain that all Gentiles who are saved are grafted into the stock of Israel. “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root [supports] thee” (Romans 11:17, 18).

    The Christian religion is based on a Jewish manual called the Bible. (In this light, it is difficult to understand how any professed Christian could be anti-Semitic.) Christianity is not a new religion, but rather the completion of the Jewish faith. So with this in mind, we can now better understand what Paul meant when he said, “And so all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). Some take this verse to mean that God will ultimately save all literal Jews. If this were true, it would contradict every principle of God’s dealings with humans throughout history and Scripture. God is not a racist. In Jesus’ eyes, “There is neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28).

    We are saved based on choices we make regarding God’s provision, not on national status or physical citizenship. But if, when Paul says that “all Israel will be saved,” he is speaking of spiritual Israel, and if we understand that we become a “true Jew” only by a choice, then it all makes sense.

    Same source as my post above.
  7. What?



    Please address what I've actually said. I don't care to defend remarks and statements I have not made.

    You write: 'THE BIBLE SAYS: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him. Rom. 10. 12.'

    In another place the Bible says: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

    When the Bible says that, it's talking about there being no distinction as far as salvation. If there is literally no such thing as Jew or Gentile, then also there is literally no such thing as male or female. Neither statement is true. Both are equally absurd. We know that both Jews and Gentiles really exist. We know that both males and females really exist. We open ourselves to error when we take figurative Bible passages literally and literal passages (such as those that speak of the nation Israel) figuratively.

    You write: 'God does not distinguish between races or nations!" You are correct. Where salvation is concerned there is no distinction between races or nations. But in my postings I was not addressing the issue of salvation. I was discussing literal, earthly promises God made to literal, earthly Israel (Jews).

    You write: 'God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different one for non-Jews.' I never said He did.

  8. The church is never called "spiritual Israel"

    The church is never called "spiritual Israel"

    (Source: The Israel Of God, written by: Dr. Thomas Ice,

    Galatians 6:16 (English Standard Version)
    And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

    '[Preterist and covenant theologian, Kenneth] Gentry believes that Galatians 6:16 teaches that the church has replaced or superseded Israel.

    'If Abraham can have Gentiles as his "spiritual seed," why cannot there be a spiritual Israel? In fact, Christians are called by the name "Israel": "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy by upon them, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).[4]

    'There is such a thing as "spiritual Israel." Spiritual Israel would refer to Jewish people who have trusted Jesus as their Messiah; but the church is never called "spiritual Israel," as Gentry claims. Let's look at Galatians 6:16 and see what it actually says.

    'The passage is simple and clear. The first part of verse 16, which says, "those who walk by this rule;" refers to the rule Paul had just stated in verse 15. "For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." This is a spiritual category referring to all believers, to which Paul pronounces a blessing: "peace and mercy be upon them." This is followed by his copulative comment "and upon the Israel of God."


    'Johnson is saying that there is no textual or exegetical basis for Gentry's belief that Galatians 6:16 teaches that the "Israel of God" includes the church or Gentiles. Gentry's replacement theology or supersessionism-as he likes to call it-has no basis in the biblical text. It must be that he is so blinded by the demands of his false theology that he continues to insist upon such an interpretation of the Bible and his resulting errant theology. I wonder, along with Lewis Johnson, why "In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains persistent support for the contention that the term Israel may refer properly to Gentile believers in the present age."[7]

    To read more go to:

  9. THE TEST.........


    Jesus said.......... John 15:18
    If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you


    No- people on this planet................have been hated as much as the Jews.
  10. So you are referring to a site that believes in the pre-tribulation theory and the invading NON-BIBLICAL Left Behind-scenario as a source to rebuke spiritual Israel??
  11. Can you please explain to me:
    * Why would God give the Jews an earthly literal temple right before Jesus comes back?
    * Why would the Jews need a literal temple when the temple was used to sacrifice animals before Jesus died on the cross to be the sacrificed lamb for everybody??

    After Jesus died on the cross the veil tore apart as a sign that there was no longer need for a physical temple for anyone, because we are now the living temple of God and Jesus is our lamb.

    "..for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2.Cor,6..)
    John the Baptist referred to Jesus as the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29)

    And after Jesus comes back the whole world will be in ruins and everybody but the rightouss are dead, so
    * Why should Jesus leave the Jews in a physical temple here on earth for 1000 years when all other christians are safe with Jesus in heaven??

    That wouldn't be fair either, I hope that is not true for the sake of the Jews...
  12. LA-girl,

    In which of my posts in this thread did I use the word temple?

    Grace and peace,
  13. JohnMark wrote:
    Ok, so if it is not a rebuilding of a new temple (which most christians are emphacizing), what earthly promise are you talking about?
    That all the Jews will be saved?

    Btw do you dismiss the theory that the (literal) Jews will have their earthly, physical temple rebuilt?
  14. What are God's promises to Israel?


    What earthly promise(s) to Israel am I talking about?

    'After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) God will restore Israel to the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, ...[He] will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital at Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

    'Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial...understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years...'

    To read more go to:

    As for your other questions, in general I choose not to participate in long, drawn-out, detailed debates. In particular, I do not care to participate in such a debate over the meaning of the temple or of Romans 11:26 ("And so all Israel shall be saved"). The Bible teaching regarding God's keeping His promises to Israel does not stand or fall on the meaning of the temple or the interpretation of Romans 11:26.

    Grace and peace,
  15. In other words you are supporting the SECRET RAPTURE, Left behind theory where christians are being caught up secretly to heaven while life on earth continues for several years (7) after?

    Btw did you it was a jesuit priest who invented this theory?

    I would advise everyone to take a look at the following quote, also by Doug Batchelor.

    Not a Secret
    Will there be a rapture? Yes. Will it be a secret? NO! Rapture means "to be carried away with power," and it is true that when Jesus comes we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). But many have come to believe that this rapture will take place quietly-that faithful Christians all around the world will suddenly disappear and that life here on earth will continue for a seven-year period of tribulation. During this time, they say, many will be converted and have a "second chance" at salvation before Christ's final coming.

    Although the secret rapture scenario may appear comforting at first glance, there is absolutely no scriptural support for it. The Bible plainly teaches that when Jesus comes again, every one of our senses will be bombarded with evidence!

    His Coming Will Be Literal
    "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11.

    Heaven-sent messengers told the disciples that Jesus would return to this earth in the same manner He left. Christ left in the clouds, and He will come back in the clouds. He was visible when He left, and He will be visible when He comes again. He had a real body when He left, and He will return the same way.

    His Coming Will Be Visible"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Revelation 1:7.

    "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:27.

    "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30.

    When Christ comes, it will not be merely a local sighting or an isolated event. It will be visible across the entire world.

    His Coming Will Be Audible
    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

    "The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout." Jeremiah 25:30.

    "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Psalm 50:3.

    Christ's second coming will be loud! There will be shouts and trumpets and all kinds of noise. No one will accidentally miss it or be able to read about it in the newspaper the next day.

    His Coming Will Be Emotional
    "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Luke 21:26, 27.

    "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." Isaiah 25:9.

    When Christ returns, it will be an emotional day for the wicked and righteous alike. The lost will experience indescribable fear and anguish, while the saved will experience the perfect joy of eternal salvation.

    His Coming Will Open the Graves
    "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40.

    "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1 Corinthians 15:22, 23.

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

    This is the Bible's description of the rapture. The dead in Christ will rise by His power and will meet Him in the air. Afterward the faithful who are still alive will also be caught up. It will not be a secret!

    His Coming Will Destroy the Earth
    "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again." Isaiah 24:19, 20.

    "And the heaven [sky] departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Revelation 6:14.

    "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." Revelation 16:18-20.

    This world will be uninhabitable by people after Christ comes. His coming will shake the very foundations of the earth.

    His Coming Will Mean Final Judgment
    "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27.

    "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

    It is at Christ's return that we will receive our final reward. Each person's decision will have already been made; there will be no second chance to convert. The time to make a decision to follow Christ is now!

    Basis for Confusion
    With so much evidence in the Bible as to the manner of Christ's coming, where do people get the idea that the rapture will be a secret event?

    As with most deceptions, the secret rapture theory is based on a few texts which have been taken out of context. There are two main concepts in Scripture that have been used to substantiate a "secret" rapture.

    The primary one is that Jesus will come as "a thief in the night." The secret rapture theory assumes this means that Christ will come secretly to steal away the righteous and carry them quietly to heaven.

    Christ's coming is described as "a thief" several times throughout the New Testament. Let's look at one of these passages and see if it describes a secret rapture. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10. That doesn't sound like a secret event to me!

    In describing His return as a thief, Christ did not intend to show that it would be quiet, but that it would be sudden and unexpected-that the wicked would be taken by surprise. He said, "If the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:39, 40. Likewise, Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." 1 Thessalonians 5:4. God does not want His followers to be surprised. He wants us to be watchful and ready.

    (Other scriptures used by pre-trib supporters: read the article)

    The Bible is very clear that when Jesus comes back, His feet never touch the ground. It says the righteous will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is why Jesus emphatically warns us, "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Matthew 24:26, 27, NKJV.

    Satan cannot replicate a worldwide, cataclysmic event the magnitude of the real second coming. But if he can seduce Christians into believing the secret rapture theory, he won't have to. He can simply show up around the world in various places, perform great miracles, make TV appearances, and thereby deceive the entire world.

    The whole article:
  16. Now I believe that is what you call the secret rapture where christians are suddenly and silently raptured up into heaven? Now look at those verse a little closer:

    1 Tess 4:16-17
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Now that does not at all sound like a SILENT/SECRET rapture to me....
  17. LA-girl:

    Are both of us participating in the same discussion? Are both of us talking about the same thing? I have no idea how what you said has anything to do with what I said.

    In a debate (or discussion), it is useful if you respond to the points the other side makes. I don't have time for replies that totally ignore the points I've attempted to make.

    I am truly sorry, but this is the last time I will reply to you in this thread. In replying to my posts you repeatedly tell me what I am saying, which usually turns out to be something that I did not say and, in some cases, you include words or whole phrases I never even used. We cannot continue to dialogue as long as you keep doing this. "Secret rapture." Now where in my previous post do you see the WORDS "secret rapture"? :confused:

    If you want to know what I believe about the rapture, all you have to do is ask me. I'd be happy to tell you. You needn't speculate about what I believe. Moreover, what I believe about the rapture or the temple has little if any relevance to the main issue, which is: Has Israel been forever set aside?

    If you don't care to reply to the points that I bring up in my posts, then I see no reason to continue to reply to you.

    I say this with no ill will toward you. It's just that I think it best to end our discussion. No hard feelings.

    Grace and peace,
  18. JohnMark:

    If you take a closer look at my post :
    You will see it was a question, not a claim...
    So what is your theory about the rapture?
    I just want to get to the bottom of this and I believe discussions like these are an excellent way to find out the real Bible-truth.
    But if you would like to end the discussion I would have to respect that of course.

    You wrote:

    To me it seems like at least you believe there is a rapture prior to Jesus second coming. So in other words this supports the pre-trib theory right?

    I believe the Bible teach that the rapture occurs not prior to, but when Jesus return (first the rightouss dead and then the rightouss living). After that God will destroy every living creature and all the human works (buildings) and the earth will be left desolate for a thousand years while all the saints will be in heaven, in the city that Jesus has prepared for us during the 1000 years where all the rightouss will be a part of judging the lost. That means we will be able to see why the lost are lost so that we will trust that God is making a just judgement. After the 1000 years the new city will ascend down from heaven to this earth where the Final judgement will take place. After everybody is given their just punishment, everybody (lost) will in the end be burnt up completely and only ashes will be left. When all sinners and sin is completely removed from this universe it is time for God to create the new earth. It will still be this earth, but this earth made new and perfect!

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