Isaac vs. Ishmael - Israel vs Arab nations ...?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by wwjosh19, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. There are many question that puzzled me, let me start with this one.
    Are all human being created equal ?
    I do not understand why the Israelites is the chosen people. Are other people seem lesser in God's eye. My understanding is that from Ishmael (son of Hagar) came the Arab nations and from Isaac came Jacob the Israel. The animosity between the seeds of both have been from time immemorial up to now. Throughout history God stands on the side of the Israelites. And modern history from the 1948 establishment of the Israel state to now until eternity, Israelites are the favored son. Almost as if in this overall scheme there are those who are created as villains against God's chosen. I assume no one want to be Judas but someone has to take up this role otherwise the salvation would not happen the way it was. It is almost this is a big production directed by God and He has selected the role for each one of us. I heard different explanation but yet to fully satisfied with the answer.

    I want to believe God as just and fair and a loving Father to all his creation. I try not to dwell on this too much for it can mess up my faith. But when I look all around the world to see living condition of the Palestinians, how they are treated ( regardless how politically they end up where they are), I just have to ask.
  2. Often this discussion ends in the direction of freewill vs predestination.. Probably we just have to be careful not get into those discussions.. Irrespective of the view of salvation, I think the answer is same.. Lord is not partial.. Man's depravity is not because God caused it to be that way.. Man is depraved purely because of man's sin (when I say man, I am referring to human race as a whole including women!) Scripture is very clear about this.

    Israel was a chosen nation. There is no doubt. But it does not mean, Canaan was doomed for destruction. It was the sin of Canaan which forced them out and lead to their destruction.

    Genesis 15:16 After four generations your descendants will return here to this land, for the sins of the Amorites do not yet warrant their destruction

    This was promised to Abraham. Here we can see, Lord telling Abraham that Israel would be in slavery. The canaanites were forced out of their land because of their sin. We also see all through the Bible how Lord saved people when they showed faith. Rahab is the best example for this.. She is from Canaan.. She had the faith.. In Lord.. She was saved.. Nineveh is another.. Lord never destroyed anyone after they had showed faith and repentance.. This is echoed all through the Bible..

    To put it simply, this is my belief.. People go to hell only because they rejected the Gospel message.. People go to heaven only because Lord saves them.. Both these statements are enforced strongly all through the Bible.. The converse of the statements are never mentioned in Bible (people go to heaven because they chose God and people go to hell because God did not save them). It is hard for human minds to grasp this parallel truth.
  3. God is impartial Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. Being partial is evil, there is NO evil in God 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. We give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. God wants us to grasp how great His love is for all Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.

    Now many twist the truth. God bashers / devil like to quote half truths Matt 3. We need to always take all scripture before forming a belief on something. Those who believe strongly in God's partiality quote Rom 9. But they ignore the rest of scripture. There is only one scripture needed to blow God's partiality from omniscience out the window and that is John 3:16. Of course Rev 3:20 sheds light on John 3:16. Belief = letting Jesus in.

    God was not partial when He chose Abraham. He scoured the earth for someone. Abraham still had to pass a test. Then God made a promise to him, which He stuck to. The promise was from day 1 to Jacob. It is not Jews vs the world or God loves Jews only. God HAD to choose someone. He chose Abraham. He chose Jacob. It is neither here nor there. Jesus, planned for us all (Jews incl) before the foundations of the earth is what it is all about. 1 Pet 1:20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

    Yes, God protected the Jews. Yes, God gave the Jews great prophets. But God also gave the Jews His commandments and harsh punishment for disobedience. God expected more from them. This can be seen as a curse and a blessing.

    God needed the Jews for a purpose. Jesus. Can you imagine Jesus popping out of the womb of a witch doctor in a tribal village in Africa? God needed to protect the seed of Abraham from satan for Jesus. Not because He loves Jews > others.

  4. I don't know if I would say God "had" to protect the Jews.. The below verse comes to my mind. The pharisees thought they were safe and God had to protect them or save them because they were Jews.. But John the Baptist reminded them that is not the case.. Being a Jew meant nothing.. Did not make them anything special..

    Mathew 3:9 Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham.’ That means nothing, for I tell you, God can create children of Abraham from these very stones
    JG27_chili and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  5. :giggle: Have to love his sense of humor. What is interesting though is that they could say they were protected, being sons of Abraham. It was just made clear that that is nothing special. God protects all who are His.
  6. I dont understand it either but God had to choose someone. He chose Abraham. Then all his descendants were blessed because of him, not cos they did anything, but because of Abrahams obedience.
    The covenant he had with Abraham stood the test of time and shows God keeps his promises, even when the Israelites failed to honor it. We are grafted in to this covenant which is made even better because of Jesus.

    Everyone is welcome to partake of the divine if we simply believe in what Jesus did, which is the new covenant.
    JG27_chili likes this.
  7. Yes I think so. that phrase is more on free and equal in rights…

    Not to be confused on what social status, land or money you got….. OR EVEN not to be confused with privileges or gifts one got….

    Judas, he has the same rights as Peter, I guess….

    Palestinians, they have the same rights as the Israelites… I guess….

    more question now, what is rights? freedom of speech, practice one's religion?
    or are those with more privilege or more gifts than other human is a question of equality in rights?
  8. Ishmael was not part of this blessing because he was conceived in disobedience. However God still made him a great nation and actually blessed him in other ways, but he had to be sent away. God could have punished Hagar but instead he sent her an angel and let her live.

    I think both sides show aspects of human nature that need to be transformed by Gods grace- knowing Jesus.
  9. Just thinking, .. which is heavier: a betrayal (Judas) or a denial (Peter)….?

    And as I understand, both, Judas and Peter are both warned…

    And I think both have the same rights to ask for forgiveness….

    So one practicing one’s right, is a question of “Are all human being created equal”?

    I don’t think so …

    It is a matter of choice…. of freedom to choose....I think.
  10. God chooses and we choose to accept, its two way...God loves us first though. He allows is to make that choice. Up to us whether to trust and obey.

    Does that help?
  11. Scripturally speaking, there's nothing one can say, but if one repents and calls on God's Name, Joel 2:32 and Rom 10:13, they will be saved. The rest is just fluff.
    Major and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  12. Ahh...but because of Jesus Christ, we who are Gentiles and come from paganism and were no better than Ishmaelites, by faith are now grafted in and considered favoured by God. Israel collectively reject their Messiah, and it is something that has worked in our favour, or salvation may never have been offered to us. I thank God for our Messiah, and at the same time I appreciate God's heart toward His people, Israel, and how unfathomably patient He is toward them. One day soon, Israel will receive their Messiah with joy!

    God is completely fair to all.
    JG27_chili likes this.
  13. There is a lot of depth to this statement. My thought is that mankind is incapable of doing good but just evil. So for a person to do good (or the intention of) are from God. So in other word God chooses a man to accept God, do good and be saved. So how does God choose who to enlighten and save and who He allows to be fallen. Seems to me it is very subjective. As in Roman 9:13 " "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." To me Jacob was not exactly a role model of good behavior. He is deceitful and self centered. Yet he was blessed as the patriarch of Israel and Esau I really have no idea where he was in God's eye.

    Chemistry wise, I can say all men are equal in that we are made up of so many lbs of oxygen, nitrogen, Hydrocarbon, metals etc. What gives each one of us the unique spiritual trait ? Seems to me we are we are by DNA as well as molded by later environment when we grow up.

    I can force myself to accept God as fair and just but intelligently it is difficult.
  14. He sees into peoples hearts.
    Well Jacob was a no good actually he behaved pretty awful but God obviously saw something.
    God didn't already decide before born because of the actions of each brothers, they could chose- like Esau gave up his birthright for a lentil stew. He actually did have the birthright..but gave it up!!

    So...there you go. Of course we can't decide which order we born in. But I think God looks at each and everyone of us and takes that into Joseph certainly wasnt first..
  15. Just want to add since Jesus was the only begotten son and the firstborn of many brethren..if we place our trust in Him we get all the benefits of the firstborn child through Jesus. We become co-heirs.
    Waggles likes this.
  16. Two scriptures come to mind as I wrestle with these questions. I do not think I will ever find a satisfactory answers. One day we will know.

    Ecclesiastes 12 :13-14 "Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil"
    I Corinthians 13:12-13 " 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    I really appreciate all these sharing. I have been saved for 40 years, been a roller coaster ride. Matthew 6:33 had been my anchor verse but I am not quite sure anymore. May be " everything will be added unto me in the 'next life' ".
  17. There are so many hypothetical questions that people can ask.. If God is all powerful, why not smite the devil? Why not stop evil? (He is certainly able).

    We have the ability to ask these questions only because we are created in the image of God :) I wonder if God would smile at us when we ask these questions :D Just like how we would smile at our children when they try to act all intelligent :D

    Once Ravi Zacharias mentioned this.. Got deep into my heart.. Every time we question character of God based on our moral standards, we must never forget the fact that He is indeed the moral law Giver..
  18. The fruit Adam and Eve ate was from the tree of Good AND Evil... the ability for a bad man to do good is possible, just as the ability of a good man to do evil. Their DNA was infused with the knowledge of BOTH good and evil. Choice. Just like the choice they had to believe God or not; to eat from the tree or not; to be obedient or not. The DNA is the mind; the storehouse of our existence since Adam and Eve. Scientists say that 97% of our DNA is junk (an uber-super-duper arrogant statement) but in reality it holds our experiences, our parents experiences and our grandparents experiences. If my grandfather had an eating addiction and didn't repent of it, it would be passed down to the child. Same with them; if they didn't deal with the sin, it's passed down to me. Now lets say no one has an eating addition, but my favorite food (ice cream) is removed and I'm upset about it - unnaturally - and when I can make my own decision, I eat until I'm a diabetic. Even though I could lose my eyes, legs, and kidneys, I still eat, I can't say no - unnaturally. I have kids before it gets bad, they will have the same desire, but the choice is theirs to give into it or not. Scientist have already proven this scenario in mice. They actually breed into mice three generations down, fear of an object. Amazing! The Scriptures can be taken literally!

    Scientists have found genetic markers for the Levite tribe and the actual priestly "gene". Of all the tests that could be done, the one, THE ONE, found was the priestly tribe. Again, it's prophecy because of Revelation 11:1-2. No priests, no temple. God choose one man over another, to make a peculiar people, literally, a separated people. Daniel was blessed because he chose to do it God's way and his body and mind were different, better than the others, so he was chosen. If we do it God's way, we will become what God wants us to be: Kings and Priests. Yep, it's that's simple. Weeding out the sin clears up the DNA... Who knew? Oh, God did! :p
    Big Moose likes this.
  19. There is a scary verse in Proverbs 16: 4
    The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    and again more verses about God working his purpose on Earth -
    For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Romans 9: 15-18

    The Scriptures say that God deals with all human beings individually, but that he also deals with nations. He uses both to fulfill his will.
    As for the direct descendants of Abraham and the nation state of "Israel" we see purpose in the opening genealogies of Matthew (14 generations) and again in Luke the who begat whom... this was to create a people of promise for the coming of the Messiah the anointed one for the salvation of the world.
    Again today we see the remnant of Judah in the modern born again nation of Israel surrounded by many enemies. The purpose here is to create a nation of promise for the second coming of our Lord of Lords and King of Kings in glory who will at last be revealed as the Messiah, the Saviour of his people and of all who have believed in the gospel. The nations will be destroyed mostly by their own actions - nuclear war.
    Jesus will intervene to save Israel and the elect.
    God is always dealing with obedience and disobedience; righteousness and wickedness; wheat and tares...
  20. #20 KingJ, Mar 6, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
    Please read this link to grasp the context of God ''hating'' Esau

    God does not hate anyone. God is love 1 John 4:8. If we read God as literally hating any person we are just failing on language comprehension and grasping God. It is a figure of speech. Consider Prov 6:16-19 There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness {who} utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.

    Does God hate the flesh and blood that is a hand? God hates a tongue? Or what the hand and tongue does..?? I would think the answer is painfully obvious if we just read it as is. God hates sin, loves the sinner!

    We all have a weak flesh. It is so easy for us to sin. But sin NEVER condemned anyone to hell. Consider those in Abrahams bosom and Hades OT. Both with sin. David committed mortal sins. But he repented. All God wants from any of us is sincere repentance Psalm 51:17
    My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

    You go to Hades and then hell because you love the darkness John 3:19. You go to paradise / heaven because your love for God is genuine Rom 12:9, you hate sin and deny yourself to His will Matt 16:24.

    I think you are stuck on God's omniscience. How can a God who knows everything send people to hell. Just remember as ants we can only look at where the evidence points. It points to us being able to hate or love what we do right now. Only brains is needed for that. Just because God can do something does not mean He does. Can and do are different words. God is the bright morning star, an all consuming fire...of good. There is NO darkness in Him AT ALL!!! 1 John 1:5. Meditate on that for a while.


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