Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?

Our bodies will have been caught up and changed to incorruptible and we will have gone with the Bridegroom to His home! We---the Bride---will have been enjoying the wedding all during the time of Tribulation on Earth. Then, Jesus will come to set up His Millennial Kingdom, and we will ride with Him in white.

Sothen in your opinion He only comes as far as the clouds (half way down) collects us and then returns to heaven for seven years....but the Bible says that when He comes in the clouds the whole world will see Him...can you provide scriptures that tell us your view? Thanks
 
Yeah only a confederation of 10 has not happened yet...
The Bible doesn't say it will be a confederation. It says that the Ten Horns are the divided fourth kingdom (Rome) into separate kingdoms, and the parallel prophecy of Daniel 2 says that the Ten Toes of the image, "shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave one to another even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Also, we should expect that the Ten Horns would arise immediately after the fall of the fourth beast (Rome) just as the second, third, and fourth beasts arose immediately after the fall of the kingdoms preceding them - the Historicist Reformers concur.

Interestingly, many secular historians of late who reject the Bible conclude exactly what the Reformers did about the Ten Horns - that when the dust from the fall of Rome, Ten barbarian kingdoms (in the midst of which the Papacy shot up and became the Supreme Religio/Political authority over them for 1260 years) prevailed and evolved into the following:

Anglo Saxons (England), Alemannai (Germany), Visigoths (Spain), Suevi (Portugal), Francs (France), Lombards (Italy), Burgundians (Switzerland), the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths. The last three were completely wiped out by the Papacy for their refusal to submit to Papal authority, as Daniel says: "I considered the (ten) horns, and behold, there came up among them another "Little Horn" (Antichrist) before whom three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots." Later, other nations arose to become part of modern Europe as it is today.
 
As the word tells us that when Jesus comes, He will be bringing the saints with Him, that would be impossible.
That speaks of the time when New Jerusalem comes down "as a bride adorned for her husband", AFTER we have been already caught up to Jesus in the first resurrection of His second coming and returned to heaven with him for the millennium to judge the wicked, AFTER Satan and his demons are confined to the Earth in "chains of circumstance" with no one to deceive b/c they all dropped dead as "dung on the ground" at Jesus' glorious second coming. When New Jerusalem will come down with all the redeemed inside the city, the wicked will be resurrected to stand in white throne judgment, destroyed, and then the New Heaven and New Earth are created.
 
According to the ECF, Paul told them it had nothing to do with the present, but that he had previously told them that it was the Roman Empire, but Paul did not want to identify it in the letter lest it fall into the hands of the Roman authority. Futurism, the Jesuit interpretation of Antichrist in prophecy that came as a response to Historicism, teaches that the Restrainer is withholding the rise of Antichrist in the future.

True.....but that does not tell us "what the restrainer is" that hold back the A/C and his introduction.

My contention is once again that it is the Holy Spirit which indwells in man.
 
Also, we should expect that the Ten Horns would arise immediately after the fall of the fourth beast (Rome) just as the second, third, and fourth beasts arose immediately after the fall of the kingdoms preceding them - the Historicist Reformers concur.

Daniel’s vision is not only about the general world history, but more importantly about these things in relation to his people Israel. Therefore, it is the “we should expect” part that troubles me…the passage says nothing about the “when”…for example, when the Greek Empire fell to Rome Israel enjoyed a very small time period (under the Maccabees) where no outsider ruled in Israel….there was a gap of 100 years until Rome came…now the Roman Empire divided into two (so not yet the ten)….the West presumably fell in 476 A.D., but the East continued until the 15th century under the Ottoman Turks (but predominately one kingdom) until the 20th century…so when is this 10 and if you are saying it is passed then name them…it has not yet (the “when” factor) come to pass…so the people who support the Islam/Anti-Christ view use this to say Islam arose out of the ashes of Rome (but where was the 10?)…the 10 you mentioned are extant while the Roman Empire still existed (in the East)

Whether or not the Historicist Reformers concur or not is irrelevant to me….their slant is no more meaningful or less meaningful than any other slant (to me)…

Here is the point I was trying to make (and in most things I agree with you, not that I am correct on such matters)…

IF it is true that Anti-Christ arose “immediately following the fall of the Roman Empire” THEN either he did and Christ has already returned and consumed him, or He has not returned and the person of the Anti-Christ is still alive (which is unbiblical…he would be over 500 years old)…IF he did already arise and Christ has already returned (and consumed) THEN the first rez and the rapture (gathering together unto Him) have already occurred and the Church rules and reigns with Him forever, we all missed it, and are thus part of the second rez whose names are not written in the Lambs book to be judged according to our works done in the flesh. If so, we are the most sad of all deluded fools….
 
True.....but that does not tell us "what the restrainer is" that hold back the A/C and his introduction.

My contention is once again that it is the Holy Spirit which indwells in man.

So Major (and you know we agree on many things)....IF it is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is taken out, THEN how are those saved during the Anti-Christ's part of the trib saved? Being saved = being born from above = having received eternal life. No! I have to disagree...nothing in the Bible says the Holy Spirit is EVER taken out...certainly not this text...

Also it cannot be "the Church" because Revelations tells us of those saved Spirit filled believers who lost their heads for refusing to take the mark are with Him till He comes...
 
So then in your opinion He only comes as far as the clouds (half way down) collects us and then returns to heaven for seven years....but the Bible says that when He comes in the clouds the whole world will see Him...can you provide scriptures that tell us your view? Thanks

I don't think Jesus even enters the physical plane at the rapture---we go to Him in the spiritual realm. It is not His bodily return. It is the Bride's catching away---our bodily exit. The bridegroom in the Jewish wedding custom always returns with His bride after time spent alone with her, to present themselves as a couple and to set up their home among the people. That pattern will repeat in the spiritual.

When He comes with His Bride, the whole world will see Him, as we will come as the sun "travels", from the east to the west.

According to the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding model, during the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (see Genesis 29:21-23; 27-28) for the seven days of the huppah. After that, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see her.

The New Testament portrays the Church as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5:22-33 (Paul even quotes Genesis 2:24 as the union at the Parousia of the Bridegroom in v.31!); See Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2; James 4:4. In the opening verses of John 14, the marriage covenant is confirmed. Paul continually reminds us of the purchase price and the covenant by which we, the Bride, are set apart, or sanctified.
 
That speaks of the time when New Jerusalem comes down "as a bride adorned for her husband", AFTER we have been already caught up to Jesus in the first resurrection of His second coming and returned to heaven with him for the millennium to judge the wicked, AFTER Satan and his demons are confined to the Earth in "chains of circumstance" with no one to deceive b/c they all dropped dead as "dung on the ground" at Jesus' glorious second coming. When New Jerusalem will come down with all the redeemed inside the city, the wicked will be resurrected to stand in white throne judgment, destroyed, and then the New Heaven and New Earth are created.

Actually, no. You do not have the timeline of events right. The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven after the end of all things---after Jesus and His Bride have come to rule the nations (the Millennium), after the Satanic revolt attempt, after Jesus' overthrow of the rebellion, and after the Great White Throne Judgment. That is NOT the Bride, but it is as beautiful and radiant as a bride.
 
So Major (and you know we agree on many things)....IF it is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is taken out, THEN how are those saved during the Anti-Christ's part of the trib saved? Being saved = being born from above = having received eternal life. No! I have to disagree...nothing in the Bible says the Holy Spirit is EVER taken out...certainly not this text...

Also it cannot be "the Church" because Revelations tells us of those saved Spirit filled believers who lost their heads for refusing to take the mark are with Him till He comes...

God will be reverting back to the Old Covenant time, dealing with Israel, so----how were people considered righteous then, without Holy Spirit's indwelling and convicting power?
 
Sorry Euph....not one of the scriptures you provided says He only comes spiritually (He has been here spiritually since the ascension), nor do they say we are ushered out to heaven for seven years, nor that we celebrate the Marriage feast before His coming (parousia)...even Paul's reference to the so-called "rapture" says...1 Thess 4

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself (at this parousia) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (this is the first resurrection): Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet (apentensis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When He comes (parousia) in the clouds...Mark 13:26-27 - At that time (the parousia) men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming (the Parousia) of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany) in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming (parousia) on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

John likewise tells us in Revelation 1:7, "Look, he is coming (the parousia) with the clouds, and every eye will see him (His appearance), even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

In II Thess 2:8 he teaches - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come

a) a falling away first,

b) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

He then goes on to say, "Remember…he who now lets will let until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (parousia): Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders (the Anti-Christ)"

So His coming in the clouds is His one and only second coming, we are gathered the dead in Christ rise, then He comes down (with all of us) and consumes the Anti-Christ....it is written...so it shall be done...


Paul
 
People just don't get it that the church gos to be with Jesus--PHYSICALLY---and that Jesus' glorious return comes later and he is accompanied by His Bride! I am coming to believe that this is a willful denial of what the scriptures teach. Maybe more faithful study is in order, but there are more spiritually important matters one should be studying.
 
God bless you Euph but I gave you actual scriptures that show the words of Jesus, Mark, Matthew, John, and Paul and they all agree with one another...where are your scriptures that say what you are saying? Not what you have been taught they mean but what do they say...What I presented is NOT a denial of the word of God, it is a reiteration of the word of God...not an interpretation (what they allegedly mean which people argue about) but a quotation (what they undeniably say)....

Even James tells the church (brethren) to be patient until the coming (parousia)....so the church is going to be here (unless we fall asleep in Him before His return)....but when He comes in the clouds is when the first rez happens, the catching up occurs, and when He descends and consumes Anti-Christ (the scriptures say that not me) and every eye, all nations, shall see Him when He comes in the clouds with glory....

There is no secret spiritual coming in the clouds, no leaving for seven years, and then a final PHYSICAL return...anywhere in scripture that I can find....please quote them showing they actually say this....please....
 
God bless you Euph but I gave you actual scriptures that show the words of Jesus, Mark, Matthew, John, and Paul and they all agree with one another...where are your scriptures that say what you are saying? Not what you have been taught they mean but what do they say...What I presented is NOT a denial of the word of God, it is a reiteration of the word of God...not an interpretation (what they allegedly mean which people argue about) but a quotation (what they undeniably say)....

Even James tells the church (brethren) to be patient until the coming (parousia)....so the church is going to be here (unless we fall asleep in Him before His return)....but when He comes in the clouds is when the first rez happens, the catching up occurs, and when He descends and consumes Anti-Christ (the scriptures say that not me) and every eye, all nations, shall see Him when He comes in the clouds with glory....

There is no secret spiritual coming in the clouds, no leaving for seven years, and then a final PHYSICAL return...anywhere in scripture that I can find....please quote them showing they actually say this....please....

The scriptures you use are all telling of the second coming. There is no disagreement there. That is not the rapture of the Church.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the Church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the Church:
Deuteronomy 4:29-30
Jeremiah 30:4-11
Daniel 8:24-27; 12:1-2


None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the Church:
Matthew 13:30; 39-42; 48-50; 24:15-31
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:4-9
2 Thessalonians 2:1-11
Revelation 4-18
 
Last edited:
Rapture vs Second Coming

The event known as the Rapture is when Jesus will return to remove all believers in Christ from the earth. You can find these events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. The bodies of believers who have died will be resurrected. The believers who are still on earth will meet Jesus in the air. This event will happen quickly - the Bible says it will happen in the twinkling of an eye.

The Second Coming is the event when Jesus will return to destroy evil, defeat His enemy the antichrist. He will then establish His Millennial Kingdom.

Jesus will come as a mighty conqueror—and the event occurs over a time period much like a 24-hour day, as the sun traces across the sky over the globe from east to west, so that the entire global population that remains will see Him---and mourn.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war. 12 His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself. 13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. 16 On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.

It will be a supremely violent event:

Jeremiah 25:33
In that day those the Lord has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered on the ground like manure.

Amos 5:18-20
What sorrow awaits you who say,
“If only the day of the Lord were here!”
You have no idea what you are wishing for.
That day will bring darkness, not light.
19 In that day you will be like a man who runs from a lion—
only to meet a bear.
Escaping from the bear, he leans his hand against a wall in his house—
and he’s bitten by a snake.
20 Yes, the day of the Lord will be dark and hopeless,
without a ray of joy or hope.

Micah 1:3
Look! The Lord is coming!
He leaves his throne in heaven
and tramples the heights of the earth.

Zephaniah 1:14
“That terrible day of the Lord is near.
Swiftly it comes—
a day of bitter tears,
a day when even strong men will cry out.

Zephaniah 3:8
Therefore, be patient,” says the Lord.
“Soon I will stand and accuse these evil nations.
For I have decided to gather the kingdoms of the earth
and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them.
All the earth will be devoured
by the fire of my jealousy.

Haggai 2:22
I will overthrow royal thrones and destroy the power of foreign kingdoms. I will overturn their chariots and riders. The horses will fall, and their riders will kill each other.

Malachi 3:2
“But who will be able to endure it when he comes? Who will be able to stand and face him when he appears? For he will be like a blazing fire that refines metal, or like a strong soap that bleaches clothes.

Malachi 4:1
The Lord of Heaven’s Armies says, “The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all.


There are several important differences between the Rapture and Second Coming:
During the Rapture, believers in Christ will join the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). During the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

The Second Coming will take place after the great Tribulation period (Revelation 6-19), while the rapture occurs before the Tribulation. (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

The Rapture is time when believers will be removed or delivered from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9), while the Second Coming will remove unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

The Rapture will be happen in an instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

The Second Coming of Christ will not happen until after certain other specified end times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation 6-18). The Rapture is imminent (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Although the Rapture and Second Coming are similar, they are separate events. It is very important to recognize their distinctions.
 
What you see as two events (as only taught and developed since 1863) is one event...yes we are ALL caught up (the whole body of genuine Spirit born believers)....but when He touches down and the AC is consumed that IS when the wrath against the enemies of God will be poured out...

All the passages referring to our being gathered together unto Him refer to the parousia event, the same event the whole world will see, the same time as the first Rez, and the time the Ac is consumed....all the passages tie this into the parousia event...the scriptures say so therefore I believe them.

Peace be unto you my sister...we will have to agree to disagree....thanks be to God that this opinion does not effect our salvation. I certainly prefer you are correct but as much as I use to be convinced by my modern Evangelical mentors I cannot find the PRE-Trib rapture...as far as I can see here the Church (Spirit filled believers) is present on earth during the AC's short reign (and persecuted)....we will however escape God's wrath. But we can agree to disagree...it is interesting to know this PRE-Trib was never believed on by the Church for 1800 years and still is not accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide...
 
What you see as two events (as only taught and developed since 1863) is one event...yes we are ALL caught up (the whole body of genuine Spirit born believers)....but when He touches down and the AC is consumed that IS when the wrath against the enemies of God will be poured out...

It is a fallacy that says that the two events are only taught since 1863! LOL! This has been understood and taught since the beginning--the word of God reveals it.

Peace be unto you my sister...we will have to agree to disagree....thanks be to God that this opinion does not effect our salvation. I certainly prefer you are correct but as much as I use to be convinced by my modern Evangelical mentors I cannot find the PRE-Trib rapture...as far as I can see here the Church (Spirit filled believers) is present on earth during the AC's short reign (and persecuted)....we will however escape God's wrath. But we can agree to disagree...it is interesting to know this PRE-Trib was never believed on by the Church for 1800 years and still is not accepted by the majority of Christians worldwide...

Yes, it will all pan out in the end, and you and I will not be here during the reign of the Antichrist. I'll be giving you a wink across the feast table....and maybe a little kick or two under it.
 
Well, I believe what God says.
Gap theology is not in the Bible. God says plainly that Jesus was to be killed after the 7 weeks of building the street and walls and after the 62 weeks which followed, which means after a total of 69 weeks, which means during the 70th week. The last time I checked, Jesus was crucified almost 2000 years ago.
 
Gap theology is not in the Bible. God says plainly that Jesus was to be killed after the 7 weeks of building the street and walls and after the 62 weeks which followed, which means after a total of 69 weeks, which means during the 70th week. The last time I checked, Jesus was crucified almost 2000 years ago.

Yes, He was. That doesn't contradict Daniel's prophecy.
 
Actually, no. You do not have the timeline of events right. The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven after the end of all things---after Jesus and His Bride have come to rule the nations (the Millennium), after the Satanic revolt attempt, after Jesus' overthrow of the rebellion, and after the Great White Throne Judgment. That is NOT the Bride, but it is as beautiful and radiant as a bride.

Dear, that had nothing at all to do with what we were talking about....we were not even speaking about the New Jerusalem yet
 
Back
Top