The coming of Christ and the rapture of the church are two separate events---by about seven years.
Is The Holy Spirit Or The Church The Restrainer Of 2 Thess.?
- Thread starter Phoneman777
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The coming of Christ and the rapture of the church are two separate events---by about seven years.
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I'd like to see what Scriptures you base this on.
Excerpted from: http://www.sermonnotebook.org/mark/Mark 66 - Mark 13_24-27.htm , which I highly recommend you consult.
· Jesus is coming again – John 14:3; Acts 1:9-11.
· He is coming to take those who are saved to Heaven in the Rapture – 1 Thess. 4:16-18.
· Everyone that is left behind will enter the Tribulation. It will be the most terrible time of suffering the world has ever known. You do not want to be here for that period of time.
· At the end of the Tribulation Jesus Christ is coming back to this world. All that will matter on that day is where you will be. Will you be looking up when He comes, or will you be looking down? Will you watch Him come, or will you come with Him? I am glad that I have everything settled so that I can come with Him. Somewhere in Heaven, I have a white garment and a white horse, and when He comes, I am coming with Him.
· Jesus is coming again – John 14:3; Acts 1:9-11.
· He is coming to take those who are saved to Heaven in the Rapture – 1 Thess. 4:16-18.
· Everyone that is left behind will enter the Tribulation. It will be the most terrible time of suffering the world has ever known. You do not want to be here for that period of time.
· At the end of the Tribulation Jesus Christ is coming back to this world. All that will matter on that day is where you will be. Will you be looking up when He comes, or will you be looking down? Will you watch Him come, or will you come with Him? I am glad that I have everything settled so that I can come with Him. Somewhere in Heaven, I have a white garment and a white horse, and when He comes, I am coming with Him.
Where's your proof that the advent and the rapture occur on different days and that they are separated by 7 years?
The 7-Year Tribulation
http://tribulationsaints.com/whatisthetribulation.html
The Tribulation is a future 7-year period of time when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. The Church, made up of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for sin, will not be present during the Tribulation. The Church will be removed from the earth in an event known as the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The Church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Throughout Scripture, the Tribulation is referred to by other names such as these:
1) The Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)
2) trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:15)
3) Great Tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the 7-year period (Matthew 24:21)
4) time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15)
5) time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)
The Tribulation begins when a European Leader, also called the Anti-Christ, leads the New World Order to Sign or Confirm a 7 Year Peace Treaty with Israel. In the middle of the 7 years, the Anti-Christ will break the Treaty by going into the rebuild Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and declaring himself God and the Savior of the Jewish people. This event is called the "Abomination of Desolation" and leads the Jewish people to reject the Anti-Christ. This event also triggers the second half of the Tribulation, called the "Great Tribulation" where God for the next 3 1/2 years pours out his judgements on a Christ-rejecting sinful world. The Bible seems to indicate that Salvation is not possible during the second half of the Tribulation, or during the "Great Tribulation".
An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the Tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against "your people." Daniel's "people" are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and what Daniel 9:24 speaks of is a period of time that God has given "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." God declares that "70 weeks" will fulfill all these things
It is important to understand that when "70 weeks" is mentioned, it is not speaking of a week as we know it (7 days). The Hebrew word (heptad) translated as "week" in Daniel 9:24-27 literally means "7" and 70 weeks literally means "70 sevens" (70 times 7). This time period of which God speaks is actually 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off "7 weeks and 62 weeks" (69 weeks total) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves 1 seven (7 years) to fulfill the terms of Daniel 9:24. This final 7-year period is known as the Tribulation period--it is a time when God judges a Christ rejecting sinful world and opens the eyes of the Jewish people to the truth that Jesus Christ is indeed the Messiah and Savior of the world.
Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the 7-year Tribulation period. This verse says, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The person of whom this verse speaks is the Anti-Christ who Jesus calls the "abomination that makes desolate" (Matthew 24:15) in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the Anti-Christ will make a covenant for 1 week (7 years) promising peace to Israel, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the Tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. The only way the Anti-Christ (One World Leader) can stop the sacrifice is if there is a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. This is why a key sign that the 7 year Tribulation has begun is the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
Revelation 13 explains that the beast, or Anti-Christ will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or 7 years. Also see Daniel 7:25 where the "time, times, and half a time" (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to the Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation period when the "abomination that causes desolation" (the beast) will be in power.
For further references about the Tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3 which speaks of 1,260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12 which speaks of 1,290 days and 1,335 days, all of which have a reference to the midpoint of the Tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
http://tribulationsaints.com/whatisthetribulation.html
The Tribulation is a future 7-year period of time when God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. The Church, made up of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for sin, will not be present during the Tribulation. The Church will be removed from the earth in an event known as the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The Church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Throughout Scripture, the Tribulation is referred to by other names such as these:
1) The Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)
2) trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:15)
3) Great Tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the 7-year period (Matthew 24:21)
4) time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15)
5) time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)
The Tribulation begins when a European Leader, also called the Anti-Christ, leads the New World Order to Sign or Confirm a 7 Year Peace Treaty with Israel. In the middle of the 7 years, the Anti-Christ will break the Treaty by going into the rebuild Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and declaring himself God and the Savior of the Jewish people. This event is called the "Abomination of Desolation" and leads the Jewish people to reject the Anti-Christ. This event also triggers the second half of the Tribulation, called the "Great Tribulation" where God for the next 3 1/2 years pours out his judgements on a Christ-rejecting sinful world. The Bible seems to indicate that Salvation is not possible during the second half of the Tribulation, or during the "Great Tribulation".
An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the Tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against "your people." Daniel's "people" are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and what Daniel 9:24 speaks of is a period of time that God has given "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." God declares that "70 weeks" will fulfill all these things
It is important to understand that when "70 weeks" is mentioned, it is not speaking of a week as we know it (7 days). The Hebrew word (heptad) translated as "week" in Daniel 9:24-27 literally means "7" and 70 weeks literally means "70 sevens" (70 times 7). This time period of which God speaks is actually 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off "7 weeks and 62 weeks" (69 weeks total) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves 1 seven (7 years) to fulfill the terms of Daniel 9:24. This final 7-year period is known as the Tribulation period--it is a time when God judges a Christ rejecting sinful world and opens the eyes of the Jewish people to the truth that Jesus Christ is indeed the Messiah and Savior of the world.
Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the 7-year Tribulation period. This verse says, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The person of whom this verse speaks is the Anti-Christ who Jesus calls the "abomination that makes desolate" (Matthew 24:15) in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the Anti-Christ will make a covenant for 1 week (7 years) promising peace to Israel, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the Tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. The only way the Anti-Christ (One World Leader) can stop the sacrifice is if there is a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. This is why a key sign that the 7 year Tribulation has begun is the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
Revelation 13 explains that the beast, or Anti-Christ will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or 7 years. Also see Daniel 7:25 where the "time, times, and half a time" (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to the Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation period when the "abomination that causes desolation" (the beast) will be in power.
For further references about the Tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3 which speaks of 1,260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12 which speaks of 1,290 days and 1,335 days, all of which have a reference to the midpoint of the Tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
Cut and paste is generally an indication that a person lacks the ability to defend their position in there own words. Lucky for you, I know all about Futurism: The "7 year tribulation" idea is derived from a single, solitary verse in the "Prophecy of the 70 weeks" that is found in Daniel 9:27:
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make itdesolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. "
Do you see anything there about an Antichrist? Do you see anything there about a "7 year tribulation" period? Is there anything in there that indicates that we are to take this prophecy that is "70 weeks" long, chop off the last week from the previous 69 and send it down to the end of time, and insert a 2,000 year gap in between? Can we still call it "70 weeks" with 2,000 years stuck in the middle? Can you see that all this is purely subjective and purely Jesuit Futurism? It was fabricated by Jesuits to combat what the Protestant Reformers taught: That Jesus confirmed the covenant of the New Testament with His believers for one week - for 3 1/2 years Himself and 3 1/2 years "confirmed...by them that heard Him" (Hebrews 2:3). It was Jesus that caused the sacrifices and oblations to cease b/c once Jesus offered Himself as the final sacrifice for sin, every single Jewish sacrifice thereafter was just a BBQ in the eyes of God. It is JESUS who is the focus of the "70 weeks" prophecy, which has such power to convince first century Jews that Jesus was the Messiah, that they put a RABBINIC CURSE on any Jew who would attempt to find Messiah in this prophecy!
Sorry, but I don't lack for too much concerning eschatology. My offering in response to your request is sufficient because it states very well everything I wish to say. You don't have to read it, but that would be pride preventing you.
The covenant spoken of in Daniel is not between Jesus and anyone. it is between the world system and the Antichrist. It is a common mistake that many make to consider it to mean Jesus, when with a modicum of study, one can see clearly that it is not Jesus Christ. during the Tribulation, the sacrificial system will be revived, and God is pleased with it, and there will be a continuation of some parts of that system right into the Millennium.
The covenant spoken of in Daniel is not between Jesus and anyone. it is between the world system and the Antichrist. It is a common mistake that many make to consider it to mean Jesus, when with a modicum of study, one can see clearly that it is not Jesus Christ. during the Tribulation, the sacrificial system will be revived, and God is pleased with it, and there will be a continuation of some parts of that system right into the Millennium.
You are right on with this one Phoneman777...the scriptures say the "coming" and rapture and the first resurrection all happen same day (probably within the twinkling of an eye)...and that when He comes it will be no secret...the whole world will know it...likewise this is the exact event at which Anti-Christ is consumed...thus he was already here and did his thing BEFORE we are gathered to meet Him in the air...now that's word...
Paul
As the word tells us that when Jesus comes, He will be bringing the saints with Him, that would be impossible.
Well, God Himself asked Job if the most powerful creature on earth, the "king of all the children of pride" will make a covenant with him. Perhaps it is your pride that prevents you from accepting the fact that nowhere in the Bible is Satan or his agents spoken of as covenant makers; the Bible definitively says they won't do it. The covenant in Daniel that is said to be "confirmed with many" was done so by Jesus when He said those wonderful words as He held out the cup, "THIS is MY blood of the New Covenant which is shed for MANY."
Political leaders do make covenants, the last time I looked!
Jesus is not the one who will be making that covenant.
Daniel 9:26-27 (NLT)
“After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. 27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”
Daniel 9:26-27 (AMP)
And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off or killed and shall have nothing [and no one] belonging to [and defending] Him. And the people of the [other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.
27 And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.
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Seriously? God is going to mingle a silly treaty among men with one of the most important Messianic prophecies in the OT?Political leaders do make covenants, the last time I looked!
Political leaders do make covenants, the last time I looked!
Jesus is not the one who will be making that covenant.
Daniel 9:26-27 (NLT)
“After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. 27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”
Daniel 9:26-27 (AMP)
And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off or killed and shall have nothing [and no one] belonging to [and defending] Him. And the people of the [other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.
27 And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.
Yep.
Y'know, Matthew Henry, Jamieson Fausset Brown, Adam Clarke, Marin Luther, and too too many to list here disagree. They also thought it was silly to cut off the week, stick in a 2,000 year gap, and still call the prophecy "70 weeks" long. Like if you asked me how far it is from the Canadian border to New Orleans, and I told you oh, about 100 miles, and you got on the road and discovered it was a 20 hour drive and when you finally arrived and was ready to strangle me, I said, oh I forgot to tell you, there was a 2,000 mile gap between the 99th and the 100th mile. Just silly.
Well, I believe what God says.
Yeah only a confederation of 10 has not happened yet...
No its not...all these are those who died in Christ (see Revelations 7)...its our bodies which will rise...and all in Christ who are alive at the time will be caught up so they also will be with Him when He comes...the words caught to meet focus around the Greek term "apentensis" this is like when a group of like minded supporters (say the president was coming to town) go ahead to meet an official before he actually arrives and come in with his procession...also "apentensis" tells us that when He comes again it will be all the way to His destination, not half way and then back before a final coming all the way...we are caught up to apentensis Him in the air....
Our bodies will have been caught up and changed to incorruptible and we will have gone with the Bridegroom to His home! We---the Bride---will have been enjoying the wedding all during the time of Tribulation on Earth. Then, Jesus will come to set up His Millennial Kingdom, and we will ride with Him in white.