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Is sin bad b/c God says so, or does God say so b/c sin is bad?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. The first position leads to the conclusion: "Grace doesn't change me, just God's opinion of me."

    The second leads to another conclusion: "Grace is more than pardon, but also power to become a new creature in Christ Jesus by the moment by moment surrender of my will to His will."

    "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits." Isaiah 30:10

    Can anything be more smooth and deceitful than to declare that we can continue living as slaves to sin while at the same time professing to be "more than overcomers" of the same?
    Chris1 likes this.
  2. I'm not sure why the 2 positions insist on the 2 conclusions but I have heard many Christians suggest Yahweh ignores their/our sin. It's interesting because purity inside the Church is far more important than outside.
  3. Is sin bad b/c God says so, or does God say so b/c sin is bad?

    Romans 7:7New King James Version (NKJV)
    Sin’s Advantage in the Law
    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a]

    Survival of the fittest seems the law of the wild: if one is stronger, one have all the right to get what the weaker ones have...
  4. Brother Agua, we either believe that salvation means God is free to change His opinion of sin and sinners while leaving them unchanged - or - God cannot change His opinion of sin, therefore He changes us (only by the voluntary surrender of our will to His will) into the image and likeness of His obedient Son.

    I believe that by grace through faith I am a changed man who loves Jesus and has Him enthroned on my heart. When the devil ambushed me this morning with an overwhelming, almost irresistible, severely wicked temptation to visit a porn site, I remembered what sin did to my Savior and how it grieves Him even today, and claimed the promise "He is able to succor them that are tempted." Phoneman = 1 / Devil = Big fat Zero Can you guess which camp I belong to? LOL
    svdbyJesus and Major say Amen and like this.
  5. Ah ok I misunderstood position #1. It implies Yahweh changes His mind on what sin is for a Christian ?
  6. It is the old story. If the Scripture do not agree with what we want......we are wrong and must come to what God wants for us. WE must be the ones to conform to God's image!
    Phoneman777 likes this.
  7. The issue I have with your proposition....
    Is Sin bad because God says so...
    Does God say so because Sin is Bad...

    The FIRST position says that SIN is whatever is against the Will of God.

    The Second position says that SIN is based on some sort of absolute moral ground that is independent of God... That Sin is Sin - outside of God....

    Let's take an example...

    The Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil....
    You shall not eat of it - for in the day you eat of it, you shall die.

    Was eating the FRUIT itself inherently sinful independent of the Will of God....
    Was the Sin really expressing their will against the Will of God - independent of any specific attribute inherent within the fruit....

    I hate to say it - but I can't agree with you that it's #2... Why? Because Sin is Sin because you express your will against the will of God....
    svdbyJesus likes this.
  8. #8 Phoneman777, Sep 23, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
    Hello my dear brother John. I can't see how # 1 can be true. Sin is known only by the law of God (Romans 7:7). The law of God is a transcript of His character, not something arbitrarily declared and every aspect of it is a different expression of the love relationship He desires for His creatures.
    Since God could not change His own law to save His own Son's life, then sin also cannot be changed, else the actions of our first parents (desiring to be God, coveting and stealing the fruit, being spiritually adulterous by choosing the serpent's lie over God's truth, etc.) could have been changed into something other than what they were - death wages. Yes, I believe sin is bad, not because God says it is, or by some independent moral grounding, but because it is in direct opposition to the character of our loving Savior. At least that's the way I see it.
    svdbyJesus likes this.
  9. I would say both. God is perfect. He knows what laws to make.

    We must not think of laws = laws. We need to look at the actual laws (Civil, ceremonial and moral). Example: Honoring Sabbath vs stealing. How in the universes does stealing from another human affect God? The Sabbath was made a holy day to respect / thank God for helping the Jews out of Egypt.

    So the first part of your title applies to the Sabbath and the second part to something like stealing. For the second part / moral laws we could argue that simple IQ>10 is needed to discern this. Mankind is accountable for evil / sin because mankind is intelligent. Which is why God never needed to send prophets preaching His laws to people until Abraham.
  10. Amen. We are more then overcomers. Grace changes our heart. Our heart changes our mind. We should all be overcomers as we should all be ever mindful of His forgiveness to us. Eph 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
    Phoneman777 likes this.
  11. How can sin be bad if neither God say it is nor if there is some sort of moral grounds for such?

    My position is that throughout 100% of the bible - from Genesis to Revelation - the clearest identification of "A Sin" is whenever something is done against the specific direction of God.....

    For example - after the Law was given, it became A Sin to make or wear clothing made of Wool + Linen... Is this in violation to some moral point? Not that I can understand... but rather it is A Sin because God said it was a Sin for Israel... Intentionally, presumptuously breaking this seemingly inconsequential command made you a Lawbreaker - and you were subject to death... just like if you had murdered or raped... because you "Hated the Lord your God"....

  12. .
    I was referring to the Ten Commandments moral law, which is a transcript of God's character, not the statutes that governed everyday life for the Israelites such as not using materials having differing rates of wear to make a garment - although I wouldn't be surprised to find that every single command had some deep, symbolic significance, considering that we live by "every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." For instance, Moses was told to speak to the rock only the second time, not strike it. It's not hard to see that God intended to provide yet another Old Testament Messianic reference for us by showing that Jesus was to be "struck" only once, and then rise to life "forever more and have the keys of death and hell", but Moses ruined it by disobedience and his punishment was likely his being denied entrance to the promise land.
  13. Yes, which thing I don't believe He can do.
  14. Strip it down to its basic and I think you will find the answer. If God had just created us, and left us to our own demise, do you think sins would still be evil in nature?
    I believe sin is bad because God believes it to be. There are millions of people out there that question God and his teachings. There are some that do not believe in God, but they understand Sin is bad. Its really never up for debate. Even those who believe there is no sin, really do not try to teach it to others. They have distorted themselves, lied to themselves, and speaking it out loud may unravel it. They do not want to have that conversation.
    Phoneman777 likes this.

  15. It's no coincidence that the Bible describes God and His law as one in the same:
    * God—“The LORD is righteous in all His ways” (Psalm 145:17).
    * Law—“All Thy commandments are righteousness” (Psalm 119:172).

    * God—“Thou hast redeemed me, O LORD, God of truth” (Psalm 31:5).
    * Law—“Thy law is truth” (Psalm 119:142).

    * God—“Good and upright is the LORD” (Psalm 25:8).
    * Law—“The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good” (Romans 7:12).

    * God—“(Abraham) called there on the name of the Lord, the Everlasting God” (Genesis 21:33).
    * Law—“All His commandments are sure, they stand fast forever and ever" (Psalm 111:7 8).

    * God—“Be ye holy, for I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16).
    * Law—“The law is holy” (Romans 7:12).

    * God—“God is love” (1 John:4:8).
    * Law—“Love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13: 10).

    * God—“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).
    * Law—“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul” (Psalm 19:7).

    * God—“God is a Spirit” (John 4:24).
    * Law—“For we know that the law is spiritual” (Romans 7:14).

    * God— "All His ways are justice” (Deuteronomy 32:4).
    * Law—“The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good” (Romans 7:12).

    * God—“God is light and in Him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5).
    * Law—“The commandment is a lamp, and the law is light” (Proverbs 6:23).

    * Law-- "In (wisdom's) mouth is the law of kindness" (Proverbs 21:36).
    * God-- "He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35).

    1 John 3:4 says "sin is the transgression of the law". Therefore, the only way for God to change what is law breaking is to change His law, and Himself.
    agua likes this.
  16. This is sort of what I was getting at...
    Moses sinned by not doing what God said to do when He said to do it....

    The thing is... For me.... The only definition of Sin that has really stuck for me is
    Expressing your will against God's will.

    Once you define it this way - then you can understand why Murder is Wrong... but yet accept that Israel was "Right" to follow God when they were commanded to commit genocide with certain peoples - destroying every single man, woman, child, and living animal - and then to completely burn everything left....

    That 'ole "Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil" really did a job on us.. We love to draw these black and white lines of Moral Absolutes.... and when you do so - the Bible becomes pretty bewildering.....
  17. I don't believe that Situation Ethics can be found in the Bible. What we do find is God's mercy toward violators of His law (David eating Temple shewbread or Rahab lying about the spies), but that shouldn't be interpreted as Him condoning such things.

    I firmly believe that the only way we are shielded by God's grace is when we are surrendered to Him moment by moment. We step out from this protection when we pursue a course of deliberate sin. Those who condemn this as "Rollercoaster theology" forget that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all will be saved" and it is then that He multiplies His efforts to bring us back into the fold before it's too late.

    Therefore, the main gist of this thread is that grace doesn't cover sin, it converts the sinful. "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." What are your thoughts on this issue?
  18. A very difficult issue for some. But, it need not be so. God's judgment never falls upon a people until they have fully exhausted the divine patience and grace extended to them beyond reason as evidenced by Methuselah's name and age. His ability to see that any further extension of such would be of no use (a thing we cannot see) allows Him to render justice for iniquity because "just and true are Thy ways oh King of Saints". I doesn't seem to me that Israel was any more guilty of murder than a death row executioner carrying out the sentence of the condemned would be.
  19. But Christ was not crucifixied under the law. God can do anything. If He chose, He could have saved His son from dying on the cross, God chose not too do so for a reason. God could change anything and everything in a blink of an eye.
    He had a purpose, a plan. And finally, yes sin is bad because it is in direct opposition to the character of our savior, but more so because God Said so. When we sin we are breaking God's commandments! When we sin we sin against God and no one else!
  20. Grace both covers and converts don't you think ? I think we need to define what we mean by cover. When a man covers a sin it's considered hiding it but when Yahweh covers the sin it means He doesn't hold it against the man.

    Psa 32:1-2 KJV A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. (2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    What do you think ?

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