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is it about time for Western societies to have a honest conversation about mass immigration?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by 福井舞, Sep 8, 2014.

  1. I noticed here in New Zealand ( I am not sure about US, Canada, or Australia, but I suspect it will be similar) it is nearly impossible to have an honest conversation about the idea of mass immigration or multicultural society, other than singing its praises, because anyone who tries to bring up genuine concerns would risk get labelled a racist or something, this is especially evident within Body of Christ.

    For me, I always think one of the problems of allowing mass immigration is that you are bring in people who are not from a country which is rooted in Christian tradition, there would be many culture value they were raised in would not be according with the word of God.

    For example, if you were to ask Kiwis, regardless if they are Christian or not, a question such as " do you believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect, including people who are disabled or homeless?" Most of them would answer " of course"

    But I know within many Asian Cultures, it is exactly the opposite. People who suffers from disability, or are homeless, or worse still, suffers from mental health conditions, deserved to get treated as second class citizens.

    I often wonder what happens when immigrants continues to hold on to those values, how do they impose those values in their roles in their new adopted countries? for example, what happens when you have an immigrants who may hold discriminatory views against mentally ills in the role of a health professional?

    especially in New Zealand, the latest census shows 1 in 4 New Zealander were born overseas, and given our trend of immigrations, most of them would come from Non Christian cultures, so I i often wonder how will that impact on our social policies and the way this country is heading, especially when the percentages get higher?
  2. #2 autumn oddity, Sep 8, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
    "For me, I always think one of the problems of allowing mass immigration is that you are bring in people who are not from a country which is rooted in Christian tradition, there would be many culture value they were raised in would not be according with the word of God."

    ❇How else would they hear the gospel? what you're talking about is being unequally yoked, that pertains to marriage. Your body is not your own but the temple of God...
    I'm sure it pertains elsewhere, but to keep people sectioned off is no better than segregation.
    Its better to use IIT as an opportunity to minister.

    "For example, if you were to ask Kiwis, regardless if they are Christian or not, a question such as " do you believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect, including people who are disabled or homeless?" Most of them would answer " of course"

    But I know within many Asian Cultures, it is exactly the opposite. People who suffers from disability, or are homeless, or worse still, suffers from mental health conditions, deserved to get treated as second class citizens."

    ❇ Despite others crude behavior God asks us to show kindness to the cruellest of people.
    C1oudwatch3r and Where is the Messiah say Amen and like this.
  3. Every culture is / has been guilty of class discrimination.

    Unless the immigrant is a literal alien, or Muslim extremist....your fears are racist. Especially in NZ where immigrants don't need to do crime to survive like here in Africa.
  4. This is the way I look at it.. The most important point to be considered is the moral situation of the nation allowing immigrants. Are they easy to compromise in the name of tolerance? That is the question.. Because when immigrants come into a nation, certainly they are going to bring in new things.. Is the nation going to accept everything or going to stand firm on their tradition? It is not discriminate the immigrants.. For example, I am from India.. There are so many Indians in New Jersey area.. Getting permits for building a hindu temple is somewhat easier than getting permit to build a Church! That is the situation.. Is the government all out for increasing churches? Or they are lukewarm saying we will support all religions.. I am not saying put a ban on coming up with temples.. I am saying, have a heart to preach gospel to those hindus and still give them the freedom to practice their religion.. It is so easier said than done..
  5. my fears are not racist whatever.

    maybe I did not explain myself well, or maybe you did not read my post carefully.

    the problem here is NOT with someone's skin colour, or someone race, or even someone's culture values.

    it is culture values that are not in accordance with scripture that is the problem.

    and since I am an Asian from a Far Eastern culture who spent my formative years back home, and has spent a large numbers of years in New Zealand, I do know what I am talking about.

    do I think all Asians are discriminatory? no

    do I think all Kiwis are non discriminatory? no

    but the reality is culture conditioning is a big influences on the values we hold.

    so yes, Asians, are more likely to hold discriminatory views, and those views will carry over to their roles within our society and how they use their voting power to influence our social policies.

    and yes, I have seen examples for myself.
  6. I don't know

    you are talking about something different I think

    or course immigrants bring something new to the country, and there is nothing is wrong with that. I am all for tolerance, after all, I am an Asian immigrants myself.

    it is when immigrants may bring in values that may impact on the most vulnerable within our society that I find concerning.

    so it is not just about spread non Christian religions that concerns me, it is also how those values impact the nation as a whole.
  7. I am not talking about keeping anyone sections off.

    I am talking about New Zealand should reconsider the impact of letting large numbers of immigrants coming into the country without consider it's consequences.

    there is nothing wrong with restrict immigrations.

    the whole point of immigration, as I understood it, is to bring in people who will contribute the society in positive way.
  8. Let me explain myself better too.

    If the immigrant needs to do crime to survive (n) You have an argument.
    If the immigrant is loyal to a mad belief that puts innocent people in danger (n) You have an argument.

    All other forms of mass immigration must be see by a Christian as God bringing the unsaved to us for simpler missionary work.

    Any opposition to mass immigration that will support the economy and not put anyone in danger.... is plain and simply racism / thinking you are better. How is it not?
  9. I can actually answer that question for you.

    I work as a disability support worker (mental health) in Australia. The person I support presents extremely challenging behaviours.

    Let's use our experiences in shopping centres to illustrate. If I take him to a more upscale shopping centre in a largely Australian-dominant area, here's how our day goes: People stare at him, trying to figure out what his deal is. People quietly usher their kids away from his direction. There's a noticeable gap around where he sits in the food court. Store clerks indicate to security guards to keep an eye on us. Groups of teenagers make insulting remarks to him, and all laugh. One day an angry woman once had a go at me at a public park, because how dare I bring "someone like that to our park." He picks up on all these things, and they effect him deeply. I don't take him around to places like that any more.

    However, there is a shopping centre I like to take him to. It's in a low socio-economic area with a largely Asian immigrant population. Here's how a day there goes: People don't notice him, because he doesn't stand out. It's pretty common for people with extreme disabilities to live in government housing in low socio-economic areas, so people around there are used to it. He blends in, fits it, and feels at home. He knows people's names, because they bother to get to know him. The security guards like him, and make an effort to have a conversation with him. I'm not saying it happens every day, but sometimes shop owners give him free food, because they genuinely like him.

    So obviously he gets more respect at the second place. But what happened to the detrimental values the immigrants were supposed to be "bringing over" with them? Well, either they didn't really have them to begin with, or they adapted. In an area where one is accustomed to a very wide variety of diversity, it's pretty easy to have experiences that challenge one's prejudices. I think you'd be surprised at just how quickly a person can adapt, and change their values, even life-long, deeply-held values, under the right conditions (and in this case, the "right conditions" are as much cultural diversity as possible).

    Not to make too long of a post, but this was an important story for me. I once worked as a supervisor at a boarding school where there was a group of Australian neo-nazi high school students. One of the other supervisors was from Fiji, and in no small part though his influence, almost all of them were able to move past those prejudices. Without experiences with people outside of our own cultural background, we may be tempted to adopt a sense of cultural superiority about ourselves. When we are uni-cultural, we may not even be aware of the values we hold ourselves that need to be challenged. Immigration brings us the benefit of having experiences that challenge us to do better. I think you can set your mind at ease about this.
    KingJ likes this.
  10. I don't see how there's a better way of thinking about it.

    Jesus told his disciples to go to all the nations. If all the nations are coming to us... can't complain about half your job being done for you.
    KingJ likes this.
  11. well, you answer is certainly very interesting.

    As someone who is an Asian himself, and know the culture pretty well, and lived in New Zealand for a long time

    my observation and experience has been very different.

    Since I have not been to Australia ,I guess I will take your word for it

    but I stand by what I have said.

    I don't think Jesus is for political correctness.

    neither am I.
  12. Yes, we are mean to bring Gospel to people

    we can even invite them to our house

    providing they are not bullies who will beat up our own children.
  13. Well, the individual experiences we share are anecdotal, of course. But the diversity of experiences among us all on this international forum gives us the chance to consider alternatives to our own perceptions, which is also one of the favorable outcomes of immigration.

    I think NZ is pretty forward-thinking about disability. You probably notice such a huge cultural gap primarily because NZ is a very exceptional place in terms of its attitudes and policy about disability, even compared to other western nations. Most of my colleagues are actually from NZ, and they have immigrated to Aus because the cost of living for them was too high in NZ. I've very much appreciated working with them, and I've learned a lot from them. A lot of the Aussies we encounter in our daily activities, though could probably happily accuse us of "political correctness" because of our attitudes toward people with disabilities... just something to consider.

    I will give you this, though: I'm sure the first nations peoples of all the places I've lived in (Canada, Mexico, Ireland, Australia) would probably side with you about the long-term negative impacts of mass immigration:)
  14. well, you probably have a point. :)

    I have not lived in other western nations, so I cant speak for them

    Beside New Zealand, I have lived for a long time in Asia, I was born and raised there.

    so I do have a good knowledge on what Asian culture is like.

    For example, I have witness with my own eyes how Indian health professionals here in New Zealand treated their patients who may suffers from disability. I mean there are obviously caring Indian health professionals, but I can clearly see their cultural attitude is affecting how they treat their patient. Bottom line, if they are not willing to adopt Godly attitude, then they should go home, then they can do whatever they like.

    like I have mentioned, immigration has ALWAYS been intended as a privilege, not a right, though many immigrants seem to see it such now days, and anyone who disagree with them would immediately get labelled as a racist, and it is about time they learn some manners.

    I have heard of the white Australian policy however.

    That is not where I am coming from however.
  15. Ahhh, pancakes! I like what you say about treating cruel people with kindness. I am dealing with someone like that right now, and find myself trying very hard to "stay sweet"! Praise God, though that He has brought me to deeper understanding of His principle of love. In the long run, I think it is actually to MY benefit to treat cruel people with kindness. When we change ourselves, people around us cannot help but get themselves changed as well...and I think this would apply to immigrants as well.

    Immigrants may choose to come to our country because they believe they will have a better life. Often, having not been raised with freedom principles, they do not know HOW to live with freedom, and will continue to cling to old, familiar standards no matter how oppressive they are. It is up to us to show the value of adopting new ways of thinking and practice. We cannot do this with an attitude of anger...only with patience and love.
    They will not believe in our freedom if we use oppressive methods to get them to change.

    And just maybe...God called them to our country to hear and receive the Gospel...just like you said.
  16. I don't see any nation as being Christian or having Christian values, if I'm completely honest. I've never been anywhere outside of the United States, but the Christian people here are generally not actual Christians, and the country itself isn't Christian either. Because of that, I don't think that immigration would corrupt the nation.
  17. firstly, I never said anything about treating immigrants with cruelty.

    I am simply saying if by allowing them in, they are going to mistreat others, especially those who are most vulnerable within our society, then we should not let them into the country in the first place.

    secondly, please don't distort God message.

    tolerating evil is not love

    being silent and choose not to intervene when you see evil being done to others makes one accomplice to the evil being done.

    God Himself does not take mistreatment of those who are most vulnerable lightly.

    Isaiah 10 1-3

    Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they may make the fatherless their prey! What will you do on the day of punishment, in the ruin that will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help, and where will you leave your wealth?

    if I have to pick a side, between able bodied immigrants who look those who are disabled like second class citizens vs people who did not choose to be disabled in the first place, who are struggling everyday, whose disability makes them vulnerable to bullying, and cant stand up for themselves, and who did not do anything to deserve get mistreated for simply being disabled.

    I know which I would be on, and I make no apology about it.

    if I get labelled a hateful, or even a "jerk" by others, then I take it as badge of honour :cool:

    well, you certainly have a very interesting take on this whole issue

    but like I have said, I myself IS an immigrant, I know both culture pretty well, so I would like to think I know what I am talking about

    I have not problem against immigrants coming to New Zealand seeking a better life

    but I do have problem against immigrants coming to New Zealand seeking a better life who also have dubious characters

    host countries like New Zealand is not one giant experiment to let dubious character come in and see how long it takes to change them.

    and certainly it should not be done at the expenses of those who are most vulnerable our society.

    maybe you are an immigrants yourself too?
  18. I have already explained my position.

    if your argument is that unless they do something to kill someone , they should be allowed in at the expense of those who are most vulnerable in the society, then that is not biblical at all.

    support economy, where did you get that from, given the global economy downturn, if one were to look from economic perspective alone, most Western nations should stop immigration immediately, especially given high unemployment rate.

    of my position make me racist in your eyes, then thank you, I take that as a total compliment.

    because as a Christian , I only care about what He thinks.
  19. Is it possible that immigration per se poses no threat to the immigrant or the citizen “if” societal ethics are supported in the confines of the law? For all over the world immigration is problematic not because new people come in, but because of the Socialism that shreds Natural Law. Though natural law began is scripture, Natural Law Theory was primarily started by Aristotle, then categorized and further defined by St Thomas Aquinas, and then made ethically applicable in a social compact by John Locke. Though the U.S. was never pure, it did produce a bill of rights that was predicated largely upon Natural Law. However the ethics that are in the bill of rights is being trampled to death as massive walls of intervention now tower above it on all sides.

    For God gave “every person” from the foundations of the world a certain set of inalienable rights and if these rights are established as foundational using Natural Law then being reflected in the Rule of Law, then immigration would not impact a country like we see it today. Though changes would occur the changes would not alter the sovereignty of any person or group regarding how they would worship, how one would makes money, or how one would seek healthcare. Natural Law serves to protect all natural rights.

    Yet evil Socialism removes Natural Rights and will faithfully arm a few elites in power to immorally legislate only one kind of morality, one kind of fairness and one kind of safety either favoring the citizen or the immigrant, then causing one side to be inflamed with anger. Then upon the spewing anger a new set of elites will later band-aid the existing perverted law with more perverted law, then causing a monumental mess as the whole country ends up frustrated and angry. Yet the elites miraculously and serendipitously end up rich amidst each perverted rescue, then offering more legal plunder to another group.

    Can we agree that its highly understandable why the U.S. created over forty thousand new laws “just last year alone?”

    Immigration improves an economy when Socialism is void, yet it will crush an economy when it is present. Immigration will cause cultural diversity when Socialism is void and will cause compulsory-multiculturalism when its present. Immigration will cause health-care prices and insurance to go down when Socialism is void, yet it will cause health-care and insurance prices to soar to unattainable prices when its present. Yet each is an ebb-and-flow process that takes a generation of perverted legislation to do its deadly work, and its the children of the voters that pay the highest price.
  20. it is true that ethics should be upheld by the laws.

    the problem is in a democracy, we all can influence legislations and laws through our votes, and it becomes a huge problem when the percentage of immigrants with unchristian like values increases.

    right now in New Zealand, 1 in 4 people are born overseas, it will only get worse.

    also rules and regulations don't always ensure professional behaviours.

    as someone who has done some nursing training, I can assure you if a health professional want to f you up, there are 1001 ways they could do it, and there are absolutely nothing you can do about it.

    I have seen it with my own eyes.

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