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Is It A Sin To Not Believe In The Trinity Or That Jesus Is God?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Lifeasweknowit, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. Piggybacking off another thread about one who recently left Mormonism, I too have dealt with issues regarding my conversion from a JW to a nondenominational Christian. One primarily being the belief that Jesus is God. I know that many Christians believe this and that many also have a different opinion.

    I will get a lot of scriptures about how Jesus said "I and the father are one" and others which I am very familiar with. This still, however, does not explain why God said he "sent his only begotten son" to save us and why Jesus was questioning his father shortly before being crusified. Why would he have a discussion with himself? You can't deny that these scruiptures contradict themselves, as well as many concerning this issue.

    One thing for sure is that Jesus is our savior, but I don't think that a single person can say for a fact that Jesus is God, or even that he is just the son of God. There is nothing in the bible that directly points to either...it's up for interpretation.

    However, my question is: Do you believe that it is a sin to believe either or if you believe Jesus is your savior?
  2. http://www.christianforums.com/users/232664/ this is another place that I have posted many of my views on Trinity. More than once, I have been reprimanded. I just now went back there.

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7705846-3/#post61921639 this was my last post and dealt with Trinity. You may find it interesting and could be along side towards your questioning. Please ask me anything directly that you want. I doubt that I would want to say much here about Trinity, as to not step-on toes.

    It isn't the traditions that come with the core faith (added in by whomever for whatever) that we have in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that helps to make us followers of him, but it is obedience to his teachings and commands. You have asked a question sitting on top of a powder keg. There is a lot of freedom and peace when you get your answer from God himself.

    I hope that I don't start anything here.

    PS: I don't recommend using christianforums.com . Sometimes, it is not very polite over there. I guess that I wasn't my best either. I am trying to be with churches and forums that are very polite and are filled with members who are truly seeking God. Apparently, I wasn't banned or reprimanded for my last post there made in December last year. I wanted to reach some of the world in that forum for it included a vast array of peoples (Christians of all sorts and others).

    However, my question is: Do you believe that it is a sin to believe either or if you believe Jesus is your savior?
    So to answer your question here and now, so you don't have to go through my posts in the other forum:

    Sticking to the Gospel's core belief above all is believing that Jesus is your savoir. The enhancements (traditions or add-ons or etc.) through the centuries are not of the core belief. They are not even part of Faith. They are of man's feeble attempt to explain some of the mysteries of God (His wonders).

    Here on another forum that I seem to like is a good response about Trinity. http://jesuschristians.com/churches/116-father-and-son . It is best to just give it to you since you may have to join to see:
    This is the copy/paste of that page:
    Father and Son
    Friday, 07 January 1994 12:16

    Orthodox teaching on the Trinity is at best boring, and at worst an excuse for bigotry. It is difficult to believe that God is going to stop us at the gates of heaven, ask if we believe in a word that isn't even in the Bible (Trinity), and consign us to eternity in hell if we cannot grasp God being three people and one person at the same time.

    In reality, the doctrine grew from attempts to reconcile paradoxical statements from Jesus, i.e. that he and God the Father are one and that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father (John 10:30 ,John 14:7-11 ), at the same time that he said that the Father is greater than the Son (John 14:28 ) and that he can do nothing without the Father's assistance (John 5:19 , and John 5:30 ).

    Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadel-phians and a few other sects would make you an infidel if you regarded Jesus as divine, or addressed your prayers to him. The rest of Christendom would call you heretics if you suggested that anyone could know God without knowing that his first name is Jesus.

    We don't want to take sides in this silly debate. With or without a Trinitarian doctrine, God is incomprehensible. But it seems that both sides have missed the real point.

    The passages from John's Gospel, referred to on the previous page, suggest that anyone who responds to Jesus is responding to God (even if they regard themselves as atheists) and anyone who sincerely seeks to serve God is actually a Christian (whether or not they've ever heard of Jesus). If you have one, you get the other for free... two for one!

    This simple interpretation exposes the religious small-mindedness that is being demonstrated on both sides of the Trinity issue.

    If God and Jesus are interchangeable, then we could accept sincere Hindus as fellow Christians on the basis of their faith in God as they know him (and on the basis of the saving grace of Christ, which makes up for any errors in their theology).

    If we could believe that anyone who receives Jesus has received God (Matthew 10:40 ), we could accept all who subscribe to the teachings of Jesus the Man or Jesus the Prophet (Muslims, atheists, etc.) as fellow Christians too... on the ground that, having accepted Jesus they have (unknowingly) accepted God.

    The life and teachings of Jesus, especially his relationship with and support for sincere Samaritans (theological heretics of the day) indicates that this is precisely what he meant when he said things like "anyone who receives me receives him that sent me" (John 13:20 ) and "If God is your father, then you will love me." (John 8:42 )

    And if that's what Jesus taught, then that's what we want to teach as well.

    (See also In Search of Truth.)

    Click here and take the quiz for this article to earn extra points!

    Lifeasweknowit likes this.
  3. I don't claim to understand the 'Trinity':
    1 John 5:7 (the 'Word' being Jesus Christ REF: John 1)

    But to answer your question, it would seem to me to deny one of the three would be to deny God Himself: Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29

    I would say it would be a sin.
  4. Spk 1, I can see why you were banned.

    In a nutshell you are saying all roads lead to Rome :eek:.
  5. LOL. Please elaborate King, as you know, I am not incredibly familiar with biblical prophesy.o_O
  6. There are two disntinctive ways of looking at this from my experience.

    1. I am a father to my child a husband to my wife and a child to my father. God interacted with us as Jesus.
    2. My mother and father are two individuals and yet one spiritually in marriage

    I tend to agree with 2 more. I believe God gave us the family model to better understand spiritual truths. God our Father and Jesus our groom.

    The only important thing imo is to identify who you can praise and who you can't. It is fine to praise God and Jesus but not the Holy Spirit. Why? From scripture we know God and Jesus, but not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has not come to reveal Himself, but Jesus to us.
  7. Life, the devil wants to undermine the cross and Jesus. This is done by referring to Him as just a prophet or saying that we are all ''Godly'' / '' God-fearing'' surely there are many who are saved without knowing it. This is not true. If anyone was truly God fearing the Holy Spirit would reveal Jesus to them. In the day and age we are living in there is NO debate on this. We are living in the dispensation with the presence of the Holy Spirit. He is here to reveal Jesus to us. If you want God to reveal Himself to you, you will find Jesus. If God sees you are seeking for the truth you will find Jesus. When anyone confuses this they are helping the devil blur the truth. All roads do not lead to God. Only ONE road leads to God, namely Jesus and recognising Him as Peter did in Matt 16:13-20.

    In the attached below, the red is mocking / not doing proper justice for those who believe my example of 2. The green is making a terrible insinuation that accepting Jesus as a prophet is the same as accepting Him as diety (the Son of God). Then the conlcusion in orange is ''not precisely what He meant''. Perhaps Spk 1 forgot to post more context on the copy and pasted post and I am reading out of context? (in which case I may owe an apology..? or not for pasting a post from somoene else without fully reading o_O ).

    Lifeasweknowit likes this.
  8. No matter how sincerely one follows a path, believing it to be the right one, if he has chosen the wrong path, he will not get to his destination. If you want to get to my place, you can start anywhere in the world, but if you want to arrive at my place and enjoy my hospitality (such as it is :D), you have to come from where you are to the United States. Then, you have to find your way to my state, then my city, then my street, then my house. Where I live, there is a State Street, State Avenue, and State Way, all in the same area. If you get on either State Street or State Avenue, you still haven't gotten to my place. You have to get off of State Street or Avenue and get on State Way. If you don't come to God through Jesus Christ, you will never arrive at God's "place."

    Do you have to understand the exact mechanism by which Three are One? Probably not, as very intelligent people have been trying for centuries to nail down exactly how that works. But if your understanding of God diverges significantly from the Biblical God, you are following a false God. If your conception of Jesus is that He is less than divine, I would say you are following an image you call Jesus that is unable to save. After all, the Samaritans, Jews, and Gentiles of the day were saved not by the sincerity of the faith they were following at the time, but by coming to know Jesus Christ and believing in Him.

    On a related note, I don't believe that God manifests Himself as a Hindu deity, or as the Islamic conception of Allah, or the end result of countless reincarnations, to name a few examples. To sincerely follow them, in my opinion, is to follow a false God to eternal destruction.

    So, to keep on topic, what do I have to believe regarding the Trinity? Well, I believe Jesus and God are One, like Jesus said. The Son obeys and honors the Father and the Father exalts the Son. Are they two manifestations of the same Essence? Two versions of the same Person? Two roles and functions of One Person? Two Persons of One Entity? Are they like water/ice/steam? Are they like an egg (shell, white, yolk)? I don't think any of those descriptions exactly nails down what really is beyond our comprehension. I simply believe that they are One. They appear to have distinct roles, yet they all work toward the same ends. I do rather like the idea of a father to my daughter, husband to my wife, and son to my parents. I am one person, but in each relationship, I take on a different role. I am not my wife's son, but I am the same person who is a son to my parents. I certainly behave quite differently in each relationship, but I am still the same individual - not divided into three separate standalone individuals. I also talk to myself :D. But I am not satisfied with that description, either, because it isn't comprehensive, I think there is more depth and greater mystery to the way in which the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct, but One.

    You don't have to be able to explain the Trinity to be saved, but you have to be careful that you are following True God, if you will, and not your own vain imaginings.
    Lifeasweknowit, Major and Rusty says Amen and like this.
  9. That is a very long and drawn out responce to say that you believe in "Universalism"/Sincerity.

    Since the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal one MUST believe in the Trinty to be saved.
    How could you reject one and not reject the other?????
  10. Just a thought, if you dont believe Jesus is God, then your missing the entire point of christianity-its 100% based on Jesus being our Lord and saviour-without Christ being God, then the Bible is lying, and we have no faith. Just going to throw that out there.
  11. The problem begins when people do not have a good understanding of Trinitarian doctrine.
    Our God, is Three Persons but One Being. So, you have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit who together are all God and individually are Persons of the God. When Jesus was on Earth, He set aside his godhood and lived as a man. So, at Gethsemane, Jesus wasn't "talking to himself", God the Son was talking to God the Father.
    When Jesus was here he really did live as a man and everything He did was to set an example for how a person was to live, including being dependent on God the Father for most things.
    Rusty and Major say Amen and like this.
  12. Thank you for being kind and not harsh. I seem to be much alone in accepting God as himself and the idea that he is able to converse openly and does with his beloved son Jesus. Two individuals that carry on a conversation. Did not Jesus pray to God quite often! I believe in his prayer, his father was speaking back to him; like when Jesus stood over the grave of Lazarus.

    I have an abundance of faith, but little ability to accept what I conceive as nonsense. I can believe and see scripture as true, especially the New Testament, without tearing it apart or throwing characters away, because my mind stumbles over what seems as inconsistencies in what was written. I can see that the Father is an individual and his son is also, yet they love each other, and by that, they are one in heart and spirit as well. I don't need the workings of a formula of sorts to understand the oneness through loving each other. It may be, that when we are in heaven, that we could dwell as one also, but we remain individuals. Perfect love isn't a concept that should be played with or figured out, especially through some feebled attempt of high-jacking our faith with foreign materials. I do not believe that we should add to God's word or even seemingly trump it with our mental exercises such as in the theology of Trinity.

    You know it is hard to stand here alone before others who don't seem to comprehend the problems with interfering with God's word with something outside of just faith to accept the awesomeness of Him. It is quite uncomfortable to bother others about Trinity and some other things. It would seem that I am causing trouble and could hurt some weak Christians' faith in Christ. Yet, I am not really worried, for their faith isn't even in Christ, if it can even be called faith, because it is in their ability with their minds and logic to try to make God's word consistent (Trinity theology). Why is it that I don't have to make any changes and I am not bothered by what others call inconsistencies of God's word?

    By Jesus being an individual in the flesh like us, then this lowly existence (being understood by all people around him) allows us to see our own pathways in following him, a simple human being to the Father (salvation is very possible.) It is extremely important to see that Jesus was 100% in the flesh as a mere human being like us. He had great faith and knowledge, so could guide us with our little faith yet accepting him. If Jesus was of the Trinity, then would he not be God, all powerful in the flesh, glorifying flesh. This would not be like us and could never be. Where would our hope and faith be, if we could not follow him being that he was all powerful and our little faith would be invisible indeed? I have no problem seeing Jesus in the flesh as we are, same type of body and our weaknesses. I would also think that he was married at his age. None of this takes away anything, but only glorifies the Father more and also the son. The New Testament sternly warns on more than one occasion that the spirit of the Anti-Christ does not want us to believe that Christ came in the flesh and so preaches this.

    I am thankful that people have been civil here and accepted a forum in discussions on this. For me to open up about Trinity and to speak against it, bothers me, yet I get courage, peace & purpose in doing so. The coward in me wants to erase all that I wrote against Trinity and even fear it, but the courage in me wants to stand for the way that I believed before examining Trinity years ago, when I had decided to see if I could accept it or if I truly believed in it. I am trying to stand my ground. This morning, it seemed easy to just back down and delete my entries for I don't want to harm the faith of others. I may not realize the damage that I could inflict on other people. So, what do I do. I don't value cowardness or superstitiousness. I value standing for what you believe and see in life.

    I see a world of trouble with the Trinity insertion, an accepted tradition of man. I see it as having manipulated itself into our faith over the centuries through the spirit of the Anti-Christ. I see warnings written about this attempt coming from the Anti-Christ in the New Testament (Peter wrote about this). We are all seemingly innocent in these forces working against the Word, but I am the one who started to ask God and still do. Here is one of the manipulations for inserting the Trinity theology (there are better sources to find it than here): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum Ever wondered why Trinity is so important to not believe in it, besides the warnings in the NT about this will of the Anti-Christ? Could it be that a wall is erected in persons who believe in it for they are joining in with this Spirit's intentions (keeping us from the Father)? We worship God and believe in his son and follow him. If I ever met Jesus in the person, I believe that either I would worship him or be friends with him, or could it be both, I don't know, but here and now, I don't add or seek to alter the Gospel of Jesus for my true fear of God. How many people truly fear God and will not distort their faith with this thing? You can see why Trinity supporters give a name like heretic towards those who oppose their power grab (another play through the Anti-Christ's attempts into our faith, especially with Trinity). Those for abortion will call the baby a fetus (piece of flesh of the woman), but those for the baby will call it by its real name, baby. Because I ask people to truly fear God and not man or superstition or even his lack of comprehending the greatness of God, then I am a heretic for not believing by fear or intimidation in something blatently added next to our faith in Christ. Pollution is what it is. I'll keep the pure Word of God.

    There was no such thing as Trinity in the days of Paul & Peter. They had to not worry about members weakness of faith to try and compose such new traditions, but instead of actual attacks on the church through persecutions, immorality and false doctrines.

    For those of you, who believe in Trinity, I am going to suspect checked it out in detail as I and came up with your own conclusions. I don't want to hurt you or your faith. I just don't see the need of having to believe in anything other than our Lord Jesus Christ and obey our Father in Heaven who said to listen to his beloved son and obey him. I spent hundreds of hours and almost a year research things like Trinity before coming to my conclusions. It was a scary time to step-outside of this theology, but God wants us to be children of light (children of truth).
    Lifeasweknowit likes this.
  13. Jesus was 100% human, but He was also 100% God. Otherwise, he could not be the perfect sacrifice. To be the perfect sacrifice He would have to be perfect-no mere human, can obtain perfection. So he had to be 100% human, but 100% God as well. This isnt about the trinity, its about who Jesus was, He was the son of God, and was in Himself perfect, and was God. Jesus Himself said this much, matt 4:7 and Luke 4:12, Jesus tells satan "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself. Matt 5:21-22 Jesus puts Himself on equal with God when He says "you heard it said...but I say to you

    Matt 9:2, mark 2:5, luke 5:20 and 7:48 Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

    In mark 14:60-62 Jesus is asked if He is the Christ, the son of the blessed one, and Jesus replied I am.
    60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? [a]What is it that these men are testifying against You?” 61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and [b]saying to Him, “Are You [c]the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

    I can continue on. my point is, Jesus is indeed deity. To say otherwise, is to call Jesus and God, liars, it is not what the Bible teaches. You say you can look past the "inconsistences" I propose to you, there are no such inconcistencies, just passages that we dont understand. But the Bible is clear-Jesus is both man, and God, all wrapped into one.
  14. I go by what the Bible says. Despite your claims the apostles were fully aware of the Trinity and Holy Spirit. Jesus even told them about Holy Spirit. John 14: 15 -31 This is from the King James as well.

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
    30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
    31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
  15. I've been studying the incarnation for some time now and what you say jives with some "very boring" (NOT!) books I own.
  16. No sweat. You can not hurt my faith no matter what you preach. My faith comes from, and by the Grace of God.
    That would be from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit...that is, from the full wisdom and power and gracious love bestowed on me through the fullness of the Godhead.
    I think we here are all mature enough to evaluate christianforums.com for our selves, but thanks for the glowing 'heads up' you gave us.
    As for myself, 'oneness theology' or any of several daughters of it, has never been a serious consideration.
  17. Well as for Jesus talking to God, hence himself, don't even we talk to ourselves?:)
    But mostly I believe that when Jesus is heard Praying to God the Father, it was for our benefit, else it would not have been recorded.
    As for Jesus being God, looking at the JW book of words (which I do not endorse.) in Joel 2:32. we read -"And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling."
    and from the same book of words, Acts 4:8,9,10,11,12.
    Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them:
    “Rulers of the people and older men,9if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well,10let it be known to all of ​YOU​ and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz‧a‧rene′, whom ​YOU​ impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of ​YOU.11This is ‘the stone that was treated by ​YOU​ builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’12Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
    So, if on the one hand calling on the name of Jehovah will be saved, and there is no other name given than Jesus Christ, the name of Jehovah is Jesus Christ.....according to the JW book of words.
    The Bible has the same teaching.

    So, yes, Jesus is God and that from scripture that you did not allude to as well as from the Jw's own book of words:)
    As for other things you asked....what exactly were you asking?
    Well it is a sin to claim to be a Christian when one is not.. So what is a Christian?
    Is he/she not a follower of Christ Jesus? What sort of persons are incorporated into the Church of Jesus Christ?
    Read Matt 16:15,16,17,18.
    So if one does not believe what Peter said, they are not going to be a part of the Church that Jesus will/is building....yes?
  18. I am the type of person that, by default, is very unbiased and often sees both sides. This does not help me with my faith...

    Moving forward, if God created Jesus after Him, how can Jesus be equal to him? I understand you are saying Jesus is a part of him, I completely agree with that, but that still does not make him, Him. if Jesus is God and equal then why does it not say that directly in the Bible? By directly I mean, why does Jesus not say, "I am God."?

    Jesus is most certainly a deity and higher than mankind, and I certainly do not believe he is just a prophet like some other denominations may believe.

    Some of you are saying that it is antichrist to believe Jesus is not God...That does not make any sense to me, so please explain. If I accept Christ, believe he rose from the dead, believe he died for my sins and is my savior, how is that antichrist simply if one does not believe he is the ultimate God?

    I may be misinterpreting a lot of this. Also, please excuse the fact that I don't have as much biblical knowledge as many of you, but I did attend church several times a week as well as bible study twice a week so I have some understnading of it.

    Lastly, do people pray to Jesus? Why do pastors not pray to Jesus if he is God?

    I am trying to make sense of all of this so I can know the right thing. Thank you Rumely for your input. I think it is wise to say that unless the Bible clearly states that Jesus is God for that there is a trinity, God cannot hold it against us if we don't understand it or accept it. The main basis of the Bible being that Jesus died for our sins and is our savior, in many ways, is all that matters.
  19. In my opinion: you can drive yourself insane over 'Trinity Doctrine'. My Bible says the "three" are "one".

    Can't say that it makes sense in my human brain-God said it-good enough for me...

    ( I am sure in 'that day' we won't care either-just be happy to be with Him! :D)
    Lifeasweknowit likes this.
  20. That is a JW inspired argument. The Jews understood Jesus to say that He is God..."before Abraham was..I am" The trouble is that we can not expect Jesus to run what He says by us for approval first.
    I am picking up a lot of JW error here.... Jesus is not a deity.
    Their is only one Deity and the name given to us is Jesus.
    It is not necessarily anti Christ...at least I don't tend to use that branding, however if He is not the ultimate God and there is only one God,...who is He?
    He is not a created (brother of Satan) as Mrs Smith's little boy Joseph imagined. So who else could He be?
    We are taught by Jesus to ask in His name.

    I am trying to make sense of all of this so I can know the right thing. Thank you Rumely for your input. I think it is wise to say that unless the Bible clearly states that Jesus is God for that there is a trinity, God cannot hold it against us if we don't understand it or accept it. The main basis of the Bible being that Jesus died for our sins and is our savior, inn many ways, is all that matters.[/quote]
  21. All the brainwashing really did a number on me. I appreciate you all being kind in your responses and understanding of my questions and confusion.

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