Is God All-Powerful?

[Relentless]

I will not believe in a God so-called who does not have everything under his power and control. When evil happens I need not despair because The Lord has everything under his hand and is working all things for his glory and our good. Can you say the same when evil happens? Or do you despair because yet another free-will creature has chosen to act outside his plan?

I believe fully in the sovereignty of God.
I believe fully in the omnipotence of God.

What I reject fully is the idea that God's power and sovereignty cannot endure the slightest challenge from the will of man.
What I reject fully is the idea that God must cause sin in order to bring about His will.
What I reject fully is the idea that God would hold us accountable for something He himself ordained.

Calvinism's deterministic teachings fly in the face of scriptural commands to choose good over evil, even in times before the Holy Spirit was given to all believers. These teachings turn God into a liar by saying He would tell us to do things he ordained that we cannot do.

 

[Relentless]

God makes no such statement, he gave a command, nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly. And God did not lie to Cain, or mislead him into thinking he actually could choose to not let sin have him.

God made no such statement as "You cannot choose to accept Jesus unless I change your nature". Calvinism reads heavily into the scriptures.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

I believe fully in the sovereignty of God.
I believe fully in the omnipotence of God.

What I reject fully is the idea that God's power and sovereignty cannot endure the slightest challenge from the will of man.
What I reject fully is the idea that God must cause sin in order to bring about His will.
What I reject fully is the idea that God would hold us accountable for something He himself ordained.

Calvinism's deterministic teachings fly in the fact of scriptural commands to choose good over evil, even in times before the Holy Spirit was given to all believers. These teachings turn God into a liar by saying He would tell us to do things he ordained that we cannot do.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

 

[Relentless]

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

I've read the entire Bible more than once. So have many others who reject the Calvinistic interpretation of scripture.

Given the fact that Calvinistic belief has no bearing whatsoever on how people live, or what gospel message they preach (since they say they don't know who God has ordained to salvation), of what benefit is it? I've also seen many atheists cite the Calvinistic understanding of God as the reason they could never accept Jesus. If God causes our sin but blames us for it anyway, they all say, then God must be evil and hypocritical. That's what they say. And that's a definite problem being caused by Calvinism. So I see disadvantages but no advantages. My rejection of Calvinism has not made me a worse sinner, not caused me to disrespect God, and not led me to believe I saved myself. It is utterly pointless.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

You know that Bible you read? I believe God planned everything that happened in it before any of it happened. You can't argue he did because much of it is filled with sin, which he apparently cannot plan, except the worst one of all, the cross. How much sense does that make? How can God plan the worst thing to ever happen?

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

I've read the entire Bible more than once. So have many others who reject the Calvinistic interpretation of scripture.

Given the fact that Calvinistic belief has no bearing whatsoever on how people live, or what gospel message they preach (since they say they don't know who God has ordained to salvation), of what benefit is it? I've also seen many atheists cite the Calvinistic understanding of God as the reason they could never accept Jesus. If God causes our sin but blames us for it anyway, they all say, then God must be evil and hypocritical. That's what they say. And that's a definite problem being caused by Calvinism. So I see disadvantages but no advantages. My rejection of Calvinism has not made me a worse sinner, not caused me to disrespect God, and not led me to believe I saved myself. It is utterly pointless.

Why should Children of God care what natural men say? You agree with them?

 

[Relentless]

You know that Bible you read? I believe God planned everything that happened in it before any of it happened. You can't argue he did because much of it is filled with sin, which he apparently cannot plan, except the worst one of all, the cross. How much sense does that make? How can God plan the worst thing to ever happen?

Calvinism makes no sense at all. It tries to say that God causes sin but isn't responsible for it. It tries to say that God cannot know the future without causing it. It tries to say that no one can do anything good from any good motive, in spite of the fact that many people in scripture are show doing exactly that. How much sense does that make? None whatsoever.

Yes, I know that Bible I read. I also know what Calvinism teaches and I reject its interpretations of scripture.

 

[Relentless]

Why should Children of God care what natural men say? You agree with them?

You know that Psalm where it says, "What is man, that you are mindful of him"? Or how about the one where God says, "Come, let us reason together"? I could list many more that show God does indeed care what we say. I agree with God. I disagree with Calvinism.

 

[Ravindran]

We can't unscrew the unscrewable!!

Arminianism vs Calvinism is a never ending topic.. I used to debate about it quite aggressively sometime back. Until I realized my wisdom is not good enough to grasp the fullness of this concept. While God is inviting us to learn more about Him, our mind is like mustard seed and cannot grasp such deep concepts. I am reminded of something that transpired between me and my daughter. She is 3 years old now. I was telling her once that she is growing up fast and I can lift her up only for some more years. Then she would turn out into a beautiful girl and I would no longer have this privilege. Her reply brought smiles to me. She thinks while she is growing up, I will grow smaller. When she becomes big like me, I will become small like her. Then she will carry me around instead of me carrying her Did I get upset that my daughter had such a misunderstanding? Of course no! I loved her even more.

Arminians and Calvinists might be getting something totally wrong. A toddler cannot correct another toddler! But our heavenly Father is loving us irrespective of what we believe in. Let's not spend too much energy in trying to prove something. Sorry if my response was not inline with the thread.

 

[Relentless]

Totally agree, Ravindran. As I mentioned earlier, belief or disbelief in Predestination is irrelevant to how we live as Christians. However, we also know that if someone might not be familiar with the generations of debates on the topic, they may need to become familiar with it. When people study the scriptures they naturally have questions, and it is always good to give responses. The problem comes when people make it a primary issue of the faith.

 

[Siloam]

Is God all-powerful? It would be good here to describe what you mean and then we can agree or disagree, rather than have the question answered and taken to extremes.

Remember the old question of whether God could create a boulder so big he could not lift it? Either way you answer it, the result limits God and enlightens no one.

As far as God in micro control of everything, I know He chooses not to. I believe in a literal Satan (some brothers take another view). Satan rebelled, so it should be seen that it is possible to do other than God's will. To believe that God is in such control as to make your every thought controlled by Him is an attempt to make God responsible for your behavior, and for the unbelief of any doubter.

One pastor repetitively said that "This is the best of all possible worlds". His point, as he would explain further is that the purpose of Creation is to glorify Him. Which do you believe would glorify God more: a race of perfect people who never knew sin, where holiness could not be discerned because there was no alternative, or a community of followers that choose to live and worship Him?

As far as free will, eternal security, predestination, much depends on how you consider things:
God created time when he created both the spiritual and physical realms. John 1:1 predates Genesis 1:1. Since God created time, He stands outside of time and can see all of History. My choices today were known to Him at (and before) creation. He could write my name in a book because I am a believer. He could write a name and cross it out to show the results of willfully fleeing the Holy Spirit. None of this prevents me from making my choice in my present. The reason for God's knowledge and thus writing my name / not writing my name is still my decisions during my lifetime.

 

[Ravindran]

Totally agree, Ravindran. As I mentioned earlier, belief or disbelief in Predestination is irrelevant to how we live as Christians. However, we also know that if someone might not be familiar with the generations of debates on the topic, they may need to become familiar with it. When people study the scriptures they naturally have questions, and it is always good to give responses. The problem comes when people make it a primary issue of the faith.

Agreed! Also, it should be dealt in a friendly way. That is another key thing. often these discussions end up people calling names. That should never happen. I think there is more to learn from either side. The more I learned, the more I started giving up the debates.

And this is a very relevant discussion. I believe knowing God should be one of our key pursuits. How can we serve a God without knowing Him.

 

[Relentless]

Another value in knowing the various differences among believers is that if we encounter an unbeliever who objects to the faith for a particular reason, we may be able to identify which school of thought that is and explain that no all believers agree about it.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Is God all-powerful? It would be good here to describe what you mean and then we can agree or disagree, rather than have the question answered and taken to extremes.

Remember the old question of whether God could create a boulder so big he could not lift it? Either way you answer it, the result limits God and enlightens no one.

As far as God in micro control of everything, I know He chooses not to. I believe in a literal Satan (some brothers take another view). Satan rebelled, so it should be seen that it is possible to do other than God's will. To believe that God is in such control as to make your every thought controlled by Him is an attempt to make God responsible for your behavior, and for the unbelief of any doubter.

One pastor repetitively said that "This is the best of all possible worlds". His point, as he would explain further is that the purpose of Creation is to glorify Him. Which do you believe would glorify God more: a race of perfect people who never knew sin, where holiness could not be discerned because there was no alternative, or a community of followers that choose to live and worship Him?

As far as free will, eternal security, predestination, much depends on how you consider things:
God created time when he created both the spiritual and physical realms. John 1:1 predates Genesis 1:1. Since God created time, He stands outside of time and can see all of History. My choices today were known to Him at (and before) creation. He could write my name in a book because I am a believer. He could write a name and cross it out to show the results of willfully fleeing the Holy Spirit. None of this prevents me from making my choice in my present. The reason for God's knowledge and thus writing my name / not writing my name is still my decisions during my lifetime.

Well written, but there is one major problem with such a theology. It makes salvation and God's choices dependent upon the will and choices of men.

Are we saved because we choose God? Or do we choose God because we are saved? This is the issue at hand, and I firmly believe that we cannot even understand the gospel without the Spirit of God. So i deny this theology that says we choose God when scripture clearly teaches he chose us first.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Arminian theology consistently puts man ahead of God.

 

[Relentless]

Arminian theology consistently puts man ahead of God.

No, it doesn't.

Scripture states that faith is not a work. So choosing to put faith in Jesus is not a work. And since it's not a work, it is not self-saving. If someone who is drowning is thrown a rope, and they take hold of it so the other person can pull them out, the one who was drowning never claims to have saved their own life. They are grateful to the one who threw them the rope and pulled them in. But that person could not have saved the drowning one if they didn't take hold of the rope.

Jesus makes the offer of salvation freely; it is a gift. And a gift cannot be earned or forcefully given. But the acceptance of a gift is not self-giving. I've also used the illustration of a marriage proposal. The ring isn't cheap and cost plenty, but it is offered as a gift to the beloved. It cannot be forced, and if accepted it cannot be considered earning a wage.

I could say many negative things about the teachings of Calvinism. But as I said, it's pointless. There is no difference between Calvinists and Armineans in how a Christian lives or spreads the gospel.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

No, it doesn't.

Scripture states that faith is not a work. So choosing to put faith in Jesus is not a work. And since it's not a work, it is not self-saving. If someone who is drowning is thrown a rope, and they take hold of it so the other person can pull them out, the one who was drowning never claims to have saved their own life. They are grateful to the one who threw them the rope and pulled them in. But that person could not have saved the drowning one if they didn't take hold of the rope.

Jesus makes the offer of salvation freely; it is a gift. And a gift cannot be earned or forcefully given. But the acceptance of a gift is not self-giving. I've also used the illustration of a marriage proposal. The ring isn't cheap and cost plenty, but it is offered as a gift to the beloved. It cannot be forced, and if accepted it cannot be considered earning a wage.

I could say many negative things about the teachings of Calvinism. But as I said, it's pointless. There is no difference between Calvinists and Armineans in how a Christian lives or spreads the gospel.

Yes but the scriptures don't say we are drowning in sin, but that we are dead, spiritually dead in sin. God doesn't just throw us a rope he takes our dead bodies to the shore and resurrects us. Salvation is all him, it's not dependent on our rope-grabbing.

If someone doesn't grab the rope then he didn't really save them, he tried. God actually saves, he doesn't try.

 

[Siloam]

Well written, but there is one major problem with such a theology. It makes salvation and God's choices dependent upon the will and choices of men.

Are we saved because we choose God? Or do we choose God because we are saved? This is the issue at hand, and I firmly believe that we cannot even understand the gospel without the Spirit of God. So i deny this theology that says we choose God when scripture clearly teaches he chose us first.

If you follow (and maybe extend) my reasoning, there is nothing that violates concepts as irresistible grace or the election of the saints. One problem is that we habitually think sequentially, since we inhabit time. God does not _only_ inhabit time, and is not limited to sequential actions. If you think sequentially you will always come to some conclusion that either limits your actions or limits God's. The thing is that there is an exact correspondence between those God knew would accept Him and those that actually do. From God's perspective there is no contradiction. And yes, if God had not guided my thoughts and if God had not worked through a particular Christian family, I would be in a different state.

 

[Relentless]

Yes but the scriptures don't say we are drowning in sin, but that we are dead, spiritually dead in sin. God doesn't just throw us a rope he takes our dead bodies to the shore and resurrects us. Salvation is all him, it's not dependent on our rope-grabbing.

If someone doesn't grab the rope then he didn't really save them, he tried. God actually saves, he doesn't try.

If the lost are "as dead as Lazarus", then they cannot sin, since the dead can do nothing good or bad. Dead is dead; the dead cannot sin.

Conversely, being capable of choosing or rejecting the gift of salvation means being grateful, rather than lucky.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

If the lost are "as dead as Lazarus", then they cannot sin, since the dead can do nothing good or bad. Dead is dead; the dead cannot sin.

Conversely, being capable of choosing or rejecting the gift of salvation means being grateful, rather than lucky.

Dead IN sin. I said spiritually did I not?

Are you saying since God saved me and I had no part in it I cannot be grateful? Quite the opposite, more like ETERNALLY grateful!