Is Ghandi In Heaven...or Will He Be?..

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by THALLON, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. Yes, but not every statement a Member makes must have a Scripture passage to back it up.
     
  2. I agree with you completely. That is why I said....."It would be wonderful if some" could be supported.
     
  3. Unfortunately, there is not a specific passage related to Gandhi's specific fate.

    However, in Romans 2:14, 15 Paul says, "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that they have the requirements of the law written on their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts not accusing, now even defending them."

    This is from NIV but I know other translations say that those who follow the law when they have not been given it are better off than those who have the law but do not keep it.

    Now, this is tricky because a few verses prior to this, it indicates that those who are outside of the faith are lost. For me, I read this, however, as it saying that those who display virtue despite being visibly outside the Church, are indeed not without hope. And in the parable of the sheep and the goats there is amble scriptural indication that those who do good and righteous things in fact do know God, giving them membership in the Church albeit invisibly despite their visible absence.

    This position has a fairly good standing in historical Christendom, though some of the unfortunate consequences of scholasticism have uprooted it, we do in fact have an obligation to evangelize as best we can, and also to profess a belief in Christology, but whether those who reject it because of what is known as "invincible ignorance" are entirely without hope and damned to hell is not entirely clear, and depends greatly on one's theology and what weight it gives to various scriptures.

    Now, I identify with mainline Protestantism more so than evangelism which means I tend to view theological questions through more of a mysterious lens than a definitive or dogmatic one.

    Major, your theology is more dogmatic than mine and I presume you are fairly comfortable saying Gandhi is in hell because he died without believing in Christ, 1 John 5:12.

    I look at the totality of scripture, reason, experience, tradition, and some common sense, and I'm just not comfortable saying Gandhi is in hell. And this is because my theology holds that virtue comes from God, and Gandhi demonstrated the beatitudes very well throughout his life, so for me, I just don't know where he is at the moment, but I also don't believe he is without hope.
     
  4. Your comment was......."Major, your theology is more dogmatic than mine and I presume you are fairly comfortable saying Gandhi is in hell because he died without believing in Christ, 1 John 5:12. "

    That is not correct my friend. My understanding is actually Bible centered and yours does not seem to be that at all. Yours is more self centered with opinions than Biblical truth.

    Then you said............
    I look at the totality of scripture, reason, experience, tradition, and some common sense, and I'm just not comfortable saying Gandhi is in hell. And this is because my theology holds that virtue comes from God, and Gandhi demonstrated the beatitudes very well throughout his life, so for me, I just don't know where he is at the moment, but I also don't believe he is without hope.

    In as nice a way as I can say it, your theology is no different than the rest of us. All believers I know of think exactly as you do including myself. We all look at the totality of Scripture, consider its context, reason, tradition, who it is written to and apply our God given common sense to it. Some of us have even gone to higher places of Biblical education to expand on these virtues. God love YOU my friend but you are no different than the rest of us. The difference is that some of us actually believe what the Bible says is the un-fallible and inerrant Word of God.

    Now as for where Gandhi is, I have a real surprise for you. He is dead! Once death overcomes man, hope is over. Death ends hope. If he died without Christ, the Bible says....NOT ME, the Bible says that he is in fact in hell. That is exactly what God said!!!(John 14:6).
    Now, the Bible also says that the punishment a man receives in hell is based on his knowledge of God while alive. It is very possible that he will receive less torment than others. But it is also possible that he will receive more than others based on his knowledge of God. I for one do not know.

    If you are comfortable with your opinion....then that is your choice. Personally I believe that God went to a lot of trouble to have 43 different men over 1500 years pen a document to help me understand God more than what I think.

    You see sir, all men are sinners and out of the hearts of man proceed the evil thoughts of our minds. When left to our own devices and thoughts, we will always give in to the temptation of Satan to turn from God and in fact desire to be like god. That is exactly what Satan did to Adam and Eve and he feels no need to change what obviously works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

    It is always an honor to speak with you and may the Lord bless you!
     
  5. I have never questioned biblical infallibility.

    In fact if you believe in such Gandhi was blessed because he was a peacemaker and thirsted for justice. And as I said before Paul states that such people who follow the law without it are better off than those who have it but don't follow it.
     
  6. Major you have brought up an interesting idea to me
    in that Jesus says he who is for us is not against us,
    Ghandi had the opportunity to believe in Christ and promote/preach Him,
    but did not,
    I would say he would even have been rejected by India if he had been a confessed Christian
    and history would have been entirely different.
    He did not promote the truth of Christ but the idealism of his own religious background mixed with the righteous acts of Jesus,
    so giving lies truth.
    Gandhi summarised his beliefs first when he said "God is Truth". He would later change this statement to "Truth is God".
    Thus he makes all roads lead to salvation: Buddha, islam, hindu, civil rights non violence, bahai,
    he has denied the divinity of Christ and the work of the cross as anything other than the work of a just man.
    What do you reckon?
     
  7. I do not believe the focus is on whether or not he was blessed or a peacemaker or wanted justice. The question was.....
    "Is Ghandi in heaven"?

    The Bible answer is that only those who have placed their faith in Christ will have access to heaven. If he did , he is.
    If he didn't, he isn't. That applies not only to Ghandi but to all of humanity as well. THAT is NOT what I said, it is what Jesus taught us.

    Will you please post the Bible verse where Paul stated such a thing for me?
     
  8. Romans 2:14, 15
     
  9. Like many prominent people of the past, Mhatma Gandhi's image has been cleaned up a bit over the years.
    He was a political and cultural leader, of that there is no question. But he was not a religious or moral leader.
    He moral behaviors at times were somewhat questionable, such as his habit of sleeping with nude teenage girls
    to see if he could maintain his celibacy. The "path is narrow", I personally doubt he found the path.
     
  10. Thanks. Now lets consider those verses.

    My dear brother, the heathen (those who have never heard of Christ, do you think that Ghandi never heard of the name Jesus Christ), are NOT lost because they have never heard of Jesus Christ. They are lost because they are sinners. That is the condition of all men.

    But here is the key, mena are not saved by the light that they have or the law that they keep......they are JUDGED by the light that they have.

    You did not post Romans 2:13. Allow me to do so as it speaks to context.
    "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

    Then Romans 2:16 says....
    'In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel".

    There it is. Do you see it??????

    We have a false hope today that because a man is good or does good he will be saved. God is going to judge the do-gooders along with everyone else. He will judge them exactly as the verse above says He will....by Jesus Christ. God is going to judge religiouse people along with those that do good and the standard of that judgemnt is Jesus Christ.
     
  11. That was never my point though. My point was Paul says in the judgment those who follow are better off than those who don't.

    If that means hypocritical Christians are sentenced to greater torment than moral atheists, fine, but I tend to have a bit more faith that God will harrow most of us into heaven.
     
  12. I hope that you are right. However Jesus says something a little different.

    Matthew 7:13-14
    "Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and may there be which go in thereof' because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadteth unto life, and FEW there be that find it".
     
  13. Romans 5:20
    Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more
     
  14. There have been billions of people (that's billions with a b) who never heard about Jesus.

    They can not be held responsible if they never heard. BUT God will judge them and the passages in Romans outlines this.

    I will not tell God how He is to judge people.

    Scripture is very clear about how those who have heard of Jesus will be judged. God will deal with the others as they have responded to the revelation they have been given.
     
  15. That is what I was trying to say.
     
  16. Amen! Excellant thought.

    God has given to the human race an opportunity to be delivered from the guilt of sin. Praise God!
     
  17. My brother, it really makes no differance what I think. Ido believe what you are saying is valid and I agree completely with you.

    When we try to talk anyone into heaven because they did good things and we are calling God a liar.

    All religious thoughts and disiplines to not lead to God in heaven. That is what we want them to do but if we are Christians and believe that the Word of God is truthful, we see that the "few" Jesus talks about in Matthew 7 are thouse who have placed their complete faith in Jesus Christ and not in anything that they did in oreder to be saved.

    Allow me to tell you what Dr. John Walvoord once taught.

    God is PERFECT. Since that is the case, then where He live must also be just as PERFECT.
    I want to go to heaven so I must be PERFECT. Am I ???? No!!! Everone who is in the right mind will agree with this.

    So how can I an imperfect man go to be with God who is PERFECT and lives in a PERFECT heaven.
    I must become PERFECT!!! I must alow Christ to make me PERFECT. Only the Son of God can take a sinner, clean him up and make him a PERFECT child of God who then has access to God in heaven.

    Romans 8:21
    "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the gloeious liberty of the children of God".
     
  18. I agree with you in principle HSM, but this is where we get caught up in misdirection. If it is not necessary to hear the Gospel to be saved, then we need not evangelize. In fact it would be merciful for us not to.

    That's why I tend to take the approach of saying, we are ensured salvation through the new covenant, but for those who die outside of it, we can still entrust them to the mercy and divine love of God. There is a mysterious element to it that I think should be embraced because many people have done horrible things thinking they had a definitive answer.

    That's why I was saying, it is impossible to repent after death, but we don't know what kind of miracles God can perform posthumously on someone's soul. That's why we shouldn't judge someone even if they die in ignorance.
     
  19. I agree. We're saying the same thing.

    It is necessary now that Jesus has appeared in the flesh. We need to get the Word out to everyone.

    But for those who never had a chance to hear, God will deal with them by His mercy.

    And it is not our job to judge whether someone will be in Heaven, that is reserved for God.
     
    Godspell likes this.
  20. Most people don't know what the will of God is in their lives, but it's spelled out in the scriptures for all of us:

    2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)
    Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
     

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