Is Ghandi In Heaven...or Will He Be?..

[Major]

Well, you also make the assumption, though, that people who display the heavenly virtues and the beatitudes can still be away from God. I'm not so sure about that. Even if Gandhi didn't know it, Christ said he was blessed because he was a peacemaker.

As I see it, in some mysterious way he must have known Christ, because I don't see how someone away from Christ can be virtuous like that.

Now that is assumption. Totally! I love ya my brother but you are wishful thinking here. There is no mystery with Christ. He is either your Saviour or He isn't and there is no in-between or lukewarmness.

 

[Major]

Well, that's true. But, the question I have is, did Saul spare Agag because Saul took pity on him, or was doing what he believed was the moral thing, or was he doing it for some self-serving reason. We get into what is really "evil" is it the person's intent or the result of the intent?

If you put nuts in someone's salad, thinking they are allergic to them and you're trying to kill them, but in fact they aren't allergic to them and don't die, are you still guilty for trying to murder them?

Conversely, if you put nuts on someone's salad not realizing that they are allergic and they die, are you guilty of murdering them?

If Saul was condemned for his actions, it wasn't because he spared Agag, it was because his intent was self-serving. If I remember the story correctly, wasn't he commanded to take nothing from that nation but to kill every man woman and child and even the cattle because the land was so entrenched in wickedness? And didn't Saul choose instead to pillage and plunder the goods?

Saul spared Agag because he choose to do so. That was disobeying God my friend. That is sin and it cost him his kingdom.

 

[Major]

No, I disagree. Your trying to separate "following one's heart" with "disobeying a direct command of God". There's no difference. God wouldn't ask someone to violate his own heart. This is where we run into problems with thinking Kings were appointed by God so if you obey your King, no matter how wicked or immoral the directive was, you were actually obeying God.

God doesn't give us direct commands very often, now days, so the best we can do is follow our hearts. In that case, certainly Saul was doing something he knew was wrong. I'm never going to tell someone that it is OK to do something that they know goes against their heart because they hear a voice in their head. God doesn't condemn us for following our heart.

Are you sure about what you just said? It sounds more like that is what you wish God had said and done instead of what He has actually said and done.

Think about what you are saying!

Have you read about what God asked Abraham to do with his own son????

The thought that God never violates what people want to do and the choices they make is something that gets repeated so often that a lot of Christians simply accept it as a Biblically supported fact when it actually is not.

C. S. Lewis put the idea this way:
“Merely to over-ride a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo.”

 

[Godspell]

Are you sure about what you just said? It sounds more like that is what you wish God had said and done instead of what He has actually said and done.

Think about what you are saying!

Have you read about what God asked Abraham to do with his own son????

The thought that God never violates what people want to do and the choices they make is something that gets repeated so often that a lot of Christians simply accept it as a Biblically supported fact when it actually is not.

C. S. Lewis put the idea this way:
“Merely to over-ride a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo.”

Abraham was more concerned with having an heir than a son. When sacrificing him he was upset because he was loosing his successor not his son, and of course he didn't actually have to sacrifice it.

Are you sure about what you just said? It sounds more like that is what you wish God had said and done instead of what He has actually said and done.

Think about what you are saying!

Have you read about what God asked Abraham to do with his own son????

The thought that God never violates what people want to do and the choices they make is something that gets repeated so often that a lot of Christians simply accept it as a Biblically supported fact when it actually is not.

C. S. Lewis put the idea this way:
“Merely to over-ride a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo.”

God gave you a conscience and a brain, Major, use them. I sincerely worry that some idiot is going to do something stupid because your insisting that God asks us to do things against our heart.

Even if He has in the past, no one here is the King of Israel.

Saul spared Agag because he choose to do so. That was disobeying God my friend. That is sin and it cost him his kingdom.

From what I've studied I have come to understand the decision was made out of negligence not mercy. Certainly Christ taught us to be merciful.

 

[Ravindran]

Personally, I find it hard to imagine a world in which Gandhi who lived his life so much like Christ, does not make it. But, it is not my place to judge.

On the outer it looks like he lived a life like Master.. Inside, it was complete opposite. Gandhi's work would not have glorified God.. There is a huge difference..

 

[Godspell]

On the outer it looks like he lived a life like Master.. Inside, it was complete opposite. Gandhi's work would not have glorified God.. There is a huge difference..

Perhaps you never learned what British imperialists did to Indians at the time, even in the name of God. Surely allowing them freedom and self determination was pleasing to God, whether or not Gandhi knew it.

 

[Ravindran]

Perhaps you never learned what British imperialists did to Indians at the time, even in the name of God. Surely allowing them freedom and self determination was pleasing to God, whether or not Gandhi knew it.

You are talking with a native Indian!! The last thing you need to do is teach history to an Indian.. Of course I very well know what British did to Indians... I can blindly say, I would know and understand that better than almost everyone here..

If there is a way to live a life like Christ without being washed in the blood of Lamb, there would be no reason for the cross

 

[Godspell]

You are talking with a native Indian!! The last thing you need to do is teach history to an Indian.. Of course I very well know what British did to Indians... I can blindly say, I would know and understand that better than almost everyone here..

If there is a way to live a life like Christ without being washed in the blood of Lamb, there would be no reason for the cross

I'm sorry if I offended you.

I'm just saying Gandhi did a lot of good, Christlike things. I don't know how that would be possible if he was truly outside the body of Christ.

 

[Ravindran]

I'm sorry if I offended you.

I'm just saying Gandhi did a lot of good, Christlike things. I don't know how that would be possible if he was truly outside the body of Christ.

Certainly not! May be I should have used some smileys like this Sometimes it's hard to convey the tone of the message in mere messages..

You are right in saying that.. But the way I look at it is, we are either body of Christ or not.. No in between right.. so we do things for the glory of God or not.. That's it.. When the motive is not to glorify God, there is no point in doing works.. And those works are not the same as works produced out of faith..

 

[Godspell]

Certainly not! May be I should have used some smileys like this Sometimes it's hard to convey the tone of the message in mere messages..

You are right in saying that.. But the way I look at it is, we are either body of Christ or not.. No in between right.. so we do things for the glory of God or not.. That's it.. When the motive is not to glorify God, there is no point in doing works.. And those works are not the same as works produced out of faith..

I agree with this. But don't be too quick to canonize sinners. We won't know what accommodations God will make for us in the end.

 

[Ravindran]

I agree with this. But don't be too quick to canonize sinners. We won't know what accommodations God will make for us in the end.

But based on what God has revealed in scripture, He does not plan to have any accommodations.. Jesus simply closed the discussion by saying "I am the way"

 

[Godspell]

But based on what God has revealed in scripture, He does not plan to have any accommodations.. Jesus simply closed the discussion by saying "I am the way"

Yes, from the word of our Lord it would appear so.

However we can always trust in the mercy and justice of God and pray for the salvation of all.

Whether it makes a difference in the end is speculation.

 

[THALLON]

You are talking with a native Indian!! The last thing you need to do is teach history to an Indian.. Of course I very well know what British did to Indians... I can blindly say, I would know and understand that better than almost everyone here..

If there is a way to live a life like Christ without being washed in the blood of Lamb, there would be no reason for the cross

that's right, Jesus wasted His time and ours by going to the cross and even saying everything He said
if a man, like Gandhi or any man, could just do some good works, if that's all anybody needs to qualify for heaven.
Jesus knew He was to die the next day,
He could have run away,
He even asked His Father for a way out of doing it,
and when arrested He said He could call on a legion of Angels to rescue Him,
but He went through with it,
abuse, lied about, spat on, handed from one petty dictator to another,
wiped, crowned with thorns,
crucified naked.
for what?? so people like Gandhi or Buddha or mohammed or whoever could just get into heaven through the back door,
there is no back door,
there is only ONE door: Jesus.
There is NO doubt about the QUALITY of Ghandi,
as a person I would be pleased to meet him and have him as a friend, anyone would,
and there is precedence in that God took enoch gen5 because He walked with God, so it may be agued that Gandhi being Christ like
could find salvation based on his works alone.
But such men are one in a million.
Also,
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked,
“Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me.”
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
Well, Jesus Himself says if you keep all the commandments you will go to heaven?
true or false?
So the work of Christ upon the cross was to open the door of heaven for the 99.9%
of us who can't keep the commandments?

 

[Godspell]

that's right, Jesus wasted His time and ours by going to the cross and even saying everything He said
if a man, like Gandhi or any man, could just do some good works, if that's all anybody needs to qualify for heaven.
Jesus knew He was to die the next day,
He could have run away,
He even asked His Father for a way out of doing it,
and when arrested He said He could call on a legion of Angels to rescue Him,
but He went through with it,
abuse, lied about, spat on, handed from one petty dictator to another,
wiped, crowned with thorns,
crucified naked.
for what?? so people like Gandhi or Buddha or mohammed or whoever could just get into heaven through the back door,
there is no back door,
there is only ONE door: Jesus.
There is NO doubt about the QUALITY of Ghandi,
as a person I would be pleased to meet him and have him as a friend, anyone would,
and there is precedence in that God took enoch gen5 because He walked with God, so it may be agued that Gandhi being Christ like
could find salvation based on his works alone.
But such men are one in a million.
Also,
Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked,
“Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me.”
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
Well, Jesus Himself says if you keep all the commandments you will go to heaven?
true or false?
So the work of Christ upon the cross was to open the door of heaven for the 99.9%
of us who can't keep the commandments?

Please don't disparage the cross, even in a sarcastic manner.

Christ died to save us from death. Prior to His action, all the people who ever lived descended into hades/sheol. Christ made it possible for them to come into timeless union with God. The fact that people who die without knowing Christ experience that union as torment, and that it might be possible for one or more to be purged of iniquities for the sake of their soul, does not disparage the necessity of the Cross.

 

[THALLON]

Please don't disparage the cross, even in a sarcastic manner.

Christ died to save us from death. Prior to His action, all the people who ever lived descended into hades/sheol. Christ made it possible for them to come into timeless union with God. The fact that people who die without knowing Christ experience that union as torment, and that it might be possible for one or more to be purged of iniquities for the sake of their soul, does not disparage the necessity of the Cross.

My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ knows what I mean
and that I would never trample on what He has done for me by granting me
eternal life through His work and nothing I could do could purchase such.
And God knows that my manner of speech was to emphasise that both He, God the Father, and our Lord,
and The Holy Spirit did not embark upon this endeavour for small effect so someone could quote
their good deeds and so unravel what has been prepared since the dawn of time,
what creation groans to see to come to pass,
that creation should give birth to many sons of God.
When we sin we trample on the cross, we grow rich and fat and full of the scriptures
but become lusty horses using our protection and peace as a covering of failure,
surely to be spewed out on the tribulation,
when men of Christian faith will give account.
But if I do not have love,
all my words are noise of religious nothing,
if I cannot fracture my reality with love and goodness
to help my brothers and sisters in Christ then I have failed as a person....forever....

 

[KingJ]

Godspell, reality is that if someone is truly ''good'' they will find Jesus, the King of good.

Ghandi ranks high on good works no doubt. But, nobody, not even the British with all their might and poor reflection of Christianity can stop Ghandi from meeting Jesus. Look at Joan of Arc.

In the NT God reveals Himself as Jesus and that is the bottom line. That is why Jesus says 'I am the way'. Anyone following / doing selfless works will meet Jesus!!!! James 1:27, James 4:8. So, if they don't, are they truly selfless / good? Jer 17:10

As for 'following our hearts' = Jer 17:9.

 

[Abdicate]

No, I disagree. Your trying to separate "following one's heart" with "disobeying a direct command of God". There's no difference. God wouldn't ask someone to violate his own heart. This is where we run into problems with thinking Kings were appointed by God so if you obey your King, no matter how wicked or immoral the directive was, you were actually obeying God.

God doesn't give us direct commands very often, now days, so the best we can do is follow our hearts. In that case, certainly Saul was doing something he knew was wrong. I'm never going to tell someone that it is OK to do something that they know goes against their heart because they hear a voice in their head. God doesn't condemn us for following our heart.

Oh I disagree with that. Here's two examples.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Pro 3:5 KJV] 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

We condemn ourselves, not God. God's word is true and every man a liar, Rom 3:4.

 

[Ravindran]

Yes, from the word of our Lord it would appear so.

However we can always trust in the mercy and justice of God and pray for the salvation of all.

Whether it makes a difference in the end is speculation.

Trying to think outside of Word of God is unnecessary speculation.. I would rather stick with what Word says rather than thinking if there is anything beyond that..

 

[Major]

You are talking with a native Indian!! The last thing you need to do is teach history to an Indian.. Of course I very well know what British did to Indians... I can blindly say, I would know and understand that better than almost everyone here..

If there is a way to live a life like Christ without being washed in the blood of Lamb, there would be no reason for the cross

God bless you my brother! Be strong in the Lord and truth will always triumph!

 

[Major]

Trying to think outside of Word of God is unnecessary speculation.. I would rather stick with what Word says rather than thinking if there is anything beyond that..

Amen! Exactly what I have been saying as well!