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Is Ghandi In Heaven...or Will He Be?..

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by THALLON, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. There are many men who are good, I mean really really good, better than me by miles...
    but are they going to heaven when they die or even on the judgement day?
    1. All men, including Ghandi, are sinners, absolutely all.
    So all men need forgiveness, including Ghandi.
    So GOOD WORKS are not the issue,
    SIN is the issue.
    Unless you wash away sin you cannot be acceptable by works. If you obey the LAWS of God you MUST obey
    ALL the laws, but even IF you obey all the Laws you still need forgiveness. So Ghandi was a law unto himself.
    2. Nobody comes to God except through Jesus Christ.
    Jesus Christ fulfils the law and is the sacrifice for Sins.
    Anybody, Ghandi or mohammed or Buddha or joe the fireman, who rejects Jesus Christ CANNOT be saved
    from the lake of fire.
    God has made JESUS number one, the only one, the doorkeeper. Jesus is the heir of the Kingdom.
    So good works are, while they have the appearance of godliness and acceptance are altogether
    made worthless, as far getting into heaven.
    You are a sinner, but through Christ, if you have believed in him and accepted Him, you are made acceptable to God, He stands up for you in the court of heavenly places and pleads your case not to be thrown into hell.
    Ghandi has no lawyer.
    Now on the Judgement day every one whose name is not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, everyone.
    I think there may be individuals like Ghandi who have a case based on their deeds to appeal,
    but if they have rejected Jesus they have already lost their case: because they are sinners.
    But what if they like Buddha never heard of Jesus, well Jesus went from the cross down into
    hell and took captive those who would believe. Every single human is known by God, all who
    have lived and died with or without the saving knowledge of Christ.
    When God destroyed the Earth with flood ONLY noah and his family were saved,
    all the rest: the kids, the old people, those getting married, those starting out in life, those who just got a job, those who won a million seashells, whatever, whoever, ALL of them were destroyed without
    PITY OR MERCY. And there were probably many good people, but who is good?
    EVEN Jews with the Law have been judged by God numerous times.
    GOOD works must come from FAITH, and can never save, they are fruits of Faith.
    If you doing good to get into heaven: GIVE UP,
    Jesus gets you in, but while your here you are being sanctified and made ready.
  2. Romans 2:12 (KJV)
    For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
  3. Upon death, the sinner's soul descends into hades where it awaits in consciousness, but without the ability to repent, until the final judgment. What accommodations God might make to move the sinner from death into life is unknown to us. It could be that all those who die without knowledge of Him will be damned, or it could also mean that none are in the end. Anything more than this is mere speculation and we have no right to canonize sinners.

    Personally, I find it hard to imagine a world in which Gandhi who lived his life so much like Christ, does not make it. But, it is not my place to judge.
  4. You are making some innocent mistakes.

    - Sin does not get us into hell. Think about Abrahams bosom.
    - God is not dumb. God does not send anyone to hell if there is a morsel of hope for them accepting Him.
    - If Ghandi was truly selfless, he was a stone throw away from accepting Jesus.

    I believe all the good religious people out there that never heard or grasped the gospel of Jesus, get a visit from Him on their deathbed. Going against the flow of pride and popularity / world is not easy for anyone. God definitely takes notice!

    These verses come to mind:
    James 1:27, 1 Cor 11:31, Rom 14:5 and Acts 13:22
  5. hi, interesting about lazarus going to Abrahams bosom, i'm texting my pastor for an answer.
    Your second comment is not consistent with what God does, he totally destroyed mankind in the flood, he cast the angels out of heaven,
    he told moses to step aside so he could destroy the jews who came out of Egypt. Jesus went down to hell cause there were lots of people there,
    but as to the lake of fire anyone whose name was not written in the book of life was thrown in.
    Gandhi said....he could accept Jesus "as a martyr, an embodiment of sacrifice, and a divine teacher, but not as the most perfect man ever born. His death on the Cross was a great example to the world, but that there was anything like a mysterious or miraculous virtue in it, my heart could not accept."
    1. the context is about wealth, but I see how could lazarus without any works, and being a sinner, obtain a place in heaven?
    Luke 16
    21There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
    25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
    27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
    29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
    30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
    31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
  6. 1. God completely destroyed because He completely knew that all their hearts were completely beyond hope. Babies, kids and mentally handicapped went to heaven. But then....whose to say there were not other adults that went to heaven apart from those on Noah's arc?

    Jesus took all those in Abraham's bosom / paradise with Him into heaven. Sin kept them there. Yet there were those in Hades. Now why was it that both had sinners.... yet some were in paradise and others in Hades?

    2. What I read is that Ghandi respected Jesus. He just didn't receive a revelation from the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Lord 1 Cor 12:3. That is drawing close to Him surely? ...as is his ''good works''. Hence I highly suspect a deathbed encounter. I know of quite a few elderly who made right with Jesus before death. When Ghandis life points to a heart after God's why do you assume differently / God is dumb? James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

    You need to remember that the gospel to mankind has ALWAYS been as simple as repent and turn from wickedness Psalm 51:17. The only change to the gospel to mankind NT is repent + good news of the resurrection / cross (no need for paradise / Abrahams bosom).

    3. Your belief / bolding those texts is confusing me. Do you believe Lazarus was in paradise because he was poor? and the rich man, hell because he was rich? Your bolding of verse 30 contradicts all the other bolded texts.

    Lazarus went to paradise because he repented / desire to repent / desire to fight wickedness / had a heart after God's. The rich man went to hell because he did not desire repentance. That verse 30 is a great verse to use with atheists. It is clear proof that ''miracles / God appearing'' will not change ones heart.
    autumn oddity and Major say Amen and like this.
  7. " the Lord is not willing that any should perish,"
    I take back that is what God does. He did go down to Sodom to check it out, and did save lot and his wife, but the rest he burned.
    Sorry about the highlighting, i'm tired.
    I get thoughts and then think well that's important so I'd better highlight that.
    The context of the lazarus parable is about wealth, the gulf between heaven and hell, and peoples stubbornness.
    Since lazarus could not believe in Jesus he must have met conditions of the law or moses to be entitled to salvation.
    I like your point about death bed confessions, I think i'll start another post, thanks.
    KingJ likes this.
  8. Only One was made righteous on His own and He died so we could be made righteous anyone who does receive Him will be eternal seperaated from Him.
    Major likes this.
  9. I agree. It is not our place to judge and I for one am glad of that.

    John 5:22
    "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son".

    However, the same Bible that says that clearly says that only the ones who come to Christ by faith will be saved from Hades.

    John 14:6
    "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    What would be helpful for a lot of people who ask this same question would be for them to grasp that there are degrees of punishment in Hades for the lost person who did not accept Christ. The people who reject or did not accept Christ will ALL go to Hades BUT their punishment will differ according to the information that they were exposed to during their lifetime.

    An in depth study of Matthew 10:12-15.....11:20-24 and Luke 12:45-48 are just a few of the Scripture that teach this doctrine.
    autumn oddity likes this.
  10. Agreed!
  11. Good stuff! I am on your side 100%.
  12. I would encourage you to read all of the parables of Jesus. What you will notice is that He never used a "proper" name in any of them.
    Then when we come to Luke 16 we see that Jesus names Lazarus and Abraham. What that tells us is that Luke 16 IS NOT A PARABEL!

    The story is NOT about wealth or the lack there of. It is an actual, literal exegeses from the Lord Jesus on the conditions of hell. The truth is that Jesus spoke more about hell than He did heaven.
    That should set off some lights in our thinking.

    You see, with the using of proper names He calls the existence of those named into actual perspective and makes it a real story not a parable.

    I for one believe that all the parables were concerning actual people but only the one in Luke 16 contains the names of those involved, but that is just me. I am sure there will be many people who do not agree with that opinion and it is an opinion.
  13. Well, we know that God has promised to save those who participate in the New Covenant. It is possible for others to who die in invincible ignorance to be purged from hades but it is speculation. Of course we can always trust in the mercy and justice of God, but we cannot use that as an excuse to abdicate our Great Commission.

    So we get to this point. We don't know if Gandhi died without Christ, we don't know if he had if that's the end of the line. But we do know that we're not allowed to say for sure that he didn't, so if people want to believe he did that is fine, again as long as they maintain the importance to evangelize.
  14. Of course that is true. We for a fact do not know who is saved and who is not saved. We can speculate and make conclusions on our observations of those people, but the truth is....we do not know.

    What we do know is that Biblically speaking, all who die outside of Christ are not saved. We know that for sure. We also know that those in the Old Covenant were saved as well my brother, not because they followed the law but because they believed God. All who had faith in God were saved.

    Romans 4:1-3
    "What shall we say then that Abraham our father as pertaining to the flesh hath found?
    For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory but not before God. For what saith the Scriptures? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness".
  15. What is your opinion Clark, if I may be so bold as to ask such a question of you: why so many well meaning believers in Christ can not or will not accept the Bible doctrine of eternal torments for those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not going to list the Bible verses that confirm that as I know you already know them. It just seems to me that time after time we see people try to excuse the clear direction of God's Word concerning the wicked lost and their eternal location.
  16. Well, you also make the assumption, though, that people who display the heavenly virtues and the beatitudes can still be away from God. I'm not so sure about that. Even if Gandhi didn't know it, Christ said he was blessed because he was a peacemaker.

    As I see it, in some mysterious way he must have known Christ, because I don't see how someone away from Christ can be virtuous like that.
  17. That's a perfect statement summarizing the effects of Adam and Eve eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil..... The tree of Knowledge of Morality... That there is some independent rule defining "Good" and "Evil" outside of God....

    Every single one of us wrestles with the conundrum..... Continually....

    I am slowly coming to accept that this human concept of "Good" and "Evil" is inherently flawed.... and what we should really attempt to embrace is "With God" and "Against God"....

    For example... Say you are a charitable person... A warm hearted person... And you spend your fortune funding "Helpful" and "Important" causes... Although they seem "Moral" and "Good" - exactly 100% of those causes stand AGAINST the will of God..... Are you "Doing Good"... OR.. Are you creating a BIGGER MESS that God has to clean up later?

    Think of Saul sparing King Agag in 1st Samuel.... This seems like a Moral thing to do... A Charitable thing to do... That saving a life is BETTER than taking a life.... But.. If Saul had NOT spared King Agag - there would have been no Haman trying to destroy Israel in the book of Esther.....
  18. Well, that's true. But, the question I have is, did Saul spare Agag because Saul took pity on him, or was doing what he believed was the moral thing, or was he doing it for some self-serving reason. We get into what is really "evil" is it the person's intent or the result of the intent?

    If you put nuts in someone's salad, thinking they are allergic to them and you're trying to kill them, but in fact they aren't allergic to them and don't die, are you still guilty for trying to murder them?

    Conversely, if you put nuts on someone's salad not realizing that they are allergic and they die, are you guilty of murdering them?

    If Saul was condemned for his actions, it wasn't because he spared Agag, it was because his intent was self-serving. If I remember the story correctly, wasn't he commanded to take nothing from that nation but to kill every man woman and child and even the cattle because the land was so entrenched in wickedness? And didn't Saul choose instead to pillage and plunder the goods?
  19. Saul was Condemned because he consistently WILLFULLY and Intentionally failed to obey the direct commands of God.
    Doesn't matter that he decided to do it either for "Good" reasons or for "Evil" reasons....

    Nothing more or less than this....

    The Bible is very confusing until this "clicks".....
    Major likes this.
  20. No, I disagree. Your trying to separate "following one's heart" with "disobeying a direct command of God". There's no difference. God wouldn't ask someone to violate his own heart. This is where we run into problems with thinking Kings were appointed by God so if you obey your King, no matter how wicked or immoral the directive was, you were actually obeying God.

    God doesn't give us direct commands very often, now days, so the best we can do is follow our hearts. In that case, certainly Saul was doing something he knew was wrong. I'm never going to tell someone that it is OK to do something that they know goes against their heart because they hear a voice in their head. God doesn't condemn us for following our heart.

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