Irresistible Grace & People "falling Away" From Christianity. How Does This Happen?

[Abdicate]

How can you say "He knows all things," but then believe that it's not his desire for the outcome of some of his objects. Did He really know all things then?

This would be like an automative engineer claiming he knows everything about cars, but then 90% of the cars he builds don't work. Did he really know everything about cars?

Do you make plans? Do you set goals? Do they all come to fruition? God's will WILL be done, He'll just find another. Nothing is hidden from God.

Hebrews 4:13 (KJV)
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

 

[TezriLi]

.

 

[TezriLi]

Oh, people. Please forgive me. I can't erase what I wrote now, but seriously, why continue to write in a way that makes women seem no more than chattel? It makes us look bad -- makes us look ignorant. The cyber-robots are out there looking for this kind of stuff in order to spread it around to non-believers who want us to look like fools. And it's irritating to some women. Why not endear yourself to us by leaving off such sexist writing? For those who don't care, they will still appreciate your efforts. The quotations were take from here, and I admit that I have purposely forgotten who wrote them.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

Oh, people. Please forgive me. I can't erase what I wrote now, but seriously, why continue to write in a way that makes women seem no more than chattel? It makes us look bad -- makes us look ignorant. The cyber-robots are out there looking for this kind of stuff in order to spread it around to non-believers who want us to look like fools. And it's irritating to some women. Why not endear yourself to us by leaving off such sexist writing? For those who don't care, they will still appreciate your efforts. The quotations were take from here, and I admit that I have purposely forgotten who wrote them.

I scrolled up, and I couldn't figure out what post you were referring to.

 

[TezriLi]

Good. Perhaps they were faster than I am, and they erased it. That would be a good thing! I was distracted by fresh dinner rolls.

 

[KingJ]

I met a "woman" who identifies as such when he is actually a pre-op transsexual. We began talking because he saw the tiny dove pendant I had on my necklace and presumed I was Christian.

Long story short, he said he identified himself now as an atheist. But had formerly been Christian but had fallen away from the faith.

This got me curious and so here I am.

When there is such a thing as irresistible grace how does someone fall away? Is it that they were not in grace in the first place? But simply held faith in the institution of Christianity?

And on that note, when irresistible grace is bestowed by God's predestination through the Holy Spirit, what does that mean as to not only the message of the cross, that Jesus sacrifice saved the whole world, especially those that believe, but for those who are not appointed irresistible grace?

Does it mean God predestined some people to die unsaved? How does irresistible grace apply when Jesus saved the whole world?

Thank you for your sincere replies and patience with my questions. Had I not met this young man today I don't think I would have arrived at them. God Bless.

Most times the truth is right in front of us. Sinners manipulate scripture to accommodate their sin. Everyone is a sinner. Manipulation of scripture should be expected and we have all been guilty of it.

So what truth is in front of us? Well 1. He is still alive, so God has not given up hope. 2. God made him male yet he has made himself female. So he is not interested in respecting / honoring / submitting to God's will for his life. 3. You and I have the power right now to pull the middle finger to God or to bow the knee.

We need to look at where the evidence points and not try to fully understand God. How can an ant grasp the mechanics of the Creator of all? The evidence points to free will with common sense and in scripture, every-time we see a verse that suggests / states God is just and good.

God forcing people to serve Him = evil. God pre selecting people for heaven = evil. Our human brains conclude this from God being omniscient and Creator. But we simply fail at the truth. Just like we can't explain God's origin or lifespan. God is good, not evil.

This guy could have touched Jesus / been 'Christian'. But as we know from scripture, not all who say 'Lord, Lord' Matt 7:22..... Many touch Jesus out of curiosity and selfish needs. Not many to give up their life for Him. Would you say this guy ever gave up his life for Jesus? I wouldn't.

 

[CCW95A]

I have no issue with that. I just don't think that God ignores people because He knows they'll be atheists.

Those who will go to hell have the same opportunity as those who will go the Heaven.

 

[CCW95A]

Oh, people. Please forgive me. I can't erase what I wrote now, but seriously, why continue to write in a way that makes women seem no more than chattel? It makes us look bad -- makes us look ignorant. The cyber-robots are out there looking for this kind of stuff in order to spread it around to non-believers who want us to look like fools. And it's irritating to some women. Why not endear yourself to us by leaving off such sexist writing? For those who don't care, they will still appreciate your efforts. The quotations were take from here, and I admit that I have purposely forgotten who wrote them.

Tez, the word, "chattel" which means, "purchased possession " We the church (male/female) are God's purchased possession.
It is in Jewish customs that the Father choose the bride for his Son. Once he chooses a bride for his Son, he makes a payment to the brides father. Once that is done the bride, and the Son are legally married even though the wedding ceremony has not yet happened.
She is known as the purchased possession. We are not our own, but have been purchased with a price. In the New Testament we have been given the Holy Spirit as our "Earnest of the Spirit" as this down payment, and guarantee. 2 Cor 5:5 The word, "Earnest" means "down payment for property" The modern day translation of this exact word means, "Engagement Ring" The Holy Spirit was given to his bride as an engagement ring to his chattel Purchased possession, which is us his Church, male, and female. We are already legally married to the Lord even though the ceremony has not yet taken place!

 

[TezriLi]

Tez, the word, "chattel" which means, "purchased possession " We the church (male/female) are God's purchased possession.
It is in Jewish customs that the Father choose the bride for his Son. Once he chooses a bride for his Son, he makes a payment to the brides father. Once that is done the bride, and the Son are legally married even though the wedding ceremony has not yet happened.
She is known as the purchased possession. We are not our own, but have been purchased with a price. In the New Testament we have been given the Holy Spirit as our "Earnest of the Spirit" as this down payment, and guarantee. 2 Cor 5:5 The word, "Earnest" means "down payment for property" The modern day translation of this exact word means, "Engagement Ring" The Holy Spirit was given to his bride as an engagement ring to his chattel Purchased possession, which is us his Church, male, and female. We are already legally married to the Lord even though the ceremony has not yet taken place!

 

[LanceA]

So God decides not to save some people just show how mean He can be if they disobey which they are only doing because God denied them Christ? That sounds pretty evil to me. Calvinism makes God the author of evil, and I don't worship an evil author.

Read Romans 10:9

We have to confess and believe. How hard is that for you to believe? You blame God for someone not being saved or whatever.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Read Romans 10:9

We have to confess and believe. How hard is that for you to believe? You blame God for someone not being saved or whatever.

I agree with that. What makes you think I don't?

 

[Ravindran]

Someone will raise this topic every now and then! I am going to give a slightly different response instead of getting into arguments..

Freewill argument - Looking salvation from man's perspective
Predestination - Salvation from God's perspective..

What do I mean by this.. Most of us have kids or have spent time with kids.. What we do with them? We define boundaries. Within that boundary, the kid has freedom to do whatever it wants.. The implication of the kids action is confined to the boundary established by parents. The kid has free will, but the father (or parent) has established the boundaries.. Same goes with salvation.. Man has freewill.. But only God can enable man to choose God freely.. Otherwise, he freely chooses all kinds of evil.. But man does not have freewill to choose between hell and heaven.. The invitation is there, but not the ability to choose.. He can choose only what he is enabled to choose.. Which is only evil before he is regenerate..

The second aspect is, whatever boundary is established for the kid would seem like the whole world.. Man has limited wisdom, unlike God.. with this limited wisdom, we cannot unravel the unlimited wisdom of God.. If we do not know the fullness of His wisdom, is it wise to judge the nature of God?

Finally, I have great comfort that my salvation is the hands of my Savior and not my own ability! I really take great comfort in that.. The One who started a good work in me, will see through the end.. That is not a simple promise.. That is "the promise" for me..

 

[CCW95A]

thg

Someone will raise this topic every now and then! I am going to give a slightly different response instead of getting into arguments..

Freewill argument - Looking salvation from man's perspective
Predestination - Salvation from God's perspective..

What do I mean by this.. Most of us have kids or have spent time with kids.. What we do with them? We define boundaries. Within that boundary, the kid has freedom to do whatever it wants.. The implication of the kids action is confined to the boundary established by parents. The kid has free will, but the father (or parent) has established the boundaries.. Same goes with salvation.. Man has freewill.. But only God can enable man to choose God freely.. Otherwise, he freely chooses all kinds of evil.. But man does not have freewill to choose between hell and heaven.. The invitation is there, but not the ability to choose.. He can choose only what he is enabled to choose.. Which is only evil before he is regenerate..

The second aspect is, whatever boundary is established for the kid would seem like the whole world.. Man has limited wisdom, unlike God.. with this limited wisdom, we cannot unravel the unlimited wisdom of God.. If we do not know the fullness of His wisdom, is it wise to judge the nature of God?

Finally, I have great comfort that my salvation is the hands of my Savior and not my own ability! I really take great comfort in that.. The One who started a good work in me, will see through the end.. That is not a simple promise.. That is "the promise" for me..

"But man does not have freewill to choose between hell and heaven.. The invitation is there, but not the ability to choose.. "

To me this does not make any since. If " the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men" Then all men have the God given right to freely choose between Heaven or hell. All men are freely able to choose life or death, blessing or cursing. There are not a select few who can be saved, all can if they so choose to. God has enabled all to freely choose.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

Someone will raise this topic every now and then! I am going to give a slightly different response instead of getting into arguments..

Freewill argument - Looking salvation from man's perspective
Predestination - Salvation from God's perspective..

What do I mean by this.. Most of us have kids or have spent time with kids.. What we do with them? We define boundaries. Within that boundary, the kid has freedom to do whatever it wants.. The implication of the kids action is confined to the boundary established by parents. The kid has free will, but the father (or parent) has established the boundaries.. Same goes with salvation.. Man has freewill.. But only God can enable man to choose God freely.. Otherwise, he freely chooses all kinds of evil.. But man does not have freewill to choose between hell and heaven.. The invitation is there, but not the ability to choose.. He can choose only what he is enabled to choose.. Which is only evil before he is regenerate..

The second aspect is, whatever boundary is established for the kid would seem like the whole world.. Man has limited wisdom, unlike God.. with this limited wisdom, we cannot unravel the unlimited wisdom of God.. If we do not know the fullness of His wisdom, is it wise to judge the nature of God?

Finally, I have great comfort that my salvation is the hands of my Savior and not my own ability! I really take great comfort in that.. The One who started a good work in me, will see through the end.. That is not a simple promise.. That is "the promise" for me..

I would say this is a good way to look at it.

 

[Ravindran]

thg

"But man does not have freewill to choose between hell and heaven.. The invitation is there, but not the ability to choose.. "

To me this does not make any since. If " the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men" Then all men have the God given right to freely choose between Heaven or hell. All men are freely able to choose life or death, blessing or cursing. There are not a select few who can be saved, all can if they so choose to. God has enabled all to freely choose.

Let me ask this.. When the same Gospel message is heard by 2 people at the same time, one is saved and the other is not.. Is Spirit not able to convict person enough? Or the Word not powerful? If your answer is, the other man hardened his heart.. then read further If not, go ahead and type your response

What made the person's heart to be hardened? Hitler is an unbeliever.. We probably know lot of good people who are unbelievers.. Why their hearts are hardened at different levels?

 

[CCW95A]

Let me ask this.. When the same Gospel message is heard by 2 people at the same time, one is saved and the other is not.. Is Spirit not able to convict person enough? Or the Word not powerful? If your answer is, the other man hardened his heart.. then read further If not, go ahead and type your response

What made the person's heart to be hardened? Hitler is an unbeliever.. We probably know lot of good people who are unbelievers.. Why their hearts are hardened at different levels?

Any time the Word of God is spoken to a unbeliever, that person has a free choice to receive that Word or reject it. No body is holding him back but himself. If that person decides not to act upon what he has heard, he then hardens his heart. The problem is not in the Word or the Spirit of God, but in that persons will, to reject the truth.

 

[SergioL]

So God decides not to save some people just show how mean He can be if they disobey which they are only doing because God denied them Christ? That sounds pretty evil to me. Calvinism makes God the author of evil, and I don't worship an evil author.

He does is to show his power and his wrath (Romans 9:22-23). The whole purpose of the plan of salvation is to reveal the character and attributes of God (John 17:3). This is what I believe.

 

[Huntingteckel]

He does is to show his power and his wrath (Romans 9:22-23). The whole purpose of the plan of salvation is to reveal the character and attributes of God (John 17:3). This is what I believe.

That's the equivalent of a parent forcing a child to do wrong and then breaking their arm while beating them for it. I believe people have a choice and God doesn't deny someone salvation just to show He can be mean.

 

[SergioL]

That's the equivalent of a parent forcing a child to do wrong and then breaking their arm while beating them for it. I believe people have a choice and God doesn't deny someone salvation just to show He can be mean.

Those people don't want to be saved. You are seeing them as people who are desperate to find God and who have repented of their sins, but this is not what they really are. They hate God and they would hate to spend an eternity with him. We should be grateful that God opened our eyes to see the truth. He didn't need to do that and it would have been fair to send us to hell for all eternity, since we were his enemies.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Those people don't want to be saved. You are seeing them as people who are desperate to find God and who have repented of their sins, but this is not what they really are. They hate God and they would hate to spend an eternity with him. We should be grateful that God opened our eyes to see the truth. He didn't need to do that and it would have been fair to send us to hell for all eternity, since we were his enemies.

Alright.