Importance of Works?

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by TrueChristian1990, Nov 14, 2015.

  1. Lord let us understand Romans and keep on understanding Romans, let the Word of God wash all over us now and now and forever so we want to please You because we see Your goodness, let us experience You in such away that we will never be the same and everyday even we can see the change, but especially others can see the change and give all glory to God that they would be saved
     
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  2. He that has no works has no faith. Faith without works is DEAD.
    Both St. James and St. Paul made this quite plain.
     
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  3. James was talking about one sort of works and Paul another .
    Paul said VERY clearly that we are not saved by works lest any man should boast but by grace through faith and that is not of ourselves either it is the gift of God.
    Faith unto salvation is faith in Gods good work on calvary .
    Faith that produces works comes from a new life a new creation unto good works .
    Quite different.
    if you think otherwise then you must then explain your thinking . For as you have stated it in the above you have not.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  4. The just SHALL live by faith which produces good works. Works are a fruit of faith. Works do not create faith. Works without faith is indeed dead because the works of themselves is dead, they mean nothing. But when the Holy Spirit moves and you act on His prompting, you'll have life. If later you do that same work of your own accord, that's dead works. God will NEVER pay you for working, He'll only honor you in faith.
     
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  5. To reply to both of you (geralduk and Abdicate)- I never stated that works create faith.
    I stated " faith without works is dead" as per St. James.
    If you have faith, you will do works. If you claim to have faith but do no works, your faith is dead, a lie.
    We are saved by faith, but a faith that does not produce works is not real faith, just delusion and arrogance.
     
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  6.  
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  7. There are rewards for our works.
    For God is not unfaithful to forget our labour of love .
    and "while a labourer is worthy of his hire"
    We are not 'PAID ' as if we are hirelings .But rewarded as sons .

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  8. Amen
     
  9. I think of the Samaritan woman whom Jesus tribe would ignore because they were declared unfit for whatever reason. And how Jesus at first meeting with her was a bit put offish until she showed faith in who he was thereby crossing those tribal social boundary lines and especially as a woman in that time.
    I don't think the answer to the OP question is all that easy to arrive at.
    The bible throughout speaks of Gods expectations for our good behavior. Even though all things are predestined prior to the creation and by God and for his pleasure. There are those who shall be saved, the elect, and those who shall not. All known by God prior to their births.
    I think what scripture tells us is that we have to do both in order to own the fact that we are worthy of more than being damned for eternity. We have to first believe we are worthy and then we have to feel that change inside us, the indwelling of the holy spirit, as actually present when we act without thinking in matters of charity and good works.
    I can't say I am in Christ and refuse to give a can of fruit from my grocery bag to that food bank charity outside the store.

    I can't say I am showing what Christ is like if I refuse to smile back at the ______________________< individual that we would be visually bias toward on sight . Pick your personal bias and put it in the ^space.

    Many of the parables concerning Jesus meeting those who were suppose to be ignored by his tribe for whatever reason and Jesus at first going along, or at first totally obliterating the bias, speaks to us and how we are with people generally. That's Christ and that's what it is like to be Christ like in my opinion.
    God knows we're human and the brain is largely carnal in its thoughts. Our challenge is to look beyond the material and reach for the spiritual so as to realize what's happening right now isn't all there is. When we link with that understanding the anointing, 'christos', lets us to relax and live the message by example. We become the next script in the scriptures that are posting now as to the truth of God's message. We live the good news by demonstrating just as we are what to do in the midst of this new age. We're to show others that evil can never make grace feel afraid. Not really.

     
  10. Jesus was never moved or conformed to any prejudice and was hardly "a bit put offish" till the serophonecian woman showed faith in who he was.
    Because she demonstarted she ahd faith in who he was by calling him "Son of David"
    She fully believed that he could deliver her daughter . It was her APROACH that was wrong.
    Being a Gentile she could not call on him as "Son of david" only a Jew could do that .
    Plus he gave his reason later why he could not first answer her and then give what she requested.
    So while she dud have faith that he could heal her daughter . She was not in the place where he could legitimately give nor she in a place where she could receive .
    For healing was the childrens bread .
    If God so loved the WORLD . Then no one is excluded from that love . Potentially then ALL could be saved and if all came to Christ all would be saved .
    The promise however is not to ALL but to whosoever believth on Him out of the "all"
    The woman was loved by the Lord then as much as the Jews.
    But untill she fell at his feet and called Him LORD was he able to respond to her .
    Perhaps she had heard of blind Bartemeous who also had called on him as "Son of david" and she ereounously believed there was some ritualistic way or name that would demand his attention.?
    Many a person makes a prayer and simply puts "in jesus name " at the end ansd think thier prayers will be answered. When in fact" they ask amiss "
    Others aproach the Lord in a ritualistic manner devoid both of life and reality and also think they will be heard .
    But God is a living God and demands men come by a living way . Not by another way or a dead way .
    or as if God was dead and only existed in the past .
    We are never worthy of anything from God.
    and it is because" God does not change that we are not consumed"
    Jacobs thinking was that" he was not worthy of the least of his mercys or of all the truths that god had shown him."
    In truth he was saying in effect not only was he NOT worthy of Gods mercy but that he WAS worthy of condemnation and damnation to hell.
    Somewhat different than your perceptions .

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  11. Being a laborer, and working together with God.

    1Cor 3:9 For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (KJV)
    2Cor 6:1 We are workers together with God. So we beg you: Don't let the grace that you received from God be for nothing. (ERV)

    What does this look like? In what way are we working together with God? What exactly is our work, and what exactly is God's work? Being a “co-worker” with the creator of all things sounds like fun to me! Surely, we are laboring together toward a “common” goal. It can not be the Lord is doing his own thing, while we are doing our own thing. Jesus said.....

    John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

    Jesus, the Son of God was co-working together with his Father on this earth in exactly the same way we are to co-work with God today. I am the kind of person who wants to know what my responsibilities are in this working relationship so that my Heavenly father will not be ashamed of me, or that I do not bring contempt upon his court. Jesus, gives insight to what this work is...

    John 6:27 Do not WORK for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which then Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
    John 6:28 Then they said to him, "WHAT MUST WE DO, TO BE DOING THE WORKS OF GOD?"
    John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT."

    The WORKS of God that the we are suppose to be doing is “believing in the one God has sent, which is Jesus Christ the WORD of God” This is why Christians are called “believers”

    To “believe” is to have “faith”. To have faith in what? The Word of God. This sounds to good to be true, and way to easy to do. Having faith in the Word of God is not easy as it takes “WORK” to accomplish! The human “mind” does not accept the things of God, as it considers it “foolish” because it can see, feel, hear, taste, or touch spiritual things. The re birthed human heart has no problems believing. It is our un-renewed mind that always gives us trouble. Over coming this takes WORK, using “spiritual” weapons that are able destroy these thoughts that try to exalt themself against the “knowledge” of God!!!

    2Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
    2Cor 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
    2Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and BRINGING INTO CAPTIVITY EVERY THOUGHT TO THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST;

    My WORK as a Christian is simply to have faith in the Word of God. Doing anything else is going beyond what we are told to do.

    If my WORK is to believe in the Word of God, then what is God's WORK, since we are co-workers together? God's WORK is to perform what man is having faith in him to do!!!

    Man's WORK is to believe, God's WORK is to do. Since God is the Word, having faith in it causes the Word to work for us!!

    Php 2:13.. For it is God which WORKETH in you both to will and TO DO of his good pleasure.

    Abraham learned this, and it was vital to his faith. It caused him to “walk” perfectly with his God. He did not “stagger” at the promises of God in his walk, he simply believed every Word of God that was spoken to him! What did he learn?

    Rom 4:20.. He STAGGERED not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    Rom 4:21.. And BEING FULLY PERSUADED THAT, WHAT HE HAD PROMISED, HE WAS ABLE ALSO TO PERFORM.

    Abraham learned that his faith in the Word of God could only be performed by the one who gave it!!!

    Being a “doer” of the Word is directly connected to our faith in the Word. God is the only one who can do the WORKS of FAITH. If we do the works of faith, then we are taking God's part and doing them, which is not our work, but his! “Faith works by love” (Gal 5:6) God, by himself alone is “love”, and he is the only one who can do the WORKS of faith!!!

    You can not have “true” faith without works, but you can have WORKS without faith!!! When a man does the works of faith he really does not have true faith! This called “iniquity”

    Math 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Math 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Math 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

    Notice, who was doing all these WORKS? They said. “, have WE not prophesied in thy name?.......”
    They were doing them. What did Jesus say they were doing? “iniquity”!!! Our obedience is in our
    believing, not in our doing. Prophesying, casting out devils, and doing other wonderful works in the name of Jesus on your own is called "iniquity"!!
    When "WE" do them it is called "iniquity", but when God does them through us it is called "righteousness". Certainly, God does works through us while we are having faith in himto do them. Jesus said......

    Mar 16:17 And THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    Jesus did not say these signs shall follow them the do them. He said these signs shall follow them that
    believe!

    How did Jesus work together with his Father? Jesus said this about himself.....

    John 5:30 I CAN OF MINE OWN SELF DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    Can you believe this statement? Jesus, the Son of God claiming his inabilites to do anything on his own? Jesus was 100% man and 100% God, he was a God man. The human part of Jesus was unable to perform the WORKS of God on his own. He needed his Father that was dwelling within him to perform the miracles. Jesus the man had total faith, and trust in his Father to do these things through him!!!!

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS.

    Every Word that came out of Jesus, came from his Father. Every miracle came forth from within himself were his Father dwelt. It flowed out of him. This is our perfect example in how we are co workers together with God. Man work is to believe God's Word, God's Work is to perform man faith in him!!!

    Sorry for such a long post!! :)
     
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  12. Yes, without works, faith is dead.

    But, unless all we believe is folly, death is not the end, only a transition.

    Without works, faith waits until the resurection, and then enters His kingdom with little if anything more than when faith first brought one to the Son... But enters he does.

    By exercising faith in works, faith grows stronger and matures as a living testament to our Lord and thus enters His Kingdom as a more mature child of the King.
     
  13. #33 geralduk, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    I am already in the kingdom of God . For I have" been translated from the kingdom of darkness unto the kingdom of Gods dear Son"
    NOW faith is so says the scripture .(Hebrews)
    and your faith will or should manifest the works that go with it .In the same measure as your faith .
    We are REWARDED if we are Christ s for our "labours of love" after we die .

    You say "by excercising faith in works..................." is impossible .
    That is what Cain did and look where that got him.
    Our faith is not or should not be in our works but ALWAYS in Christ and let us also consider who "doeth the work"?
    For is it not "God who worketh with in us bot both to do and to will "
    Did not the Lord Himself say "The words I speak are not my own words but the father who is in me he doeth the works"?

    So what works then do you think JAMES was speaking of?
    and what works do you think PAUL was speaking of.
    Are we to be as" little children" and think just because both James and Paul use the word 'works' they are talkign about the same thing?
    Indeed what works was the Lord speaking of ?

    The time is far spent . The Lord is coming very soon and we (?) are debating things that were debated at the dawn of the church and proved at the Reformation !
    Pray tell how far have we gone then?
    By this not very far at all .
    In truth it could be reasonably argued as much as Paul spoke of to the church at Corinth in 1 Corinthian.
    It should be also understood that if the devil cannot stop people getting saved or rather BORNagain he will do as much to stop them ever growing up even unto "young men the word of God abides in you and ye have overcome the wicked one" Let alone "ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning "
    To be fair you may simply have expressed what you thought badly .
    By excercing our faith our faith grows as muscles do when they are used . and suffer when they are not.
    and in the exercise of our faith in God we by him begin to do the works of God . "according to the measure of our faith"
    in Christ
    gerald
     
  14. Salvation that we have absolutely nothing to do with is an airplane that takes us from the airport to heaven. We however have everything to do with getting to the airport.
     
  15. What do you mean, "Exercising faith in works"?
     
  16. You may well be of His Kingdom, but you are in this world, and, as our Lord said: His Kingdom is not of this world. Semantic battles are often the least productive.

    I expect you understood that I was speaking of heavan, and choose to spar over my choice of word. There are some who would choose to spar over my use of the word 'heavan', but I don't think that would advance any discussion.

    And, of course, whatever one may accomplish through faith exercises that faith and prepares it for greater challenges.

    Anything accomplished outside faith, at best does not effect it, but will more likely cause it to attrophy. Accomplishmemts such as those will be discarded.

    And yes, the enemy would much rather deal with a believer that is too timid in faith to let the Lord lead him. And thus, the enemy maywork very hard misdirecting a new Christian before his faith gets stronger and he becomes a more powerful instrument of our Lord.

    So yes, I may have expressed it badly, but the point of the post was that a workless faith does not mean that the faith does not exist at all.

    Please excuse any misspellings (or auto-correct errors) or other editing errors, I am away from my desktop computer and trying to write this on a small tablet. Frustrating!!!
     
  17. So.. Maybe we should concentrate on discussing the possibility of a workless faith, and whether such could exist in a saved person (regardless of any discussion as to how that person gained salvation)

    I would expect Gerald would deny that as a possible state, but I do not wish to put words in his mouth.

    For myself, I would term thus a possibility, but a truely conflicted state. One that may result from an addictive relationship with his pre-christian behavior
    This is an extremely exaggerated or heightened version of the believers Paul describes in 1 Corinthians Ch 3.

    I would note that verse 15 indicates that all of a person's work can be burned (no world of faith), and he still be saved.
     
  18. if I was IN the kingdom of darkness before and have been translated FROM the kingdom of darkness unto the kingdom of Gods dear SOn.
    Pray tell of what kingdom by you am I now in?
    Do I not live and move in God?
    Does not the scripture say NOW are we the sons of God?
    "if I by the finger of God do cast out demons know ye nthat the kingdom of God has come night unto theee said the Lord.
    The reason why it was nigh unto them was he was the King of the kingdom. and lived not in the world though he was in the world but was not of it .
    So then are we in the world but not of it .
    In truth we are born fo heaven not of this world .
    I dont have a problem with someone simply expressign themselves badly per se.
    But i do have a problem when if it si expressed it misleads or can .
    Then I will seek to correct it .
    we are to live then in the kingdom and manifest it in our lives for the King is or should be enthroned in the heart .
    and not live in the world .

    When the disciples were in the boat in the midst of the storm and were bailing out the boat .
    The boat was in the sea but not of it and while the sea was trying to get into the boat they kept bailing it out .

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  19. Works” has become an emotionally charged word, particularly in faith circles.

    Part of this stems from some that teach about the elect, and how to become worthy to be one of the elect, etc. They use (or I would say misuse) the 2nd chapter of James to support their views. Without going into the concept of the elect, or how one becomes one of that group, I would expect that most main-stream Christians would recognize the attempt to preach working your way to salvation, and understand the pitfall there.

    It is because of this that James becomes a hot-button in many of our minds. Including mine.

    Having said that, I think that it is important of us to consider what we are trying to determine when we ask how important works are. We may want to look at expected benefits, real and illusionary and examine how works (and there may be a better term to use here), allows those benefits to accrue.

    So, I will put forth for discussion several possible ways works may be thought to be important.

    (1) Important for the salvation or justification of the one who performs the work.

    This is the concept that drives me up the mental wall. If we can get past this, I can talk reasonably. I will simply state that to my firm belief this is erroneous. No amount of works will ‘get one into heaven’ when he otherwise would be denied. For me, this is ‘nuf said for this section. If you feel differently, I will listen (read) and consider, but I can tell you, this is a tough sell.

    (2) Works may be used to assess whether someone else is truly a Christian.

    This has a little resonance. A tree is known by its fruit. It would be difficult for a wicked tree to reliably produce virtuous fruit. I used the word 'assess' and purposely avoided using the word “judge”. This is another word with emotional and contextual baggage. I note that in 1 Cor 2:15, the word translated as “judgeth” and “judged” in King James is translated as “assesses” and “assessed” in some others (such as New American Standard).

    But I would urge great caution. Not all benefactors are working in the Lord’s (or your) interests.

    Not all who appear wrong in a man’s eyes are straying from the Lord’s service. The work that the Lord is doing may not be apparent.

    It is very hard to know someone else’s heart.

    Because of this, I would say that is proper to assess who you support or associate with and in what manner, but I would refrain from attempting to state who is and who is not a strong Christian simply based on an external assessment of their life.

    (3) Works may be used to assess one’s self.

    Here, we are getting closer to what I would be comfortable advancing.

    We are often too soft on ourselves. Tell ourselves that we did not mean to harm or give offense. We tell ourselves what our heart was in the right place. It may be so. But if you examine your life, and see many instances where you have to rely on your heart being in the right place, but see few instances where you actually had a positive results (at least in the Lords eyes), then it may be time for a deeper assessment of your commitment to be used by our Lord.

    Our most critical eye should be used when looking in the mirror.

    (4) Works are important to build one’s spiritual life.

    Here, I would like to substitute the word “service” instead of “works”. Surely it is in serving the Lord that good works are done. But in terms of importance, I think using the word service focuses on the real issue.

    For an example, consider one that is sorting food at the local food bank. You may look at the cans moved from the unsorted bins to the bin for vegetables, or baby food, or cereals. You may consider the people that get fed as the result as being the work. It is the service, particularly being faithful to the task over time that is the believer’s gift to the Lord.

    Just as a gift to a loved one is not the sweater or candle in the box, the gift is the consideration of the needs and desires, the stirring of oneself to provide it, and the shared joy of fellowship. Likewise, spiritual service does not consist of people being won for the Lord (but this may be a product), nor the Hymn sung well (but this may be getting closer). Spiritual works are the heart being submissive to His will and then following through. The things that service accomplishes are the Lord’s works, not ours.

    These works are essential to building a strong growing Christian.
     
  20. Man's "work of faith" is to "believe". God's "work" is to do what man is having "faith" in him to do.
     

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