Importance Of Receiving The Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Holy Spirit Baptism and Living' started by pachumonia, Aug 16, 2012.


  1. Numerous places have showed that people had the spirit had other gifts and not tongues. That's a bit of a problem for you. Galatians 5:16 says if you walk by the spirit..... which would be hard if you weren't "spirit filled", you won't give into temptations of the flesh. SO if you claim to speak in tongues, but still give into temptations of the flesh, either you are wrong, or the bible is wrong. Guess which one I'm sidint with?

    Romans 8:9 says if the Spirit indwells you, then you are no longer in the flesh. If you still have that flesh, and claim to be indwelled by the Spirit, then you are wrong, or a liar, or scripture is wrong or a liar.

    What edification does tongues have for the Church?

    If it is divine revelatory speaking in tongues, then there will be a translator gift as well. If not, someone is just pretending so they can posture how they got the spirit and other's don't. I.O.W. its a power play. If someone prays in tongues, and can do it on call, then they are posing, THAT DOES NOT MEAN WITH MALICIOUS INTENT, as having "more of God" than others. Ultimately, that's a claim from weakness trying to show "proof" of God in their lives. Which means they feel there is something to prove, which will ultimately show that He's probably not there else you wouldn't care about how you appeared....

    Jesus told the Apostles they were blessed for seeing the miracles, and believing. But that other people would not see the miracles, and would believe, and would have a greater blessing. So if I am wrong above, then take this, from Jesus, to the bank, if you speak in tongues, then you have a diminished blessing, not an increased blessing. All it would prove is you had to touch Jesus' holes to believe. You had to have one of the miracle gifts to believe.

    And THAT is counterintuitive to the claim, I speak in tongues and you don't! I have the spirit and you don't, neener neener.
     
  2. Ean, the gal 5:16 doesn't say "compelled not to sin". It says will not give into the temptations of the flesh. Does not surrender,,,,,, is not--is compelled not to sin. Do you mean to tell me you are more powerful than the Spirit of God and can still sin if you want, when He said He would not let you?

    And Paul said people were spirit filled but didn't speak in tongues, as well as it might do groanings.

    I'm sorry, when you have to edit verses like gal 5:16 and redact verses where Paul specifically says people were spirit filled but did not speak in tongues, then........you are defending from weakness.

    You have no authority to change scripture, and it is not advised to go changing scripture in lieu to "if you change one bit of it, you will be cursed..."

    I'm sorry, speaking 8n tongues may be a real gift even today, but it removes blessings not gives them, and your arguments reach, not conclude....
     
  3. Hey Xian Pugilist, hope all is well :)

    Let us go back to my original question that no one answered. Did the 12 apostles not follow Jesus? they literally walked with Him and believed in Him, but did Peter not deny Jesus three times? Mat 10:33 tells us that those who deny Jesus will also be denied before the Father in heaven. So his sin is very great.

    But when the Holy Spirit came down, the bible records that the people spoke in tongue. Of course I totally agree that the Holy Spirit also have other gifts that comes with it. But in most of the records of when people received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongue. So for us today, when a member prays and ask for the Holy Spirit, we would know that they have received the Holy Spirit when they spoke in tongue.

    Mat 7:11- Jesus told us to ask for the Holy Spirit

    When the Holy Spirit came down, they were filled with power, and Peter spoke and 3000 believed.

    Now, to walk and bear fruit of the Holy Spirit, we must cultivate ourselves and pray to God yes? it is impossible for someone to say they walk close to God and have the fruit of the Holy Spirit and yet curses, steals, lies and many other wrongs, because then, they would not be walking with God and have the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    so here we see that walking close to God and bearing the fruit of the Spirit is a life long journey of a Christian. But let me ask, can a human walk with God? can a human draw close to the God in heaven? So, the Holy Spirit is within us to help us to walk this journey and to walk with God.

    John 14:25: These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    So, yes, the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is closely connected. but in order to bear the fruit, we need help from the Holy Spirit. And we know from the bible that, those who have received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongue.

    Ean's message and intent was not to change the bible, but to help us understand the message of it. When we walk with God, Satan tries to hinder us from walking with God and throw at us many temptations and get us away. Sometimes we may be weak, and we make mistakes, and even sin. But if we continue to rely on God and pray to Him for help, then we may have the strength to overcome, and not to sin anymore. To walk in the Spirit, it takes effort, it takes cultivation, simply believing is not enough to walk with the Spirit. We see the Gal 5:17 that: For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

    and in Gal 5: 19-21 tells us what the nature of the flesh is: Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    So in order to get away from these sinful things, we need to draw close to God, which is not a simply " I believe, therefore I and walking with the Spirit" it takes effort and prayer.

    So, my conclusion is, to have the Holy Spirit is important, but to bear fruit of the Holy Spirit is a process, not a sudden thing. For all those who believe, are they have love, peace, joy, kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness, faithfulness and self control?

    it is a process my friend, and in order to start this process, the Holy Spirit is here to help.
     
  4. Pach, I am well, thank you.

    I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I'm not agreeing with you and will explain why below. I will do it in a direct fashion, but don't read tone into it, it's more like a doctor telling you of something with not many emotions. We can disagree, that's fine, but I'd like to talk through it as much asw we can and see how much difference we can remove. ..



    There was no original question, there was an original declaration...... (besides there were 14 apostles)
    Believing that the receiving of the Holy Spirit is the prerequisite for entering heaven; and that speaking in tongues is the evidence of having received the Holy Spirit.

    t
    So, PETER isn't in heaven, great. When you go judging dead people's actions as sins, withoutknowing the whys you lose credibility. For one person it was a sin to eat meat, the other it wasn't. Perhaps the real issue isn't the denial part at all, you don't know. For you to presume to judge is.........?smug?

    NOTE, they didn't ask FOR the gift of tongues, it came UPON THEM, and wasn't in them. It laid OVER THEM like a fire, which is not the same as indwelling them. There were several types of "tongues" gifts, which one is THE one? The gift ot tongues isn't even the most important one according to Paul. So, why do you put so much into it? They received the Spirit either by divine gift, but we see most often by the laying on of hands. JESUS did miracles for a reason, to prove He was from God. Moses had the magic stick, the prophets had their prophecy, gideon had the battle of oddities that he won, these were gifts to specifiy that their message was from God. Miraclous gifts weren't given to everyone without a purpose. NOW, after Christ ascended, there was an urgency getting the Church established. It had to get wide, as well as deep fast to have a foundation established. It's entirely possible the gifts were very present at that time, to help establish the church.

    Consider, the gift of tongues is a communication gift. It's use is to carry a message to the people. Most people that use the gift in charismatic churches, in my experience use it to establish how great their relationship is with the Spirit. Jesus told the apostles they were blessed to believe those miracles and believe, but later people would be blessed more for not seeing them and believe. I have to ask you, why did GOD remove your blessing if you speak with tongues? Why do you have less than me who has no gift and has seen no miracles?

    Mat 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

    There is nothing in that verse that says ask for the gift. ANd the very thought that "GOD IS ON CALL" like santa claus is offensive to me. I'm not saying you have offended me, you aren't responsible for that thought, it was a thought before you were a thought to your parents.

    What it DOES say, is the Father will give you gifts. Matthew 5:48 Jesus shows the types of gifts this could reference, which were sunlight and rain, or the PROVIDENCE of a father to his child.


    If you were here with some earth changing, church changing message from God, he might give you those gifts as well, to show you were his messenger. But your implication of the spirit is that you get power. Not service, but it boosts your prestige, or authority, or claim to the Spirit, not that it serves God. That rings very false to me. Again, not that you are being deliberately false, but that what you have been taught is to believe in something false.

    Not according to the verse you gave us. God bestowed it upon people, or would depending on their needs. NOT that you pull up at the McGod drive through, ask for gifts, and Santa Claus/God at the window gives them to you WITH fries! Boo YAH!

    So if I find one sin in you, you will admit you don't walk in the Spirit. I agree with teh words here, and by agreeing I'm pretty sure you nor I have the Spirit indwelling us yet. I use gal 5:16 and 1 john 3:6 as my claims. HOWEVER, matt 5:18 shows the spirit can work ON US, before He is in us. The Spirit could very well be working on you but not yet be in you, yet HE would be leading you to the point where he WILL be in you.... no?

    Scripture says you are to be as spiritually mature as Jesus was on earth. If you are short of that, then I'd contend you aren't what yo uare supposed to be yet, and to stop pretending and get more serious in your walk. Scripture says if you walk BY the spirit, Peripateo Pneuma in Greek, literall walk spirit. It would seem to be not WITH the Spirit but BY the Spirit. BY does not mean beside, it means, well, "I got to Mickey Dees by the red Cadi". It was the vehicle for my transport. The SPIRIT is the vehicle and gets the credit for your walk at that point. You keep speaking of YOU being in control and asking for and getting more power and authority. Blessed are the poor in spirit, that means one who's spirit is dependent and relies on God, not one who is made strong and runs around bragging for God.



    ?????This vs says the Spirit will come and teach the Apostles. Are you the reincarnation of one of the Apostles? ????
    We know that happened in he first 50 years or so after Christ's death. We know it happened for the development of the Church, I know the Church is developed today, no matter how screwed up it has become. The pure message of GOd is established, that little book you keep quoting, so why would tongues be necessary, as it was in establishing the Church today, when the message is recorded and unchanging? We also know that many in the bible were showing other spiritual gifts, and not tongues. Your importance in tongues is not biblical based, but interprtationally based. It's eisegetical.

    Ok, I won't expound on this, but we greatly disagree here. Scripture doesn't say you can give into temptations if you walk by the spirit. It says you can not give in. Temptations from Satan strengthen your walk, but revealing your weakness, and building your dependance on God. God doesn't make you stronger and independent, but weaker and more dependant and through that you are stronger.



    And to put that 17 vs in perspective. we see that a person who is filled with the Spirit isn't in the flesh anymore. Romans 8:9. Col 2:11. So if you are walking by the Spirit, that flesh isn't there anymore, the Spirit won. Doesn't mean you won't be tempted. It means you will not give in when tempted. Heck Jesus was tempted.



    AMEN HERE!@!!!!! We agree fully and completely with this part. :!

    I agree with the last part as well. 100%. I don't agree that tongues is a help. In fact it's the opposite, it's a miracle gift which means the person receives less blessing, not more. The very use of it in the churches of Charismatic bent, USUALLY is the opposite of that.

    I have great Charismatic friends. I disagree and think they are whack, and they feel the same about me. But they are great friends. We trust God will sort it out and pick at each other freely when the topic comes up. I trust them and their sincerity in their beliefs. But, their beliefs doesn't make it so. There was a little movie called Birdie. GREAT SOUNDTRACK, the man believed he was a bird and could fly. So he jumped. Belief didn't do much for him. That's my illustration.

    The SPIRIT will first work on us, before indwelling us. That period of time will take as long as it will take, and will be different for each. When he change finally happens, and He goes from on you to in you, the change will be instantaneous. But to get there, will be a process. It will be both Monergistic and Synergistic in nature. The change will be complete, the one who is changed will have heart and mind changed by GOD not by self control. At least that's what scripture says. And I believe God is capable, don't you? I believe scripture shows clearly, and plainly that once there you not only will not sin, but can not sin. What is accredited for that lifestyle isn't the strength of the individual, but their poorness of Spirit, their dependance on God, and as John called it His seed, and Paul called it His Spirit, is what enables the event.

    That's our differences I think on this topic.

    So in a broad stroke we are on the same page, it's the Spirit. To the conservative evangelist I am Charismatic because of that belief. To the Charismatic I'm not, I'm misled because of my other beliefs on the topic.

    I'm the lone heretic. :)

    TY for the chat, hope it's felt as intended when you read and the chat progresses.
     
  5. I just realized that I posted Ean's original comment, so my top comment in that post is erroneous... I'll go back and review again and revise the first segment. Sorry, but at least I'm honest enough to admit when I screw up. :)
     
  6. Being entitled doesn't mean you have it yet. For all those that claim they have it when they are saved, this verse questions that. Romans 8:9 says straight out, BULL to that. Sometime after salvation you receive it, as you are entitled it, but you can't claim it by assuming, it's either there or not. I can claim I can fly, it doesn't mean I can fly.



     
  7. The obvious answer to this question is, the Spirit wasn't yet released on the world, so they couldn't receive it yet. Andwhen it was released on the world, hey were the first to receive it. And they didn't really believe until AFTER the Spirit, only then did things make sense to them..

    I challenge you to show me why you can claim they were praying in Acts two when the Spirit laid upon them and appeared to look like a tongue of fire on them. There is no claim made in scripture. You have to add the whole concept to the conversation.

    I hardly think it's a convincing argument to speak as if something were certainly there in Scripture when it's not even hinted at being there. It's rather unfair in the discusison as well.
     
  8. Receiving the Spirit IS important! All believers receive the Spirit!!

    To say that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation is wrong. It will cause some true believers to question their salvation.

    Tongues is only ONE of the gifts of the Spirit which not every believer will receive.

    It adds a requirement to believing in Jesus.
     
    Abba's child likes this.
  9. This is not meant as critical, just observational and provoking some thinking...

    But, the questions are WHEN after you believe, and what is belief. If people feel it's important to ANNOUNCE it, and that if you don't announce it you aren't Xian, such as some in other moments have implied here towards me, for example, then announcing it should have some verifiable exhibitions as proof of presence. And yet the verses that provide those verifiable exhibitions of proof, are denied as impossible.

    I agree with your comment, all believers receive it. I think people proclaim they believe out of hope, more than belief, MOST of the time.
    It's wrong exegetically as well, as scripture says many had other spiritual gifts and not tongues.
     

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