Immaculate Conception

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by MMurphy, Aug 6, 2014.

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  1. Of course not. Look what's happening right this moment, aren't YOU attempting to teach ME? And this is the problem, there is no humility, there is only arrogance, Christians approaching other Christians thinking they know better. And respectfully, you don't.

    I had the dubious benefit of seeing what you posted yesterday which was removed. It was entirely patronizing. You were trying to teach your VERSION of Christianity to someone who has already settled and decided for himself which is the correct one.

    What you write now is much tamer but I have certain problems with it:
    "Born again" means different things to different Christians, we've been over that already.
    "Saved" means different things to different Christians too. I don't believe we can pronounce ourselves "saved", I think only God can do that.
    How do you know I haven't studied it? You don't, do you?
     
  2. #402 JustPassingThru, Aug 9, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it your name is Larry?

    I prefer using real names, it seems to give the conversations a more friendly atmosphere and intimacy, a bonding occurs when we do that rather than just speaking to cyber space.

    Okay Larry, let's answer your question using the Word.

    First what is the New Testament?

    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33, Heb 10:16

    The Father is speaking, notice it is a unconditional covenant, God does all of the work and we do nothing, He will put His law inside of us and write them on our hearts,

    How is this accomplished?

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

    By the Holy Spirit, notice what Jesus says, the Holy Spirit will only speak to us of what Jesus has said.

    Couple that with,

    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jn 2:27

    John is telling us also it is only the Holy Spirit that can teach us, but there is a condition, we must abide in Him, not go looking to men to teach us.

    So what happens to us if we do go to men for teaching?

    1. We can resist what the Holy Spirit is teaching/telling us, because born again believers have a free will. Acts 7:51
    2. Which causes the Holy Spirit to be grieved Eph 4:20 because we don't listen to him, which results in our walking in the flesh as carnal Christians manifesting the works of the flesh. Gal 5:19-21
    3. Which will ultimately quench the Holy Spirit's voice in our spirit. 1 Thes 5:19
    4. Then we are open to deception, why because we don't love the Word of God. 2 Th 2:10

    And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2Ti 2:24-26

    So putting it all together, born again believers have the Holy Spirit living inside of them, it's His job to teach us only the things that He has heard Jesus say, so, to answer your question, when the Holy Spirit is teaching through the gift of teaching in the Church He is simultaneously giving witness to our spirits it's from Him and it's the Word Jn 1:14, if it's just the teaching of man then He is telling us, in our spirit, that is is not from Him, ...however, if we have quenched the Holy Spirit then will will not hear His voice and will fall into deception, if we repent, and that repentance will always be at the point of where we resisted what the Spirit was telling us, the communion with the Father and the Son will be restored. 1 Jn:1:3

    Blessings,

    Gene
     
  3. Okay, your turn, tell me what born again is to you and saved and use Scriptural references to authenticate it.

    And please tell me what the doctrine and works of the Nicolaitans are if you know.

    And please, change how you write because you are coming across to me as very aggressive and this is a Friendly Christian Forum.

    In His Love,

    Gene
     
  4. That is excellent Bible talk Gene.
     
  5. Haha, Major coined 'Larry' as a nickname for me. It's not my name, you are are most welcome to call me Larry.

    I appreciate the response, Gene. And generally, I really agree with this. However, I this isn't what I asked.
     

  6. "The Holy Spirit is indeed the only source of direction. But who does the Holy Spirit speak to? Clearly, all who listen. But most of us are claiming we know exactly what the Holy Spirit means when we read the Scriptures or when we pray. However, we still disagree. So who is misunderstand the Holy Spirit? Who has the right interpretation and how do we know? If we say we know because the Holy Spirit told us, then we're arguing in a circle. If we say because the Bible says so, then we're still arguing in a circle because we're all using Scripture -- we just disagree on interpretation--we all agree unanimously on the words.

    So the question is how each of us know the right interpretation? How do each of us know the Holy Spirit is saying exactly what we think He says when the other person is reserving it but saying something different?"


    I didn't answer your question, what part did I not answer?

    Or better yet, ask the question again.

    I have to go to work, there is a problem at the apartments where I work, be back n a couple of hours.

    Gene
     

  7. You didn't answer any of it. You tried to, and I appreciate it, but I think you misunderstood what I was asking -- either that or you were arguing in a circle. It was one or the other but it wasn't neither.

    I don't mean to ask this rudely, but I'll use you as an example for this since I know you're a Christian, as am I: If we are both Bible Christians and believe in the ability of the Holy Spirit to speak to us, why do we disagree? Why do I think you're wrong and why do you think I'm wrong if we believe the Holy Spirit is never wrong and every word of the Bible is infallibly true?

    If you can, can you simply your answer? No need to try and fit everything into one post--the less flooding of text, the easier we can understand each other.
     
  8. The only reason I am adding one more post here is duo that my perception in God that many here are being honest in your analisys and able to accept the truth...the word of God....

    Even that, are too many subjects being adressed now....I will try to be very resumed....not as back and forth...lol...

    I only adressed the main topic at first.....Imaculated Conception and arguments related to it...

    Queen of Haven from ex-cathedra...etc.....no direct reference to Mary as such in the bible(salve one interpretation could be used, but this if absouluted taken out of context and not direct reference) Clement of Alexandria said everyone was sinner including Mary...but only Jesus had not sin...This is absolute biblical...Can you find a single word in the bible the says Mary was sinniless? Just mention Clement becouse you mention his name...

    You mention David mother as Queen..ok.....have you ever seen a jew ofering a service to her name? Or prying to her? did you ever saw a jew on their knees before a statue of David? Or Moses?

    Have ask your self why they do not do that? Did you ever try to argue that its only venneration with a jews?...lol

    If we could earsase the pages of church history, them, It could be mere my opinion, but...I could bring tousands of more of factual crazy, absurd deviations of the bible made up in church history...

    Did not the puritans burn witches on stick? Brutal error.....

    Now, I want to include my whole view as in relation to the 7 churches of revelation or in regards of the prostitute babylon, I dont think there a way to separate them....lol

    Revalation 17...

    6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

    When I saw her, I marveled greatly. 7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

    For me, verse 6 is the most reveling.....John was appal...He could not understand why the Bride was killing saints...lol...crazy...so by parts:

    Interpretation for the 7 Churches:

    It makes more sense that are related to periods/phases of the Churh as a whole and not to specific denomination...and here is why I say that with a pretty solid conclusion...

    We are at a new "dispansation" lets say....but if we look at the OT and observe specialy; I and II Kings as exemple, when God refer to the 10 tribes of North(Israel) as the prostitute(most of time)...He does not so offen to Judah...what it means to us?!

    A clear division in th kingdon, but God ALWAYS cosider them both as HIS PEOPLE...for me it freezes my mind..lol....but it is true!

    What are their sins...go read! Too many!

    We tend to say "My church is more rigth than yours"...but clearly God's does not see that way....just read the bible...

    He brings judment to the practices when they are out of His word, but becouse of His name...He calls all His people....

    I my opnion...7 Churches = 7 Periods

    Denominationatly divided, I dont think so. I dont think the bible have support to that...

    Denomationaly speaking....we all time to time if not carefull became prostitutes....some times we persiste in error, make new ones and so on....due to pressure, miss leading piety, power, money, imorality, false love...etc...

    Be fair and imagine if the reform did not taken place...we would not have this discoussion! Imagine if the Synod was rulling until today?! Insane!

    So, my opinion...We are one church! But we act as prostitutes sometimes, and individualy, we will respond to that...

    If you understand these acts as a barrier to your spiritual growth in your denomination as I did and many do....CHANGE it! Or you will be foud in debit!

    I wanted GOD and His unpassing word...for me was impossible to stay...

    Hope that I helped....its not about a denominational flag....its about God and His word....

    God bless!
     

  9. I think it raised a new topic: Authority to Teach, that is: the Magisterium….

    Question now: is the Authority to Teach given directly to the Apostles can be passed on?

    By Succession....makes sense to me: from the Teacher to Apostles/Disciples/Student to becoming a Teacher to student and so on... but critical part here : is consistency, adherence to teaching of the Teacher...

    Biblical or extra-biblical I am interested to hear as well…

    IMO:

    It cannot be achieve by Vote…. Vote is more on leadership, stewardship….

    Authority to Teach is more on showed by consistency and adherence to the teachings, and i think it is what you mention as we all have in common...

    Related verse to consider:

    Galatians 1:8New King James Version (NKJV)
    8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
     
  10. We are heading in the right direction now :)

    I'm about to step out, but I'll give a very brief, general, and short response:

    Church authority, which Christ gave to His apostles, can be passed down through Church authority. In John 20, Jesus told His disciples to receive the Holy Spirit as it came down upon them. And He followed it up that just as the Father sent Him, so He now sends them. They went off as bishops in different churches (today we call them diocese), an they trained and ordained other bishops (these being the early Church fathers). And this continued on and still continues today. This morning, I was at priest ordination -- this is a process where, through divine authority God gave, the successors act in carrying on what Christ started--that being the Church.
     
  11. Before I do this, let me ask you a couple of things:

    1) When I give you my answer, will it give you the satisfaction that I understand the matter? Keep in mind you already know that I have obtained my Christian education from the very sources you are calling evil.
    2) Why are you focusing on "Born again" and "saved" as the two factors that matter the most?
    3) Wby do you request scriptural reference from a Christian who is not Bible-only? Are you not in fact insisting that I use your Christian rules rather than my own?

    The point I'm trying to make here is that you are trying to paint me into a corner. Any answer I give you will be something you try to use against me because it doesn't fit your fundamentalist Christian framework.

    To put things in perspective here, in your messages to Lysander, who is one of the most knowledgeable people on matters of Christianity I have ever encountered on a Christian forum, you spoke to him like you were a Rhodes Scholar and he was an infant. We are all Christians here on equal footing and deserved to be treated and spoken to as such. So if you find my tone aggressive, rather than suggest I tone it down, maybe ask yourself WHY your message was removed. Ask yourself WHY people are getting edgy. A little advice for you - a little humility goes a very long way.
     

  12. Okay, I'll be frank, please don't take offense, you are saying that two people can believe they are taught by the Holy Spirit and believe the same verse to mean two different things, is that correct?

    If so here is the simple, frank answer, one of them hasn't been taught by the Holy Spirit and being taught by man is deceived (that is what I tried to show you in my post, I'm just putting the pieces of the puzzle together to make it easier to see), John tells us the Word is God and that same Word became a man, not men, there is only one Jesus-God-Man and there is only one Truth for the Holy Spirit to teach.

    Again, please don't take offense, I think you understand my sincerity, but you come to a Protestant forum and want to talk about your Catholic beliefs, personally I'm wondering why?

    I love you brother with the Love of Christ, but I would never go to a Catholic forum and talk about my doctrinal beliefs. and besides you asked the question what we believe but you don't want to receive it or accept.

    May I have your permission to ask you a frank question about something you said in this thread?

    In His Love,

    Gene
     
    Major likes this.
  13. Yes condescension' is rife in these threads.....I think 'patronizing attitudes could be added to the list of bad flavours here too.
    :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: I think I'll file that one away for future use.
     
  14. Yep, and guess which one of those you are?
    A PROTESTANT forum? It's called "Christian Forum Site." Surely you know that Catholics are Christians?
     
  15. And here is a direct question to you friend, why are you here, what have you brought with you to edify us, to build us up, to bring unity amongst the brethren in the faith, that glorifies our Lord in this forum?

    Blessings,

    Gene
     

  16. Catholics are welcome on this forum, so don't speak as if they aren't. This is a Christian forum for Christians, and that includes Catholics.
     
  17. What are you trying to do? There is no reason for another member to have to answer this question, and it's off topic.
     
  18. ABOSULETLY!!!!

    Then they need to learn the lesson from our brother Glomung, He doesn't bring up these kind of controversial subjects, and before you go any farther why don't you start a poll and see how many members here do consider this a Protestant forum and not a Catholic forum.

    Blessings,

    Gene
     
    Major likes this.
  19. #420 JustPassingThru, Aug 10, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014

    Ummm, ...because it's Biblical?


    AND, since I see you are now on staff, may I suggest you reread the Christian Forum Site Statement of Faith and Mission,

    and here is a list of rules that have broken in this Thread alone, why don' you censure those that broke them?

    2.2b
    3.1
    3.2
    3.2c
     
    Major and calvin say Amen and like this.
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