Icons and Prayer Ropes???

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by ABabeInChrist, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. It is not always easy to see and understand why the Lord instructed certain things from time to time, yet condemned them at other times.
    In the case of the fiery serpent Moses was instructed to make and set it on a pole, we are not told if the serpent was 'speared' or just sitting sort of, or twisted as in the way the modern day medical symbol is made.

    What I am seeing in this account is that there is a vast difference between doing what the Lord commands and doing as we please.
    What I mean is that for me to go and make a copper figurine of a snake on a pole and attempt to use it as a cure aid for sick and dying people would be so wrong I could write a novel about it.....yet Moses did it at the Lord's command and it worked..........then
    Is this any different from Joshua marching around Jericho until the walls collapsed? Should we do the same to a city we don't like these days?
    Then, in Exo 17:6. Moses was instructed to strike a certain rock and it yielded water...that was at a place called Meribah. Then when Moses disobeyed the Lord at the second Meribah, or much more likely at Meribah the second time, Num 20:11. though the waters came, Moses did not do as the Lord commanded. Instead he did a 'Frank Sinatra' on the rock at a very great personal loss.
    I don't see that the bronze serpent is any kind of mandate for us to make crucifixes and hold them up high.
    Relentless likes this.
  2. Well said.
  3. I just looked at the passage again and the message I received was that like the snakes, sin is attacking us and will kill us spiritually. We need to look at what our sin represents, just like looking at the representation of the snake on the pole. This is one of the ways the Spirit can convict us of our depravity and make us ready to accept Christ as our Savior. If we can't see our own sin, usually because of our self will is oblivious to it, then we cannot ask for forgiveness and have the healing process begin.
    I see it also as a test of faith. Will you do as the Lord asks, even if it seems as silly as looking at a statue of a snake? Power of healing comes from the faith in believing God.
  4. I want to thank everyone that commented on my post about the serpent on the pole. I am a little sorry that it took us off topic concerning objects of spiritual significance including Icons, beads, etc, etc. It was a sincere request, but I should have put it in a separate thread.

    I am a little more comfortable with that passage now that I can get past the image of a serpent (often a symbol of evil) being used to help believers. I'm sure that with prayer and study, I'll fully come to terms.

    Thanks again.
    Relentless likes this.
  5. It was not off topic, it was about things made in the likeness of other things and the risk of worshiping them as idols.
  6. The reason I bumped this thread up is well,..... sort of, I dunno:)
    Recently I have had two dreams, (nightmares?) that were essentially the same.
    In these dreams, I was someplace with many 'off white' buildings all of these buildings had statues depicting Jesus.
    The nearest building, (maybe a chapel or similar) had this rather big crucifix with a figure representing Jesust on it.

    The last dream had the added bit that I was conscious of this thread and that I should post something in it, but as dreams come and go there was no ready rhyme or reason to it. So I posted something that was on my mind anyway.
    Perhaps Target_Hunter, if you have been blessed by any of the various posts in this thread, that may have been the reason this thread topic was brought to your attention...who knows? just a thought.
  7. They had to look intently on the staff. the Hebrew shows they could just not glance at the staff.

    The serpent Was made of bronze, in complete control and the serpent bites caused lots of havoc.

    We could say the serpent represents Satans defeat who causes lots of sickness. He came to kill, steal and destroy. As we lift up Jesus as Moses lifted up the serpent.

    Joh 3:14 kjv+ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    I could go into a long thing about the curse of the law. The only reason Jesus came was to destory the works of the devil...... (The main reason was not to save us poor sinners, that was an effect)

    However, the most simple explination is that the snake on the pole was only used for healing snake bites, and the people so spiritualy dense needed something connected to being bitten and have faith to be healed.

    I got bit by a poisonios snake, I look at the bronze snake on the pole and Moses said I would be healed.

    God changed Abrams Name to Abraham (The Father of many nations) so everywhere he went, it was ingrained in him that he is the Father of many Nations.

    So I think best not to connect and read to much in to the snake on the pole but as a means of helping the folks get in faith to get healed.

    A snake bit me, and a snake on a pole heals me.

    I am pretty sure it was just that simple.
  8. I once had two salt pots and not liking to hunt for the salt when needed always kept them in a certain cupboard.
    One day one of the pots was broken and discarded. Sometime later I needed some salt and so went looking in the cupboard for the salt. It is not a big cupboard. Just one shelf and not too high. I could see everything in there and nothing was hid from my eyes. But I could not find the salt. But I knew it was there so I kept looking, a bird early in the morning cannot see the worm but knows it is there so keeps looking.
    But no matter how long I looked I could not see the salt.
    God had mercy on me as often he does and helped me see or understand that what I was looking for, what was in my imagination was the broken salt pot!
    One that understanding I rejected the broken salt pot in my imagination and replaced it with the unbroken pot and looked for that.
    At once and it was immidiately I saw the salt pot. It was not hidden it was not right at the back but at eye level in the very front of the shelf right in front of my eyes.
    The truth of the matter was that because I had a wrong picture or image imagination it literally blinded me to the truth that was right in front of my eyes.
    Truly the devil has blinded the eyes of some that they see not nor uderstand and be saved.
    In Christ
  9. Yes, both the use of icons and Rosaries are wrong, as people are taught erroneously that these things have power in them and in their use as ways to entreat God and to receive from Him. Not only that, but these things interfere in the intimate Father-child relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
  10. #150 LysanderShapiro, Jul 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
    With all due respect, those of us who do pray the rosary or accept the use of other sacramentals don't believe that these items themselves have power -- that would be superstitious. We believe power only comes from God.

    Although, some people do misuse sacramentals and treat them as if they are superstitious fortunes, which is totally wrong of them of course. For instance, when people bury St. Joseph statues upside down in order to sell their homes...that's clearly a superstitious act. Pretty evil to do so.

    A proper use of a sacramental would be like what you would find in Acts 19:12, John 9:6, etc. Each of these things aren't superstitious -- they are physical items that were used as blessings to others through the power of God.

    It's your choice if you choose not to accept this, but just understand that this is the proper understanding of these things, not superstition.
  11. Matthew 6:7
    “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.
  12. Yes, vain repetition is spoken against in the Scriptures. However, prayer in persistence isn't. Remember that Our Lord also prayed the same prayer over and over. We also do this on Sundays when we sing hymns to God -- these hymns are repetitive, but not done in vain repetition.

    But that's another subject. We're talking about sacramentals.
  13. I am not about to argue this with you, but the rosary is based on Marian worship, and at the same time it encourages people in vain repetitious prayers. God's heart is blessed by a heart-felt, earnest prayer in our own words, our heart seeking His. He is our Father, and longs for an intimate relationship with each one of us as His children. Do you speak to your own dad by reciting repeated prayers by rote by counting beads? It is all in vain and negated, especially when Mary is addressed.
  14. #154 LysanderShapiro, Jul 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
    You are very persistent in telling me that I am doing it wrong and that even that Catholics and others who pray it are doing it wrong since we do not do this.

    I think I've mentioned this in here about a million times, so count this as one-million and one...We oppose Marian worship. In fact, we despise it because it is false love. True love is worship to God and love for others because of God. You seem very insistent that the Catholic Church isn't living up to what you think they should live up to, which is false worship. Very ironic.

    Understand the origins of praying with beads. While pagans have also adapted this, its origins isn't pagan -- it was a common practice from many groups, but Christians included. It originated with Pader nosters (latin for Our Father beads). Before beads were strung together, the early Church used to count pebbles in saying the Our Father prayer, as a promise they made to God. Before that, the ancient Jews did similar prayer in counting pebbles to God.

    I do write my grandfather regularly, and often times, I repeat the same thing. When my wife almost lost her mother, I remember her repeating, "I love you" over and over. Not vain repetition -- persistence.

    Was Jesus wrong for praying "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will" multiple times? (We know that he prayed this at least three times from Matthew 26:44).

    God wants us to pray to Him in sincerity and in reverence. This is what it means to be heart-felt. It may mean speaking our own words, but it may not be. For instance, we have the Our Father that we pray -- these aren't our words, but we speak them to God in sincerity, applying them as our own. Some people really have difficulty in praying in their own words, whether it is because of their nervousness or if they are illiterate or whathaveyou. Jesus taught us how to pray, and while we are always welcome and free to pray each prayer in our own way, we aren't restricted from praying precisely in the words he used.

    I don't know if you knew this, but I'm a stutterer. I stutter. Sometimes I have a very difficult time getting words out. Sometimes I hit severe blocks and can't speak at all. It's especially difficult when I am speaking off the cuff. This is why I often use prayers that have already been written or said, at least when I pray out loud. Although when I pray in my head, when they are my own personal words, even then it's very simple: "Lord, it's me -- Larry. I love and thank you for all of your blessings. Please help me and have mercy on me. Amen."

    So let me keep this short.
    1) Praying the same prayer isn't automatically vain repetition since Jesus did it.
    2) Using a counter to keep track goes far back to the ancient Jews and continued on in the Early Church.
    3) The Rosary is not used to worship Mary. Whether you agree or disagree with using the Rosary, that is officially not its purpose.
    4) The Catholic Church opposes Marian worship very strongly. Whether you agree or disagree with Catholicism, that is still the official position it holds.
    5) Saying the same prayer over again can be just as heart-felt as a one-hour off the cuff prayer. You cannot know what it is anyone's heart when they pray, whether it was repeating a prayer or saying a prayer in one's own words.

    I don't mean to argue, but I have not once said anything about your beliefs. Not only that, but I haven't even pushed anything on you saying "You believe this, which is wrong." I'm not telling you what you have to believe, I am only telling you the facts. And ultimately, the fact is you have your information wrong regarding the rosary and what Catholics believe. Why? Why are you so insistent on doing this? Don't you know that not all of us even adhere to the same doctrine? This forum is not designed for this purpose. The purpose of the forum is for ecumenical discussion. While we may hit bumps and see where we differ, why have you made it your mission to overstep ecumenism to talk about something with which you don't even have your facts straight?
    I say this kindly, please stick to the forum rules.
  15. Opposing Marian worship and then going right ahead and doing something that points directly to Marian worship is the issue.
  16. That's the first misunderstanding; you think it's something that goes directly to Mary and bypasses God. The point is that nothing like this is to ever go over God and to someone else. Please read the entire comment and, my advice is to do full research on the subject. Be responsible.

    It's OK if you choose to reject it, but if you want to reject it, first know what it is you are rejecting -- not a perverse form.

    Lastly, remember that this is an ecumenical forum and respect the forum guides.
  17. My research has led me to the inception of the rosary, and it is clearly to do with Marian worship.


    This is a Christian forum, and as such, I will always honour Christ and His word, first and foremost.
  18. The EWTN and Rosary Center websites say nothing of Marian worship and even both mention its use to meditate on Christ (which is the primary use -- this is what the mysteries are -- they focus on the Gospel). However, the Let God Be True website jumps over that and assumes that it is Marian worship.

    Euphemia, the ironic thing is that you and Catholicism actually agree 100% that worship is only reserved for God. the divide is that you believe that Marian devotion only equals Marian worship, and it doesn't. It's proper form never will.

    If we're exchanging websites, here are a few more...

    Notice I am not posting anything anti-Protestant. I am not anti-protestant, but I am Anti anti-Catholic, ...AS IS THIS FORUM. Yes, this is a Christian forum, but it is fueled by ecumenism. Ecumenism is the key word. It means making our Christian commonalities the foundation of discussion.
  19. We are not created or required to bring devotion to another created human being...namely, Mary. The prayers that go along with the rosary are in fact prayers of devotion and are directed to Mary, along with petitions. Fatima also figures prominently, which is not a work of God, but of the devil.

    So, the entire idea of the rosary has no place in the Christian's life.
  20. We honor our parents, don't we? Or our spouses? Jesus honored His mother. So of course we do. So yes, we of course honor Mary, but we do not worship her. That is reserved explicitly for God.

    We have had so many discussion on Marian devotion in here, and I've offered passage after passage after passage in the Bible where it is seen -- from Gabriel to Elizabeth to John to Jesus. If you choose that Marian devotion is not your thing, that is entirely your hang-up. But understanding that when we use the word devotion or honor, we are not meaning worship. We don't even want to use the adore for anyone but God because even that is treading murky waters. So if you want to reject it, reject it by all means, but stop insisting it's one thing when it's not.

    And once again, anti-Catholicism is not welcomed here. Nor is anti-Protestantism.

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