Icons and Prayer Ropes???

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by ABabeInChrist, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. The Bible does not "represent " something that it is not .
    It IS what is called the Word of God . Inspired by God and written by men of God.
    Graven images that are carried about and paraded or hung on walls or statues venerated are not inspired by God .But at best by men and worse by the devil. To equate idols and icons with the Bible is absurd. If I remember correctly the people who love idols the most are the ones who burn people the most .

    in Christ
  2. You have once again ignored the fact (before already mentioned ) that they were not seen by any body save the high priest and that only once a year for a very short time on the day of atonement .For when carried the ark was covered and when not was in the most Holy place and seen by none but one .
    Er they were not statues either .But were on the lid .

    For God knows right well how the heart of man is prone to idol worship.
    So no oen is justified by filling a building with idols .
    The commandment is also not to bow down and worship them or venerate them .
    The high priest was too busy ensuring that they and the people would live in the presence of God .

    in Christ
  3. Agree! I also encouraged the poster to give us the Scriptures he was posting....but to no avail.
  4. I shall endeavour to do so when I can .But when I "quote scripture " they are not usually obscure passages but to most students well known and if not well know can easily be found and the context of them be established also which I cannot with time and space do here .
    While I am not setting myself up as anything .I note that Paul did not do so . But took it for granted or expected them to know the scriptures he quoted . which he did often.
    Is this not a doctrinal forum? Then I expect most if not all to know the scriptures well enough and if not to be able to find them to verify their accuracy .
    I actually then I did quote the scripture I was quoting . What you mean was the chapter and verse of it .
    I do not promise to always do it .But will when I can .
    I should as well thank you for quoting the scripture I refered to out of memory . For you not only confirmed the truth of the matter independently from me .But encouraged me in then process.

    in Christ
  5. Gerald.........there are lots and lots of people on this web site. Some are experts, some are Bible students and some are very new at the Christian faith. YES, it is the "Doctrinal" part of the forum but that is not much of an excuse to keep you from telling us what Scriptures you are drawing from. It is polite and correct to tell us and not leave us guessing as some Scriptures are recorded in different places.

    We all need to keep in mind that it is the "New one in Christianity" that we are effecting and need to help.

    It is not a matter of "if I have the time" I will post the Scriptures I refer to.. IT is YOUR responsibility to do so my brother for those who are trying to learn and grow. I am not trying to be mean spirited or corrective to you in any way as I have my own problems.

    It is not up to me or someone else to KNOW what you are referring to, IT IS UP TO YOU! Please take the time so as to help all who would want to consider your thoughts. and communicate with you.
  6. #126 LysanderShapiro, Nov 8, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2014
    Gerald, you're using the words image and idol interchangeably. I suspect you don't worship photographs of your parents or spouse or kids.

    We're happy you're here, Gerald. Nevertheless, a discussion is difficult to continue if you keep dismissing what is said prior.

    Many of us here do hold different doctrinal (and even dogmatic) positions depending. Everyone here it seems does hold to the overall Christian faith, but not everyone is in sync with one another. Some of us here are Non-Denominational. Some are Calvinist. Some are Catholic. Some are Evangelical. Some are Fundamentalist. I'm not sure if you knew of the hodge-podge in this forum.
    Major likes this.
  7. Taken note .

    In Christ
    Major likes this.
  8. Do not make any graven image ........of ANYTHING and then bow down and worship it . I care not what in theory people say they are not. I simply believe what God says about religious imagery and the like .
    God does not say though shalt not make any graven image . FULL STOP. So your initial argument is spurious .
    I endeavour to always 'answer ' any argument that either opposes mine or objection to it or in the espousal of a "position" that I cannot find in the Bible as being justifiable .To that end I seek always to present a biblical argument either to uphold defend or undermine .
    I do not doubt that many people hold many different 'positions' or interpretations and other variations of the same .
    But I also am aware that the Bible and in particular the teaching of Ephesians would have each and every believer to eb of the same mind and think the same thing or have a common understanding of the scripture s.
    In its own words "A unity of THE faith" Eph 2? If faith comes by hearing and by that understanding of the Word of God ,Then there needs must be a unity of understanding also and see or understand the same things .
    What position then is that ? or what interpretation? etc . It can only be that of Gods or of HIM "who knows the mind of the Lord" and" the deep things of God " Who was promised "to lead us into all truth"
    In this regard as to icons statues and graven religious images of any sort. There is absolutely no justification for them. and they do harm both to a persons faith in God and their walk with God .
    For what point is it when the scripture says "that all scripture is inspired by God and is good for "correction ,reproof and instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16.When everyone is happy not to be corrected or reproved or instructed in righteousness and for the sake of peace are happy to discuss without getting anywhere at all .Which will mean that it will all slide downward ,Not upward .
    The Lord is coming soon .That is beyond dispute . It is my conviction he ahs already as it were left the building . Even as the sun leaves it chamber as the groom Psalm 19:5
    If the church and you assume all who are in this "hodge podge " and who can say ? are in the church .Then such a state of affairs cannot continue and still say it is ready for the coming of the lord .

    There will be no graven images in heaven .No cherubim hid from view as lifeless carvings . or moulded in metal . They will be those who with 6 wings cry one to another Holy HOLY HOLY is the Lord .Living and alive to the fact that God IS Holy and will not give His glory to another .
    Indeed have you ever considered who the groom is?
    is he not He who when John was on the Isle called Patmos heard a voice behind him and turned and saw the Lord.
    Is not He the groom?
    If then what he saw was the groom .What manner must the Bride be of?
    Of the same mind .Same disposition and the same goals and will be leaning not upon her own understanding but leaning on the arm of her beloved " Solomon 8:5 and Solomon 6;10

    in Christ
  9. We're at an impasse and not really going anywhere, are we?
    It's alright. We've had about 5 other forums in regards to this specific subject. I appreciate hearing your honest opinion on the matter.
  10. Excuse the delay in replying please.
    What is shaping my thinking here is that special knowledge must be imparted to workmen by the Lord if their work is to please Him; consider..
    Exo 35:29. All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.
    Exo 35:30. Then Moses said to the people of Israel, "See, the LORD has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
    Exo 35:31. and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, with intelligence, with knowledge, and with all craftsmanship,
    Exo 35:32. to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze,
    Exo 35:33. in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, for work in every skilled craft.
    Exo 35:34. And he has inspired him to teach, both him and Oholiab the son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan.
    Exo 35:35. He has filled them with skill to do every sort of work done by an engraver or by a designer or by an embroiderer in blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, or by a weaver—by any sort of workman or skilled designer.

    Num 8:4. And this was the workmanship of the lampstand, hammered work of gold. From its base to its flowers, it was hammered work; according to the pattern that the LORD had shown Moses, so he made the lampstand.

    So in the case of the cherubs that were crafted to be a part of the Ark, special knowledge must have been given in order that the work would be pleasing to the Lord. After all, we don't see cherubs walking/flying around to know what they look like. ,

    Now can we honestly say that since those days, any artist, sculptor etc has been specially empowered by the Lord such that his craft would be pleasing and honoring to the Lord? The precedent was established for Moses and Aaron etc. so can we deviate from that direct divine tuition?
  11. I understand. I disagree with your interpretation of course.
  12. NOPE .

    For as it has bene said many times already . Those things that people use to justify what cannot be justified .Was NEVER seen by the congregation or by anybody save the high priest once a year and for a very short time . For God knows how wicked the heart of man is and is so easily led to idolitory .

    in Christ
  13. It might also reflect the growing antiChrist influence being exerted by the festering muslim community in that area.
    It seems the offense taken is not about icons as such, it is about anything to do with Christianity.
    It is sheerest folly to think that the removal of an item designed (rightly or wrongly) to draw people to think of Christ will in any way appease muslims. Only the complete subjugation of everybody to their sad religion will sate their appetite for domination.
  14. The wife wanted a picture of Jesus for a poem she had written. Just Jesus in the background.

    I asked her.......... How you know that is what Jesus is suppose to look like?

    She went on to tell me that Kenneth Hagain saw Jesus and this person saw Jesus and described him the same.

    So My next question was... They might have spoken to Jesus, but they did not take a picture or have him sit still for a painting. From their description you might make a composite sketch much like a police sketch.

    Carnal minded folks back in Jesus time had to go to some temple, or do some other ritual because they had no Spirit of God in them. Jesus said the time comes we worship God in Spirit and truth.

    Crosses, statues, pictures, all nonesense for the carnal minded. Things made with the hands of man should have no part in praying or worshiping God.

    I would hate to think I could be out somewhere, and suddenly needed the Power of God, but wouldent you know it? I left my Jesus picture at home.........

    I am a child of the Most High, My Father always hears me. Promised he would never leave or fosake me.

    God with me always............ What the heck we need crosses, pictures, statues, and candles for?
  15. I do not have any problem with things one may use to remind himself of things above. I do sometimes get sad when someone believes that the object itself has "special powers" (like splinters of the TRUE CROSS).

    One piece of scripture I have wondered about is Numbers 21:8

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. - King James Version​

    Does anyone have an insight concerning His choice of having people look toward a serpent on a pole?
  16. Just off the top of my head, what comes to mind is that Jesus used that incident to illustrate what he had come to do. If people looked to him "lifted up" as the people of Israel had looked in faith at the serpent "lifted up", they would be saved.
  17. #137 Siloam, Feb 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2015
    I am not really as much wondering about Jesus's referencing this (John 3:14) to allude to His crucifixion, I am more concerned about the imagery of a snake (which is often associated with evil) being used to give men hope & healing.

    I might have understood if God had instructed Moses to place a lamb on the pole.
  18. Wasn't it because the people were being bitten by venomous snakes as a judgment?
  19. That is why a remedy was needed, but the people being bit did not need to look to (and trust?) another serpent.

    When I am overwhelmed, which can be a reminder that I am wandering afar, I need to look back to God, not concentrate on an image of my affliction.
  20. Right, but what I'm saying is that Jesus used it as an analogy, and no analogy is meant to apply in every detail. The people were actually trusting God when they looked (only once) at the serpent, and when people look to Jesus (only once, not having to constantly be saved), they are also trusting God.

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