Icons and Prayer Ropes???

These are called "sacramentals." They are physical elements that allow one's heart and mind to be directed to God. Hymns are sacramentals. Crosses are sacramentals. Portraits of Jesus are sacramentals.

And prayer ropes (like rosaries and paternosters) are sacramentals since they are items that allow one to engage in prayer mentally and physically. As one can be spiritually touched when they hear church music or walk into a beautiful chapel.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
These are called "sacramentals." They are physical elements that allow one's heart and mind to be directed to God. Hymns are sacramentals. Crosses are sacramentals. Portraits of Jesus are sacramentals.

And prayer ropes (like rosaries and paternosters) are sacramentals since they are items that allow one to engage in prayer mentally and physically. As one can be spiritually touched when they hear church music or walk into a beautiful chapel.
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And yet so many seem to want to call this idolatry. I've tried so many times to understand why, but it has to be so very obvious that these objects are not being worshiped, that I just give up.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
And yet so many seem to want to call this idolatry. I've tried so many times to understand why, but it has to be so very obvious that these objects are not being worshiped, that I just give up.
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I think when people hear about icons and sacramentals without any true education on them and their history, it can lead people to think of people who worship idols and icons. And I'd be concerned of people worshiping them too rather than using them as a way to bring our thoughts and hearts to God.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I think when people hear about icons and sacramentals without any true education on them and their history, it can lead people to think of people who worship idols and icons. And I'd be concerned of people worshiping them too rather than using them as a way to bring our thoughts and hearts to God.
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Well, the thing is, it isn't the stone age anymore where people DID worship stone idols and rocks and trees and so on. That alone I would have thought would have been enough. But I've spoken to some people who suggest that we worship TV celebrities, money, cars, etc., that these things have taken the place of God. I disagree but nothing seems stranger to me than the idea of worshiping a statue in this day and age.
 
Here are some passages which describe idolatry.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Romans 1: 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

So greed is an idol, greed is connected and caused by selfishness, so selfishness is idolatry. Worshiping and serving created things instead of God is idolatry.
So, TV celebrities, money, cars, etc., can be idols when they are more important to you than God. Just examine where you spend your extra money and time. Do you have an expensive house to which an excessive amount of your money goes to maintain? What is most important to you?

If you are a husband, what would you think if your wife placed a picture of an old boyfriend on the mantle or dresser? She does not 'bow down' to the picture, so why should you be jealous? What would you do?

If you are a wife, what would you think, if your husband had a female work associate's photograph on the wall in his work area? He does not 'bow down' to it, so why would you be jealous? What would you do about it?

What do you think God thinks when we place "things" as a priority of importance?
 
Big Moose said:
Here are some passages which describe idolatry.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Romans 1: 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

So greed is an idol, greed is connected and caused by selfishness, so selfishness is idolatry. Worshiping and serving created things instead of God is idolatry.
So, TV celebrities, money, cars, etc., can be idols when they are more important to you than God. Just examine where you spend your extra money and time. Do you have an expensive house to which an excessive amount of your money goes to maintain? What is most important to you?

If you are a husband, what would you think if your wife placed a picture of an old boyfriend on the mantle or dresser? She does not 'bow down' to the picture, so why should you be jealous? What would you do?

If you are a wife, what would you think, if your husband had a female work associate's photograph on the wall in his work area? He does not 'bow down' to it, so why would you be jealous? What would you do about it?

What do you think God thinks when we place "things" as a priority of importance?
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I don't worship my car, my TV, celebrities, money, etc. because I don't turn to those things for my salvation. That is the key, and that is the only thing that matters or SHOULD matter.
 
Big Moose said:
Here are some passages which describe idolatry.

Colossians 3: 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Romans 1: 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

So greed is an idol, greed is connected and caused by selfishness, so selfishness is idolatry. Worshiping and serving created things instead of God is idolatry.
So, TV celebrities, money, cars, etc., can be idols when they are more important to you than God. Just examine where you spend your extra money and time. Do you have an expensive house to which an excessive amount of your money goes to maintain? What is most important to you?

If you are a husband, what would you think if your wife placed a picture of an old boyfriend on the mantle or dresser? She does not 'bow down' to the picture, so why should you be jealous? What would you do?

If you are a wife, what would you think, if your husband had a female work associate's photograph on the wall in his work area? He does not 'bow down' to it, so why would you be jealous? What would you do about it?

What do you think God thinks when we place "things" as a priority of importance?
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Big Moose~ I would include big, expensive-to-maintain church buildings in that list of things where an excessive amount of money goes. My understanding of "church" means us (where ever we go), because we are the Body of Christ. A modest building to meet in is one thing; but millions of dollars spent on a building and its decor seems outrageous to me. It is a heavy burden on its members, especially during economic crashes...
 
Is this thread about icons, idolatry, or idolatry specifically toward icons? Because they aren't all the same. If someone says they are, then they've presupposed.
 
So are you implying that considering anything to be of importance is idolatry?
My job is important to me, I don't like the idea of poverty, been there, done that, it wasn't fun.
Does that make my work an idol? hardly.
I little bit of common sense needs to be applied to this subject and not just reliance on misapplied scripture.
 
Precisely my point. I think well-meaning people are often warning us about LIKING things too much, because there's a slippery slope logic involved that it will somehow turn into some kind of adulation that takes the place of Jesus. I just don't see it.

I love music, it's the most important thing in my life. But it isn't an idol, nor is it anything Jesus should be "jealous" of. They are two completely unrelated things, and I think it's important to keep that in perspective.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
There are images that depict the trinity, but God is Spirit. He has offered himself in midst of a burning bush and then through the Son, as well as the Holy Spirit (which showed himself as a Dove).
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The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove but not literally a dove. And how was the Trinity depicted? Was there a human looking form of God? If there is then that is falsely depicting God The Father no matter what.
 
ABabeInChrist said:
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove but not literally a dove. And how was the Trinity depicted? Was there a human looking form of God? If there is then that is falsely depicting God The Father no matter what.
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Allow me to clarify. The Holy Spirit, through Scripture, is depicted as a dove, which is why so often you'll see this illustration of the Holy Spirit.

And I agree -- God the Father is not in human form. He can't even be classified as a being as He is simply the substance of to be.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
Allow me to clarify. The Holy Spirit, through Scripture, is depicted as a dove, which is why so often you'll see this illustration of the Holy Spirit.

And I agree -- God the Father is not in human form. He can't even be classified as a being as He is simply the substance of to be.
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It's says the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove not depicted. So man made up the Dove and man many times has depicted God the Father on icons. They have also depicted Jesus falsely many times as well. Jesus does not have long hair otherwise these verses should either not be in the Bible or Jesus sinned

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

1 Corinthians 11:14-15" Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
 
ABabeInChrist said:
It's says the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove not depicted. So man made up the Dove and man many times has depicted God the Father on icons. They have also depicted Jesus falsely many times as well. Jesus does not have long hair otherwise these verses should either not be in the Bible or Jesus sinned

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

1 Corinthians 11:14-15" Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
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These are symbolic forms, not literal. This is why they remain counted as sacramentals. People don't literally think the Holy Spirit is a dove just as they don't believe God the Father is literally in the form of a human being.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
These are symbolic forms, not literal. This is why they remain counted as sacramentals. People don't literally think the Holy Spirit is a dove just as they don't believe God the Father is literally in the form of a human being.
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This is exactly why God doesn't want us to make false images as symbolism. They're only counted as sacramentals to Catholics but to A Christian like me know that God doesn't want images makes this a totally different issue.
 
ABabeInChrist said:
This is exactly why God doesn't want us to make false images as symbolism. They're only counted as sacramentals to Catholics but to A Christian like me know that God doesn't want images makes this a totally different issue.
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To a Christian like myself, we recognize that God has offered images as Sacramentals in the Scriptures -- we see this in Numbers 21:8, Exodus 20:18, and in fact had these depictions used in the early Church because Bibles were not affordable for most people. These images were called "The Bible of the Poor," so that when they went to Church, they could see the illustrations of the Gospel.
 
ABabeInChrist said:
This is exactly why God doesn't want us to make false images as symbolism. They're only counted as sacramentals to Catholics but to A Christian like me know that God doesn't want images makes this a totally different issue.
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Well, Catholics ARE Christians. And God doesn't want images worshipped, but decorations and reminders are not the same thing.
 
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