I Want A More Definitive Understanding Of Scientific Beliefs

It is true... the viewpoints are quite different. In our modern day culture most would think it's Science vs. Religion... but I think that's inaccurate. Why can't religion and science work together, do they absolutely have to be in opposition? Science takes things apart to show you they work, while religion puts them back together and shows you what they mean.

One thing that I feel doesn't get discussed enough is what the scientists say about how fossils occur? Most people have the presupposed idea that fossilization happens willy-nilly, but that isn't true... in order to get fossils, typically the creatures have to die quite suddenly and then get buried. How can one explain how their are so many fish fossils dying and then subsequently getting buried? Animals don't just die and then bury themselves...

Yes definately, it is not science vs religion and anyone who has that opinion is not helping either camp. Working together is a nice idea but probably not that likely most of the time simply because the ideas and theories just oppose each other. It would need one side to give up some fundamental belief and I don't see that happening very easily.

Fossils, as you probably know, need a particular set of circumstances to come about one of them being sediment laying down on top of the animal. This is why the vast majority of fossils are sea creatures. Land based creatures must meet their death near water which is why their are fewer. All animals need water though, so some do get fossilised just because they need to be in proximity to water.
 
Scientists do not disagree on water vapor being a much more effective greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.[/quote]

Yep, agree with that.

Without the temperature differentials to drive the weather there would not have been any rain. Rivers and mist/dew would have been the source of moisture. The surface was not molten and I challenge you to find someone who saw that it was. This is scientific conjecture.

Presumably you typed that wrong and meant '..someone who says that it was..'. Most definately not conjecture, with about 85% of the earth still being molten its not much of a leap of confidence to conclude that it must have ALL been molten at some point. Planet formation (rocky planets) all form this way, proto-planetary disc - accretion - larger rocky bodies collide - heat generates - continual bombardment results in a big molten ball which then becomes a planet. It starts to cool and crust forms on the outside as heat escapes, this is fundamental physics really. I can't think of any physical process that could create a molten body with a rocky crust such as the earth in any other way.

The immense pressure exerted by the water which fell from the sky would have caused the ground to move as the surface attempted to return to isostatic equilibrium. Some parts of the crust would have sunk while others rose.

I don't agree with this, it doesn't conform to any laws of physics. You present this as a theory so I would like to see the published papers to support it.

Plate tectonics are not now producing mountains. They are an attempt to use uniformitarianism to explain mountain production. No, I do not believe that is the mechanism that produced the mountains.

You are entitled to your belief. Plate tectonics, however, is measurable and well proven and is the mechanism that is STILL forming mountains. There are so many different fields of science that verify this, that I don't even think it's worth arguing about really.

Fossils are formed when an organism is rapidly trapped, usually by sediment. What happened during the Flood is a perfect explanation for how the fossil beds were formed.

And that is entirely possible. The whale was caught up in sediment which ended up becoming a mountain. During the period during and following the Flood there was a great amount of movement going on. It took quite a bit to restore equilibrium.

First you say that lighter fossils are on top of heavier fossils as part of your proof of the great flood. Next, I point out that whale fossils have been found on mountain tops. You then say this is quite possible. I'll leave this particular point now because I have a feeling that if I throw in some other observation of fossil distribution that appears to contradict, you will simply include it in your great flood idea.

I disagree. I believe it is a much more reliable explanation than the one scientists have been tossing around for a couple of hundred years. Where does evolution theory come from? Where does any theory or explanation come from?

Theories come initially from someone observing a 'thing' or an 'event'. This person(s) then wants to describe how it came about so embarks on (often) very lengthy observations, measurements and experiments to formulate a way to describe the initial observation using existing laws of physics and the like. Eventually when he thinks he has gathered enough data he will present this hypothesis to the scientific community who will vet it and usually find any number of flaws. This person then goes away and repeats and refines experiments, takes more observations, spends many years to improve this hypothesis...but you get the idea here. Eventually, after many years of blood, sweat and tears the process MAY spit out a theory at the end. That is where theories come from.

On the other hand, an analysis that comes from an interpretation of, say, Genesis does not go through such a rigorous process - at least as far as I know anyway. It appears to be a good idea that suits a group of people and so it becomes accepted (within that group). It is not offered out to the global population to scrutinise and question like theories are, it simply IS. If that is not a fair description then you are free to challenge it of course.

If you were to be completely impartial of our argument, I think there would be few who would honestly say that a scientific theory is a less reliable process than an closed interpretation.

As I asked previously, I would genuinely be interested to know roughly how many interpretations of Genesis there are?

And I would venture there is as much disagreement between creationists as there is among scientists

Agreed.
 
I've yet, in my entire life, opened my door to be greeted by someone stating to be atheist and offering me the latest Stephen Hawking publication. Now that would be refreshing, but I doubt that will ever happen.

I propose that your opinion that science has an agenda against you is purely down to your personal outlook on life and not an accurate picture of what science is.

Science, in it's truest form, should be unbiased. You cite Stephen Hawking as a big proponent in Science yet many things that he has said isn't scientific at all. When people have come to the conclusion that the Universe is finely tuned to support life and that if anyone of our Natural Laws were just a smidgeon off... life as we know it wouldn't exist. This is called the Anthropic Principle. Because the more and more we discover it becomes increasingly difficult to think that everything came about in a cosmological accident, and that we just happen to be in the one where the conditions are perfect. Hawking tries to "solve" this dilemma by proposing the existence of billions and billions of other universes outside our own - also called the Multiverse. He has said, That anything than can happen, does and will happen... according to this "idea". He has used an analogy to prove his point... "If you had an infinite amount of chimpanzees typing away on an infinite amount of typewriters, then one of chimpanzees would eventually type out the complete works of William Shakespeare." This is all well and fine, except that we cannot observe eternity. Nor can one observe parallel universes, even in principle. You can argue that he has a tremendous imagination, but that isn't science.
 
Fossils, as you probably know, need a particular set of circumstances to come about one of them being sediment laying down on top of the animal. This is why the vast majority of fossils are sea creatures. Land based creatures must meet their death near water which is why their are fewer. All animals need water though, so some do get fossilised just because they need to be in proximity to water.

So what you're saying is because animals need water, then fossils occur near water. I'm trying to follow your train of thought here... if an animal dies and then is later found buried in the ground due to fossilization, then what's the conclusion? Death by water or death near water? Or that the animal died due to some other cause and then quite suddenly gets buried by water?
 
Science, in it's truest form, should be unbiased. You cite Stephen Hawking as a big proponent in Science

I didn' cite him as a big proponent although he undoubtably is. I went to the trouble of replying to each point made and you quote one of my points but don't refer to anything I said other than "Stephen Hawking". Do you want to reply to my point or shall we move off and discuss Stephen Hawking now?

Maybe if I had said "I've never opened my door to a bunch of atheiests offering me the latest science book" you could answer it?
 
So what you're saying is because animals need water, then fossils occur near water. I'm trying to follow your train of thought here... if an animal dies and then is later found buried in the ground due to fossilization, then what's the conclusion? Death by water or death near water? Or that the animal died due to some other cause and then quite suddenly gets buried by water?

I'm not saying any of that. I'm not proposing death by water or death near water. I was replying to the previous post by saying that fossilisation almost always requires the animal to end up in water for the process to work. You can't make any conclusions about how it died from that.
 
I'm not saying any of that. I'm not proposing death by water or death near water. I was replying to the previous post by saying that fossilisation almost always requires the animal to end up in water for the process to work. You can't make any conclusions about how it died from that.

I think the point being made is that when an animal dies, be it in water or dry ground, it will invariably be eaten by some sort of scavenger. Then any bones or exoskeleton will likely be scattered by wind/rain/tidal drift and so on. Fossilization requires rapid burial to preserve the bodily details before the body or the remnants of it are cast to the 4 winds. Consider,..... we seldom find a fairly old intact skeleton lying around waiting for geologic ages to bury it in preparation for fossilization, and probably never without exception do we find 'old' marine skeletons waiting to be buried by ocean sediments.....it just doesn't happen.
So in a sort of reverse process observation we see ample evidence to support the idea of rapid catastrophic death and burial in the fossil records..
We see no 'ho hum' here we go again evidence to support the idea of fossilization being a normal everyday process.
Maybe I have missed Onehope's point:whistle:....maybe not.:cool:
 
You are correct, it is true that scientific theories are rejected, re-examined and scrutinised in every possible detail until you are left with the most plausible explanation. That IS science. Theories that do not stand up to this kind of examination are not accepted by the scientific community. I don't see why you would see that as some sort of flaw?

I completely reject the accusation that science has a 'core' agenda to disprove creationists. Science is a continual development of our understanding of the Universe from the very small to the very big. Science would quite happily carry on its exploration without a second glance to religious scriptures, the two don't really cross paths or at least they shouldn't need to.

Creationists presumably are a bit miffed that science appears to disprove their bible stories but thats only a consequence of the science NOT its ultimate aim. I would like to know where you get the impression that scientists have an agenda to reject christ? It doesn't look like that from where I stand at least. Is there one particular field of science, or individual who makes you feel this way? Or is it just 'scientists' in general? Does that include me?

If I was to take the same stance I could say that creationists have an agenda against me! Why should you have a monopoly on feeling persecuted? I don't take offence when several times a year I am descended on by groups of theists knocking on my door offering pamphlets persuading me to join their 'cult'. I walk past people preaching on the street corners in my city quite often doing the same but it doesn't make me feel persecuted, if anyone has an agenda then THAT is where you should look.

I've yet, in my entire life, opened my door to be greeted by someone stating to be atheist and offering me the latest Stephen Hawking publication. Now that would be refreshing, but I doubt that will ever happen.

I propose that your opinion that science has an agenda against you is purely down to your personal outlook on life and not an accurate picture of what science is.
No, outright lies have been told and taught by these people, putting pigs teeth along other bones to attempt to deceive.. on and on lie upon lie. So no, I reject that these corrupt people desire any portion or have any part in the truth, other than what truth they can use as cover for some new lie they are seeking to tell. No, these people having proven that they cannot be trusted but to promote the fairy tale of evolution. "one day nothing blew-up and made everything" how silly!
 
No, outright lies have been told and taught by these people, putting pigs teeth along other bones to attempt to deceive.. on and on lie upon lie. So no, I reject that these corrupt people desire any portion or have any part in the truth, other than what truth they can use as cover for some new lie they are seeking to tell. No, these people having proven that they cannot be trusted but to promote the fairy tale of evolution. "one day nothing blew-up and made everything" how silly!

I have no wish to discuss this particular view with you. You have a far too fundamentalist approach for me to sensibly argue with. To me, you represent exactly what causes divides between humans.

You call me a liar, my opinion is nonsense or based on deception. My belief is based on "a fairytale". Who on earth do you think you are?

Its a free forum but I will ignore any of your further posts.
 
Scientists do not disagree on water vapor being a much more effective greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

Yep, agree with that.



Presumably you typed that wrong and meant '..someone who says that it was..'. Most definately not conjecture, with about 85% of the earth still being molten its not much of a leap of confidence to conclude that it must have ALL been molten at some point. Planet formation (rocky planets) all form this way, proto-planetary disc - accretion - larger rocky bodies collide - heat generates - continual bombardment results in a big molten ball which then becomes a planet. It starts to cool and crust forms on the outside as heat escapes, this is fundamental physics really. I can't think of any physical process that could create a molten body with a rocky crust such as the earth in any other way.

>>> How do you know it was molten. Scientists have not observed actual planetary formation so it is conjecture on their part.

I don't agree with this, it doesn't conform to any laws of physics. You present this as a theory so I would like to see the published papers to support it.

>>> Isotonic equilibrium is a basic to geology.

You are entitled to your belief. Plate tectonics, however, is measurable and well proven and is the mechanism that is STILL forming mountains. There are so many different fields of science that verify this, that I don't even think it's worth arguing about really.

>>> Show me a mountain formed in the past century or so by plate tectonics.

First you say that lighter fossils are on top of heavier fossils as part of your proof of the great flood. Next, I point out that whale fossils have been found on mountain tops. You then say this is quite possible. I'll leave this particular point now because I have a feeling that if I throw in some other observation of fossil distribution that appears to contradict, you will simply include it in your great flood idea.

>>> Fossils end up where they are due to the great amount of turbulence and mixing which occurred.

Theories come initially from someone observing a 'thing' or an 'event'. This person(s) then wants to describe how it came about so embarks on (often) very lengthy observations, measurements and experiments to formulate a way to describe the initial observation using existing laws of physics and the like. Eventually when he thinks he has gathered enough data he will present this hypothesis to the scientific community who will vet it and usually find any number of flaws. This person then goes away and repeats and refines experiments, takes more observations, spends many years to improve this hypothesis...but you get the idea here. Eventually, after many years of blood, sweat and tears the process MAY spit out a theory at the end. That is where theories come from.

>>> I understand how a theory is derived. How could a scientist conduct an experiment to prove their theory of how the earth was formed.

On the other hand, an analysis that comes from an interpretation of, say, Genesis does not go through such a rigorous process - at least as far as I know anyway. It appears to be a good idea that suits a group of people and so it becomes accepted (within that group). It is not offered out to the global population to scrutinise and question like theories are, it simply IS. If that is not a fair description then you are free to challenge it of course.

If you were to be completely impartial of our argument, I think there would be few who would honestly say that a scientific theory is a less reliable process than an closed interpretation.

As I asked previously, I would genuinely be interested to know roughly how many interpretations of Genesis there are?



Agreed.[/quote]
 
I have no wish to discuss this particular view with you. You have a far too fundamentalist approach for me to sensibly argue with. To me, you represent exactly what causes divides between humans.

You call me a liar, my opinion is nonsense or based on deception. My belief is based on "a fairytale". Who on earth do you think you are?

Its a free forum but I will ignore any of your further posts.
My friend you attempted to "discuss" and point out some error of my very reasonable position, as it relates to this issue. I did not call "you" a liar, that is a "untrue" statement, that tends to cause division among those who would seek an honest conversation. The FACTS are, that these "evolutionist" who use science to cloak their silly beliefs, have been caught over and over in lie after lie. They should not and cannot be trusted. "nothing blew-up and made everything" is in fact about as silly a concept as a reprobate mind could come up with. This nonsense should be laughed at, by all thinking and honest people.
 
Not too sure the original OP is being served well, but Ohhh Well.
Most definately not conjecture, with about 85% of the earth still being molten its not much of a leap of confidence to conclude that it must have ALL been molten at some point. Planet formation (rocky planets) all form this way, proto-planetary disc - accretion - larger rocky bodies collide - heat generates - continual

To be perfectly candid, I think this idea of rocky planet origins is at best nothing more than a 'camp fire' story.
If people want the formation of planets to span millions of years they need to factor cooling into their thinking. Sure once the ball of stuff takes on planetary proportions, the idea of a molten core and volcanic activity caused by (eddy currents?) becomes more feasible. But a big ball of Lava...awe c'mon.
Interestingly, the idea of a molten beginning does seem to be yet another attempt to discredit Genesis, rather than serious science.
I'd venture to say that if all the nervous energy spent trying to discredit Genesis was redeployed to seriously understand the message it has for us, the world might be in much better shape.
 
In short; 'modern science' is a man made creation. And like all man made creations they never have any flaws....right?

The problem I see with 'science' in the mainstream; they always base their present knowledge on what they think they know are absolutes from the past creating a paradigm of an inherently flawed and biased system.

But I am not that smart after all, so I will continue to be foolish in my faith even though my faith is foolish to the world...

Oh yeah the Bible said it would be like this? huh...
 
I'd venture to say that if all the nervous energy spent trying to discredit Genesis was redeployed to seriously understand the message it has for us, the world might be in much better shape.

I would venture to say that if all the passion spent praying to various gods for the last few thousand years, and building places of worship for the masses was used in a more beneficial way the world WOULD be in much better shape.
 
In short; 'modern science' is a man made creation. And like all man made creations they never have any flaws....right?

The problem I see with 'science' in the mainstream; they always base their present knowledge on what they think they know are absolutes from the past creating a paradigm of an inherently flawed and biased system.

But I am not that smart after all, so I will continue to be foolish in my faith even though my faith is foolish to the world...

Oh yeah the Bible said it would be like this? huh...

I think your understanding of science is probably slighty skewed (or biased).
 
TubbyTubby.... I'm sorry that I went off topic and only replied to one of your points. I didn't really have time to respond to every single point, as I was about to go to bed. But after reading your bit that referenced Stephen Hawking it sparked my curiosity. I think this is because I always pegged him as much more of a philosopher rather than a scientist. Yes, he was (and is still) very much into physics, but his seemingly bigger ideas seem more along the lines of "ideas" rather than "theories"... But that is besides the point... I will try my best to get to give you a detailed response...

You are correct, it is true that scientific theories are rejected, re-examined and scrutinised in every possible detail until you are left with the most plausible explanation. That IS science. Theories that do not stand up to this kind of examination are not accepted by the scientific community. I don't see why you would see that as some sort of flaw?

I completely reject the accusation that science has a 'core' agenda to disprove creationists. Science is a continual development of our understanding of the Universe from the very small to the very big. Science would quite happily carry on its exploration without a second glance to religious scriptures, the two don't really cross paths or at least they shouldn't need to.

>>> I agree and disagree. I think that evolutionists and creationists alike, have been guilty in the past and future, of having an agenda. That is to say that as a "whole" they don't have an agenda... but I will say that one of the reasons (but definitely not the ONLY reason) that people like the idea of evolution is that it seemingly takes God out of the picture. True... you could have an ultimate designer USE evolution, but I would grant that most people don't think that way and would rather just go on thinking that everything just creates itself and there is no supernatural entity behind it that dictates a "right" and a "wrong". This is speaking not from a scientific point of view, regarding evolution, but more-so a "preferable" way of thinking... hope I'm not rambling here? Since we are on the topic I am curious about one thing. In your opinion how does biological evolution account for the numerous amounts of symbiotic relationships seen in nature? That is to say that their are certain flowers who's only purpose is to be pollenated by one specific insect. And that specific insect only exists to pollenate those specific kind of flowers. There is an organism that lives inside a mosquito. It can only live while the mosquito lives (the same goes for the mosquito). One other example, though this example is NOT found in nature, is a mousetrap. It has five parts: the hammer, the platform, the catch, the hold-down bar, and the spring. If anyone of those five parts are not there the whole thing is completely useless... everything is needed simultaneously for it's function to remain intact. Do you know what could possibly cause this?

Creationists presumably are a bit miffed that science appears to disprove their bible stories but thats only a consequence of the science NOT its ultimate aim. I would like to know where you get the impression that scientists have an agenda to reject christ? It doesn't look like that from where I stand at least. Is there one particular field of science, or individual who makes you feel this way? Or is it just 'scientists' in general? Does that include me?

>>> I know this question wasn't aimed at me, but one popular individual that makes me feel this way is Richard Dawkins. He doesn't so much "attack creation" as he attacks the idea of God. From interviews, debates, and passages from his books, I don't get the impression that he uses science to say there is no God, but that he just doesn't like the idea of having someone bigger than him, watching him. I think the reason why people don't talk about Noah's Ark and the Great Flood in a positive light is because of uniformitarianism. Which is the principle that everything we observe today, the geology, the tectonic plates, and the laws, is the exact same as it was back then. For one to believe that Noah's Ark and the Great Flood are true and viable, you would have to disregard that commonly held principle. It is because of this principle being the "foundation" for most of scientific inquiry, that you can't either approve or disprove it. You either believe it happened or you don't. For example: one cannot scientifically explain how Moses parted the Red Sea... but most Christians accept that it happened. You could argue that God was "feeding" his power into the Red Sea and that Natural Laws were merely the descriptions of what was happening, rather than the driving-force. But it is out of our hands to explain in full detail God's intervention. The flood story as stated in Genesis, is arguably the most dramatic thing that has happened in the Bible. I don't believe that the mountains arose as an outcome of the floodgates breaking out... I believe He caused them to rise up.

If I was to take the same stance I could say that creationists have an agenda against me! Why should you have a monopoly on feeling persecuted? I don't take offence when several times a year I am descended on by groups of theists knocking on my door offering pamphlets persuading me to join their 'cult'. I walk past people preaching on the street corners in my city quite often doing the same but it doesn't make me feel persecuted, if anyone has an agenda then THAT is where you should look.

>>> I think the "prosecutions" don't happen all at once... but slowly over time the abuses on religion pile up. The only time I ever see any modern TV show, having characters that are depicted as Christians, religious, or quoting scriptures is right after they murdered a bunch of people. Depicting them as maniacs. When I went and visited Britain, much of their television blatantly mocked religious beliefs. I'm not accusing "science in general" as having an agenda, but I think it's hard to deny that there is a very strong movement taking place... and it's lean is towards a godless society.
 
Interestingly, the idea of a molten beginning does seem to be yet another attempt to discredit Genesis, rather than serious science.


If you continue to believe that the sole purpose of advancement of our knowledge about the Universe is to discredit the bible then you are deluded in my opinion.
 
I think the point being made is that when an animal dies, be it in water or dry ground, it will invariably be eaten by some sort of scavenger. Then any bones or exoskeleton will likely be scattered by wind/rain/tidal drift and so on. Fossilization requires rapid burial to preserve the bodily details before the body or the remnants of it are cast to the 4 winds. Consider,..... we seldom find a fairly old intact skeleton lying around waiting for geologic ages to bury it in preparation for fossilization, and probably never without exception do we find 'old' marine skeletons waiting to be buried by ocean sediments.....it just doesn't happen.
So in a sort of reverse process observation we see ample evidence to support the idea of rapid catastrophic death and burial in the fossil records..
We see no 'ho hum' here we go again evidence to support the idea of fossilization being a normal everyday process.
Maybe I have missed Onehope's point:whistle:....maybe not.:cool:

I see where you are going with this now. So according to Genesis, every fossil we find now is a direct result of the great flood? So every single fossil is exactly the same age also?
 
How do you know it was molten. Scientists have not observed actual planetary formation so it is conjecture on their part.

No, but it is part of a theory that uses laws of physics and our understanding of how planetary systems form. There are many thousands of planets being detected right now that are orbiting other stars and I imagine as technology advances we will understand even more about these planets.

Isotonic equilibrium is a basic to geology.

What is Isotonic Equilibrium?

Show me a mountain formed in the past century or so by plate tectonics.
Mountains grow at a few millimeters each year so you would not expect to see one formed in the past century.

I understand how a theory is derived. How could a scientist conduct an experiment to prove their theory of how the earth was formed.

That just seems a bit pedantic to me.
 
I would venture to say that if all the passion spent praying to various gods for the last few thousand years, and building places of worship for the masses was used in a more beneficial way the world WOULD be in much better shape.
Yes, to some extent you a right.
There is only one God that counts. 'Various gods' can include science, wealth, elaborate buildings of any type for any purpose, political power, financial power etc.etc..
 
Back
Top