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I do what I do not want to do.

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. What thoughts do we have on Romans 7:
    13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

    21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
    >>end
    What is Paul saying through the urging of the Holy Spirit?
    Is he demonstrating the sin nature of mankind?
    I believe he is confessing his own weaknesses and failure to follow God's will.
    It is reassuring that even Paul had these same troubles as we have.
     
    calvin likes this.
  2. I believe Paul is still teaching as he is writing these things in order that those who have yet to truly crucify the flesh and learn to walk in the Spirit so they will not be gratifying the lust of the flesh. They were struggling just as Born again believers would from then on and it is simply the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul teaching all of us from then until God calls it done.
     
  3. He is making a humungous point. Paul has just revealed to us exactly what God wants from mankind. God does not want perfect humans. He wants humans who HATE what is evil. Rom 7:15 is echoed in Rom 12:9.
     
  4. Amen and He wants us to call our good good and our evil evil and stop rationalizing and justifying our self so that our evil appears to maybe be good after all or that people doing good are accepted as evil....to confess our sins means to agree with Him about them (not that we will never have them)
     
    KingJ likes this.
  5. I've spoken on this in many threads. My belief is indeed Paul is discussing our human condition, but more importantly to show us HOW to actually become OVERCOMERS. With the mind. Taking captive all the thoughts that make themselves higher than the word of God, to transform our thinking to be in line with the word of God, and to build up our faith in hearing the word of God (your ears are each side of that grey matter ;) ). The phrase stolen by the devil to be negative "It's all in your head" is really the means to escape from evil!
     
  6. I agree. In fact, that Paul was using a literary device such as speaking in the present tense, is to emphasize that he has already overcome!
     
    Abdicate likes this.
  7. Sorry to ask but where do you get that? I realize that Hebrews thought and wrote in terms of completed and incomplete actions and Paul is not speaking of the future so how do we discern he was speaking about a past condition? Where can I get information on such a literary device? Thanks
     
  8. Paul's use of the change of tense is to contrast the pre-Christian view with the mature Christian perspective, bringing the view close to his hearers as if it were right before them, rather than past.

    This may not be the very best link, but I cannot find the one I have used before! If and when I do, I will PM you with it.

    Excerpted from:
    http://archives.adventistreview.org...issue-2012-1502/the-wretched-iman-of-romans-7

    Paul, being highly educated and a skilled orator, may likely have been using a Greek rhetorical technique called diatribe to make his argument more effective. Diatribe is a form of argument during which the speaker engages an audience through various techniques that include direct address, paradoxes, rhetorical questions, and dialogues with imaginary third persons whose objections and counterpositions are dismantled.

    One device is the “historic present,” which is using the present tense to describe a past event with the vividness of a present occurrence. For example, in Matthew 8:19-22 the verb in “Jesus said to him,” in both verses 20 and 22 employs the Greek present tense. A literal translation is “Jesus says to him” or “Jesus is saying to him.” Obviously Jesus is not saying this right now. The present tense is employed to increase the intensity of what Jesus did say.

    The historic present was widely used in classical Greek and by contemporaries of Paul, such as Nicolaus of Damascus.4 Applied to the book of Romans, it would mean that the wretched man is Paul’s preconversion experience described in the present tense to increase the impact on his audience. This approach would make sense if this entire section is in the present tense; however, there is a transition between the past to the present within the passage.

    Another device that may explain the identity of the “I” in Romans 7 is called prosopopoeia. This long Greek word refers to a form of argument in which an absent or imaginary person or thing is represented as speaking.5 Greek philosophers have been known to use “I” as a generalizing expression. For example, Epictetus used “I” to refer to a group of people.
     
  9. #9 CCW95A, Mar 18, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    It really makes no difference wither Paul is talking about the past, present, or future, as long as we are living in physical bodies we will have problems with the flesh. Walking in the Spirit by having our mind set on the things of the Spirit will "suppress" these fleshly desires. How long can a Christian do this depends on their spiritual grow in the Lord. We all "stagger" once in a while, and this is why if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father. If we confess our sins, God will forgives us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    When we receive our new spiritual bodies these agitations will never come up.
     
    Arrie03 and Big Moose say Amen and like this.
  10. Reading some of the explanations given in the link:
    It is apparent to me that many in the early church and catholics who were insisting that, since Paul was a "Saint"(Catholic ordained), he didn't sin after he was converted, or at least they wanted the appearance to be so. It would hurt their message if "Saints" were as wretched as the rest of the peasantry. This belief would then elevate the priests and bishops and on up the line, to that of higher standing and endorsing the right of them to make rules to be honored as the Bible itself was to be honored.

    A line really stood out to me, confirming my reading of the chapter. "This approach would make sense if this entire section is in the present tense; however, there is a transition between the past to the present within the passage."

    Paul was as wretched as any of us are without the grace of Jesus with us. And after we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we still remember what we are without it. I think this is the gist of the OP.
     
    Euphemia likes this.
  11. I there old Friend Jim. I took your advise and here I am. I have studied Romans seven many times with interest. I'm still, at my age, learning to walk in the Spirit as explained in Romans eight.
     
    Abdicate and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  12. Brother Chopper,
    Praise God it is so Nice to see you here ! Now then you will find this place a much happier and lovingplace then where you came from and believe me we are all ready for you to start pouring out of your hert brother....Jesus flows well from you brother.
    Blessings
    Jim
     
  13. #13 calvin, Mar 21, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
    I agree though I'm sure there are those who would disagree.
    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
    (Hmmm hold that thought)
    Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
     
  14. I believe paul was setting up an example and teaching the following......
    It is most common amongst the brethren. This is the way to over come this. ; )
    Romans 12:2
    ... And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good and acceptibable and perfect will of God.

    Ephesians 4:22-24
    22... That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lust;
    23... And be renewed in theSpirit of YOUR MIND
    24... And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Galations 5:16-17
    16... This I say then, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17... For the flesh lusteth ( puts pressure ) against the Spirit , and the Spirit against the flesh; and these arte contrary the one to the other; so that ye can not do the things that ye would.

    Tis thy only way to freedom
    Blessings
    Jim
     
  15. Thank you my dear Brother. I am sure to be refreshed here. Thank you for the invitation.
     
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.

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