How would you tackle it?

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Complete, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. Hello there,
    This was quoted to me this morning by a lady who is atheist, and left in the air, for me to address.
    How would you tackle it?

    In Christ Jesus
    Ravindran likes this.
  2. #2 KingJ, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
    I have disucssed this on atheist sites before. This cute little saying does simply not even try to understand the concept of free will.

    ''Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.''

    The fact that there is evil points to something other then God not being omnipotent. It points to free will. To a God choosing to be as good as He is omnipotent by using the devil, a forbidden tree, the earth and all that is in it to bring about the perfect setting needed for His creation of mankind to... have free will. We all have arms and hands that can be used for good or evil. Why? Because free will is good and God is good.

    Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

    Well He is willing. The devil looks for whom he can devour. They are imagining helpless victims of torture but not seeing God's hand with His people in their suffering. A forgiveabke mistake / assumption as God does definitely give the evil time and space in which to be evil. But we see throughout scripture how those whose wickedness reached ''full measure'' did not live long.

    God giving the evil time to be evil is ironically a sign of the complete opposite of malevolent ( will is good). Only if Earth and the way things are now was the future of mankind would they have a valid argument. God also suffers with us. We know this from the cross.

    Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

    Evil comes from His good gift of free will. It is part and parcel with a creation of the likes of angels and humans. It is evil to force a highly intelligent creation that is able to choose to do something wicked only do what is good. It is good to give that creation free will to choose which they prefer. God gives us hands, fellow humans and animals. We choose to use our hands to kill or heal.

    Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

    Well we have established that He is able and willing. We have also realized that He is as good as He is omnipotent. Earth is temporary but sufficient time enough for the evil to know that they are evil and understand why their eternal fate will be separation from the righteous.

    So, we can call Him a good God. Not just ''a god''. If earth was all there was then, sure, atheists have a valid point. But earth is not all there is....that fact turns this cute little saying completely on its head and 100% in God's favor.

    Free will is good. We can be thankful for the effort God has gone through to make it available to us. They are right on one thing, He didn't have to. He has done more then is expected of a ''god''.

    So now that atheists know this, I wish they would get on their knees and worship God for being as good as He is omnipotent.
    Major and Complete say Amen and like this.
  3. What a wonderful response, I do thank you @KingJ.

    Withing the love of Christ our Saviour.
    KingJ likes this.
  4. When speaking with an "atheist" (your typical atheist anyway) you must remember that they are not half as intelligent as they think themselves to be, and very often will ignore any arguments that don't fit with their reasoning, no matter how well thought out or reasonable.
    "To the believer, no proof is necessary, to the skeptic, no proof is possible."

    An honest person would call themselves an agnostic, for they truly "do not know".
    As soon as they take the title of "atheist", they prove themselves liars.
    Major, Ravindran, Cturtle and 2 others say Amen and like this.
  5. Thank you, @Glomung, I fear you are right that anything I may say will not be received.

    There but for the grace of God go I.
    In Christ Jesus
  6. The Lord God is both willing, and able to stop evil in this world. The Lord is "sovereign", and nothing happens on planet earth without the Lord allowing, and permitting it to happen. God allowing, and permitting evil does not mean he "commissions" it to happen. In God's sovereignty he has decided to let man have his free will in what he does, and that man will suffer the consequences of his actions whether it be good or bad.
    When God gave Adam authority over all the works of his hands in Genesis it was not forever he would have this authority. It was only going to be for time until mans "lease" on earth would run out, as Jesus mentioned this in Mathew 21:33-42 The word in the KJV "let it out " means " to lease, or to rent out" Once this lease runs out the "original" owner takes back possession of the earth which had always belonged to God in the beginning. Thank God for "time" is running out until the Lord God destroys this earth with fire and recreates it one more time where evil will not dwell.
    When we read the Old Testament we find the Lord always needed a "man" to have faith that gave God access to this earth which allowed the Lord to work based on his faith. Abraham because of his faith in his willing to offer his son gave God the right to send his only begotten Son. Noah because of his faith allowed God to bring the flood upon this earth. Many many other places in scripture we find God needing a man to have faith to give him access to work on earth since it was leased out to man until his lease runs out. Right now the Church has this power over all the works of the wicked one, and if the Church does not take and use this authority which gives God access to perform what we are believing him to do, it will not get done.
  7. That people have a sense of good and evil points to the existence of God. If we are creatures of purposeless chance, then shooting a bunch of random people would be no different morally than shooting rocks. There would be no absolute right or wrong; only how those in power happen to define it at the moment.
    Man brought evil into the world and man continues to perpetrate it. It is God's goodness (in the form of mercy) that he allows evil people to live to give them time to repent (2 Peter 3:9).
    Major, Ravindran and KingJ says Amen and like this.
  8. A person might ask her why does she want to know.
    Is she not satisfied with where she is at?
    You might encourage her not to stumble on her questions because that only limits her to her own understanding.
    You might point out that contrasts are necessary to define and that God has attributes that need to be manifested such as creator and savior etc and that all things are done to His honor and glory. It is a human fallacy to think that a little part of the plan revolves around us but instead we need to understand that all things revolve around His thinking.
    It is said that true compassion is not human sympathy but to do the will of God.
  9. @CCW95A

    I thank you, all three, for your input on this question.
    Seeing each individual's reasoning like this, brings different facets of thought to bear, and it is interesting to see each, though different, compliment one another.

    Thank you for providing your insight, and for giving advice concerning my approach to the lady in question.
    May God's will be done, for she is certainly in my prayers. She is a person who appears to be without guile, with a clear, direct approach. I just pray that she will have her eyes opened to see that God 'IS', for without that knowledge there can be no hope of faith finding entry.

    ' ... ... for he that cometh to God must believe that He IS,
    and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.'

    (Heb 11:6)

    'How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
    and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
    and how shall they hear without a preacher?'

    (Rom 10:14)

    In Christ Jesus
  10. Hello there,

    One day Epicurus will have to stand, like all men, before His Maker, when every word spoken will be judged. These words have such an air of defiance about them, calling into question as they do the existence of God, and denigrating His character and worth.

    I praise God that He IS! That the heavens declare His handiwork, and all the work of His hands declare His existence, and His power and Godhead. I only have to think of the working of my own body, the way the temperature of the very air that I breath is warmed before it reaches my lungs, for example, to know that I am fearfully and wonderfully made. That the creator of heaven and earth made me too.

    Praise His Holy Name!

    Thank God! That He has, by His grace, given us eyes to see and ears to hear, ' ... and lips that we might tell, how great is God Almighty, Who has done all things well.'

    In Christ Jesus

    Cturtle likes this.
  11. Sounds like she's baiting you.

    Look at life when attempting to answer something like this. The government set up speed limits because when there weren't any, people died. Therefore the government set boundaries. God did the same thing. In all things there's wiggle room, but if you decide to cross the middle yellow line, 9 out of 10 times, nothing will happen. But that one time you're not paying attention and you cross it and at that moment you hit a bus head-on and kill 17 people and your family, whose fault is it? Yours. So God said, don't do this or that, and 9 out of 10 times nothing happens, but that one time, the devil has a right to exact judgement on you. Whose fault is it? Finally, the direct and simple answer is, Free Will. If for ANY sin, God zaps you dead, there'd be no one left. All God says is love your neighbor as yourself and most of all, love God with all your heart mind and soul. Boundaries.
    /, KingJ and Cturtle says Amen and like this.
  12. I think the "free will" position other members have brought up is a sufficient challenge.

    Effectively, the quotation implies that we should believe that God doesn't exist because this isn't heaven yet.

    The way I look at it is, God doesn't only will the prevention of evil, He also wills that people come to Him of their own choice. If He forced all people to conform to His will against their own will, thus preventing all evil, wouldn't He just be a tyrant? And would we be humans at all, or just creatures of instinct, unable to reason or choose anything at all?
    Major and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  13. I think if we go all the way back to the garden of eden, we find that God has placed a lot of things into our hands that many people don't want or realize is their responsibility. And due to that many people blame God for things that are not His fault. In deuteronomy 30:19-20 God has put the power of life and death into our hands. And in prov. 18:21 it says that life and death are in the power (or authority) of the tongue. He desires that we choose life, but the end choice is ours. Many places in the Bible say if we will do this He will do that (just something to study and think about) Sadly it has become an age of passing the buck and blaming others for our lack of knowledge or our lack of obedience, or just plain laziness.

    Blessings belong to all of you in abundance
    Major and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  14. Which reminds me of a verse.....the things of God are foolishness to those who do not believe, or are perishing. But to those of us who are believers it is the power or the very center of our faith (my paraphrase)
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  15. Just to add one Scripture to your list. 2 Timothy 2:24-26
    Andthe servant of the Lord must not strive (quarrel); but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    May God bless her with the gift of repentance. In Jesus name amen

    God Bless you mightily
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  16. I think the bigger question to the person is, do they believe in evil? If they believe in evil, they are believing in moral standards. They cannot believe in moral standards without attributing it to moral standard Giver. That is, God himself. If they believe in God, still the question is a difficult one. Why God does not stop evil. I think KingJ has given a nice explanation! (y)
  17. Here is something that seems to be left out.
    The first adam released sin into this world and into every single man born of a woman.
    The first adam also gave satan authority in a sense and dominion in this world.

    The second adam "Jesus" defeated satan and death and gave His children authority over the devil.

    Now then this does not change what adam did in this world or another words - every one is born a sinner - you can live a life that no person can find fault with and you are still a sinner for we are all born with sin in us thanks to the first adam.

    Thanks to the first adam - evil, sin, babylonian system which is simply the way the world conducts it's self is set into motion.

    God has done something about this evil - He sent Jesus into this world to teach us and show us the Father and the way to Him. It is up to us to accept Jesus or not. When we do then we are seperated from this world. We are born again people and not simply human beings any more. God has given us authority over this evil BUT we must follow His way or program to put things into being. Another words.........Live as Jesus did and showed us to live. Follow Gods plan for man. Grow in Christ and learn how to operate in this kingdom and under the Blessing of the Lord.

    Those that dont are subbject unto this evil world and it's ways. There is no use trying to make excuses why God allows or permits and so forth. Get over that - The first adam put it into effect. The second adam Jesus got it back for us but One Must follow the ways of the Lord or another words learn how to walk in Gods ways ( His word ) and learn how to put forth His ways which bring His results.

    Being a born again Christian does NOT make you exempt from the crap that this world brings. It does however offer you a way to become and overcomer of this worlds crap and not be controlled by it. Again it is up to each person to make this choice and walk it out.

    It is not about what God allows or why He does this or does not do that. He gave it all to the first adam. The first adam through it all away. The second adam came and got it back for us BUT we must except Him and follow His commands.

    Those who question would a Loving God let this or that happen..........need to grasp that - man fouled it all up..........God sent us a deliverer - The choice is ours but the evil in this world will stay until it is all said and done.

    God gave man much in the beginning - dominion - control of much and so forth. then man fouls it all up. This does not put it back in Gods Hands - This is why He sent Jesus to get it back for us. It is up to us to take it or leave it. Think if it simply put this back into Gods hands then we would not have needed Jesus.................

    As long as this world is alive there will be evil and sin and death and wickedness and so forth.
    The answer is Jesus - then living as He taught. Gods promises are for us........however we must learn how to walk in His ways to see them operate in our lives.

    God Bless
    Cturtle likes this.
  18. Wow -now there is some big truth here. The gift of repentance is a powerful tool that every beleiver should grasp and understand. This should be incorporated into our prayers for those who are struggling with things like un-forgiveness and lacking the Love in their love walk and so forth. It is also a powerful tool when praying for those who are lost.

    It is as important as binding the strong holds which have been keeping the light from getting into their hearts. Spiritual blindness must be taken seriously by those weho are praying.
    God Bless
    Major and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  19. The problem is that to many beleivers want to pick and choose what is for us and what is not and what is important and what is not. These are the folks that never reach maturity in their walk.
    Major and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  20. Kind of like a puppet and the puppet master..........Now their is real love for ya. rofl
    Major likes this.

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