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How Was Saul Saved Or Where Did Grace Begin ??

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by dan p, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Hi to all , and most believers see that something SPECTACULAR happened in Acts 9:6 , but most will never agree with the following OP , and what I will write !!

    #1 , The Dispensation of Grace began with SAUL in Acts 9:6 !

    #2 , SAUL was saved by Grace !!

    #3 , Jesus did not say Repent and be water baptized , as John did in Matt 3:11 !

    #4 , SAUL was the PROTOS/FIRST person inducted into the Body of Christ , 1 Cor 12:13 !!

    dan p
     

  2. Hi Dan and welcome. You pose some good points.

    #1
    Really??? What about Acts #2 when the Holy Spirit came upon the 120?

    #2
    We are all saved by GRACE.

    #3
    Agreed.

    #4
    What about Adam and Eve? What about Seth, Noah, Daniel, Ezekiel and Hosea and Joshua.
    We have had this conversation before and if you are referring to the CHURCH then I might go along with that, but then what about Peter and those 120 in the upper room. IF you are referring about the BODY of Christ, I would say that the body of Christ goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.
     

  3. Hi and thanks for your welcome .

    #1 , The dispensation of Grace began with Paul as Eph 3:1-9 and NEVER found in the OT .

    Col 1:25 and 26 , the Dispensation of the Grace of God was hidden from the AGES and from Generation as it was given to Paul in Eph 3:2 and NEVER to the 12 apsotles .

    #2 , Agreed that today , ALL are saved by Grace , in this dispensation !!

    #3 , In Acts 9:6 , SAUL responds , LORD/KURIOS/JEHOVAH what wilt thou have me do ??

    SAUL called Jesus LORD , and 1Cor 12:1 says this , " and that no man can say that Jesus is LORD/KURIOS/JEHOVAH , but by THE HOLY SPIRIT .

    This why SAUL is saved by the Grace of God and is BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ and becomes its PROTOS/FIRST member as also proven by 1 Tim 1:15 , and the word " chief " is the Greek word " PROTOS/FIRST . There is NO Water in 1 Cor 12:13 !!

    #4, This is why the Body of Christ began in Acts 9:6 and where the Grace of God and the Dispensation of the Grace of God began .

    If anyone desires to check STRONG'S , look up the Greek GRACE.CHARIS , and see if you find it in the OT ???

    But , Paul develops GARCE and the theme in his letters .

    Be careful in Acts 9:17 as the Greek Article " the " is not used in verse 17 and is talking about , Power of Holy Spirit and and not the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit .
     
  4. I understand your thinking BUT IMHO you are confusing the church with grace.

    The church was a mystery...YES, and Paul expounded it and explained it but that was NOT the beginning of grace.

    Gen. 5:22.....
    "And Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him.
    Gen. 6:8.....
    "And Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord."
    Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

    The requirement for salvation has always been faith but the operation of it began in the GRACE of God. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God.

    Psalms 2:12.........
    “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” .

    Gen. 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness and that is confirmed in Rom. 4:3-8. The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Heb. 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race. Every drop of blood shed from a sacrifice POINTED to Christ.

    What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Gen. 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed in a Messiah that God promised him would come. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it. Adam was also instructed on the importance of a BLOOD sacrifice which pointed FORWARD toward that Messiah. We know that because Abel brought such a sacrifice which means Adam taught him as well.

    Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross.

    IF, we believe that only those IN Christ will be in heaven, according to John 14:6, are we not then required to place the Old Test. saints INTO the body of Christ as believers in the promise of a coming Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ?
    NOT the church, but the body of believers in God.
     
  5. Good posts major, I am reminded also of Zech 3:1,2,3,4. The Grace of the Lord is unarguably manifested during the Old Testament period. What ever did or could Joshua the priest do to deserve cleansing and a new wardrobe?.....Nothing, but by the Grace of God he was spruced up.
     
    Major likes this.
  6. We don't have to agree, do we?
    It was Grace that imbued the Spirit of God that acted through the Apostles after ascension. I don't know how you can claim it didn't happen until Acts 9, unless you just seek reason to not be baptised?

    Peter, James, John, weren't?

    Fair argument, but you'd have to wonder why they still water baptised, PAUL too!

    That would mean Jesus Prayers in John 17, were denied by God. God denying Christ's prayers where he actually asked that God do something, is a theological nightmare for me. IF God won't answer Jesus' prayers, why should I ever pray I have no chance.
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

    So, that ONE Spirit filled and performed miracles through the disciples post ascension. What was that?

    That was the Spirit acting through Grace, right? They were with the Spirit, right?

    And in Paulinian theology, the ONE BODY would mean what....?
    Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. (NASB)

    Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [fn]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (NASB)
     
  7. 1) No, the Dispensation of Grace began with God before Genesis 1:1.

    2) Yes he was. So is everyone else. Nobody is saved by the law.

    3) And did Saul repent and be baptized?

    4) No he wasn't, because Stephen was converted before Paul.
     
    Major and Xian Pugilist say Amen and like this.

  8. Hi , and many have said that there was Grace in the OT , SO show me a verse ??

    There is a BIG difference between Grace and the Dispensation of the Grace of God , HIDDEN from the Age and from Generations as Col 1:25 says .

    See , from STRONG'S , how many times you will find CHARIS or it's equivalent in Hebrew !!

    Paul is our Apostle for the Gentiles and defines what the Body of Christ !!
    How you get into the Body , 1 Cor 12:13 .
    Grace or the Dispensation of Grace began with Paul and not in Genesis , and find dispensation of Grace in Genesis , you will not !!

    You will find it in Acts 20:24 ; Rom 16:25 and 26 ; Eph 3:1-3 ; Col 1:25 and 26 !!

    I will later show that Paul never Baptized /BAPTIZO , and this a translitered word , because in English we do not have a English equivalent !!

    There is a big difference to be PLACED/BAPTIZO into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit OR to be BAPTIZO/POWER in Acts 9:17 , where the Greek article " the " is not used nor in the Greek text and I can point to over 50 times !!

    There is a difference between EKKLESIA/CHURCH and the Body of Christ , so look up the word CHURCH in VINE'S and letts see what you find out what EKKLESIA really means ??

    dan p
     
  9.  

  10. Hi , and we may not agree and you like it or discard it , as we all have a choice .

    But the Dispensation of the Mystery is not found in the OT !!

    DAN P
     
  11. I would just like you to answer the objections, not just sit there and preach AT us M.A.D. doctrine.

    When you ignore what people say and just repeat things, it's not conversing, it's lecturing. I can go anywhere I want and hear a lecture i DESIRE to here. This is supposed to be a conversational forum.
     
  12. Be careful what you ask for.....................

    Genesis 5:24
    KJV
    "And Enoch WALKED with God and he was not for God took him".

    Genesis 6:8
    KJV
    "But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord".

    Genesis 19:19
    KJV
    "Behold now, thy servant hath fouund GRACE in thy sight and thou hast magnified thy mercy which tho hast showed unto me in saving my life". (Speaking of Lot).

    Psalm 45:2
    King James Version (KJV)
    "Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever."

    Zechariah 12:10
    King James Version (KJV)
    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
     
  13. I agree with that!

    The mystery of the CHURCH is not found in the Old Testament.

    BUT that is a differant issue that the grace of God.
     

  14. Hi , and I believe the MYSTERY of the Body of Christ is not found in the OT , and to me that is the correct way to write it .

    You do not see the word EKKLESIA /ASSEMBLY until Jehovah leads Israel out of Egypt !!
     
  15. dan p posted:
    If'n yah don't mind my commentin pilgrim, but y'all are hard to follow here.
    In Greek grammar, the Article does not necessarily have to be used. It is used to clarify or avoid confusion where indefiniteness could exist.
    The referred to text does not use the word 'Baptizo', so what is the point you are trying to make?????
     
  16. And with all respect to you and no aregument is intended, but IMO we are still talking about two differant things.

    I agree with you that the "CHURCH/ASSEMBLY" was a mystery in the Old Test. and Paul was given the ability to exp[lain the Chrch in the New Test.

    BUT the BODY OF CHRIST has to begin even before the Creation of the world. That is the basis for Predsestination" my dear friend.

    I have said this before but repeat so as we can undewrstand clearly what we are talking about.

    POSITIONAL AND PRACTICAL.

    The POSITIONAL beginning of the Body of Christ took place in the mind of God before time began (Eph. 3:9; II Tim. 1:9).

    Now that is not open for thought, debate or opinions. It is the claer Word of God to be read and understood and yes...accepted as truth.

    The Body of Christ itself remained a secret hidden from man until, in His own time, God initiated the Dispensation of Grace and revealed its message to the Apostle Paul. This was the PRACTICAL beginning of the Church, which is ALSO Christ's Body.
     
  17. Definitions, definitions, definitions:(
    John 6:56,57,58. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
    Did not anybody take bread and wine at the last supper? Was not the last supper prior to Christ's crucifixion and Saul's conversion?
    John 15:5. "“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. " Were none found abiding in Christ til after Saul's conversion?
    Surely the vine and it's branches are of the one and same body. Surely it is the body of Christ and not the body of Paul that is under discussion here?
     
    covered_by_grace likes this.
  18. You might find value in what 1 Clement has to say about the Church. Around the 25th or so chapters, spread out over about a dozen it's riddled with comments on how it should look. This would be a person who may not have witnessed Christ, but was taught directly by His disciplies and functioned as an elder under at least one of them. So I'd think his views, from a historical perspective, would be more valid than our assumptions 2k years later, right?



     

  19. Hi , and the A MANUEL GRAMMAR of the GREEK NEW TESYAMENT by DANA and MANTEY gives the Origin , Function , The Regular uses of the Article on pages 135-153 /

    The Article points to a " specific " thing and Bullinger has written a book on it's explanation and is important , dan p
     
  20. And at bible.org, their NET BIBLE ONLINE STUDY tool has the NET translation, done by people who write the books those in seminary use to learn the languages. The NET Bible has a ton of translator's notes to explain the dilemmas, and if you search on bible.org for the verse, you'll find fifty commentaries on it easily.

    Dan, anyone can find a book on anything. I know of one that says Jesus wasn't born as a man.
     

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