How The Devil/satan Deceiveth The Whole World

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Bro.tan, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. Okay. I understand not wanting to continue this discussion here. :) I will just answer a few of the things you wrote, Paul

    I had written:


    Yes. Those who have joined themselves to Israel.

    I guess I would have to disagree here, too, Paul. G-d Himself said in Deuteronomy that His Torah was not too hard to keep.

    :)
     
  2. Absolutely. One of the purposes of Israel is that they protect the Words of G-d for themselves and for the nations. However, He never made the new covenant with anyone but Israel and Judah, and those united with them -- and we know that the two kingdoms will be reunited.

    Well, it has been good. Thank you, Paul. :)
     
  3. The Law is impossible to keep and God designed it that way.

    Legalism is characterized by zeal which can be mistaken for commitment, piety and true holiness. Paul was burdened for his Jewish brethren whom he said, "Have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

    Romans 10:2-4 (NLT)
    I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. 3 For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. 4 For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given.

    The ceremonial and civil law were canceled because these applied distinctively to Israel and foreshadowed Christ's person and work.

    Colossians 2:16-17 (NLT)
    So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

    Believers are now dead to the law's power to punish, condemn, and separate them from God. We are no longer under its curse.

    Galatians 3:10-14 (NLT)
    But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” 12 This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”

    13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith.
     
  4. Then was He in error when He said in Deuteronomy that it was easy?

    That first sentence is, in my opinion, a good definition of legalism. But what many do not understand is that Paul was not thinking of all who kept the Torah. If he was, he was condemning himself. He was thinking, speaking, and writing of those who thought that keeping Torah brought salvation. Another thing many do not understand is the meaning of "end" in this scripture. It does not, in any way, mean stop doing Torah: end means the purpose. "For Messiah is the purspose of Torah."

    I disagree first because the Torah was never divided into "ceremonial" and "civil" portions until years and years later. Torah was never intended to be divided. I disagree secondly because there is no Scripture that says the Torah was canceled. I disagree thirdly because Torah is not purely distinctive to Israel: it includes all those who join Israel, as it did from the beginning. I disagree fourthly because Torah did not "foreshadow Messiah: Messiah was there, working from the beginning [John 1]. He was the One on the mountain when Moses went up to receive The Words, because no one has seen G-d and lived, so with whom was Moses communing? Who did he talk to face to face? Who did Abraham talk with -- the One Abraham acknowledge was G-d, and wondered how he lived through the experience? He is even called the Everlasting Father [Isaiah 9:6]. There are many instances of the pre-Bethlehem Messiah appearing to people, bringing children, etc. This causes even more wonder with regard to the appearances of G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the H Spirit. It fills one with such simple thoughts as we have with pure rapture!

    Of course, those who truly believe are dead to the punishment! Of course, they are not under its curse! But what many do not consider is that the Scripture here was written to Torah-keepers. I know many are not prepared to believe that, but it is true. They were being instructed not to do anything that would cause others criticize them regarding their keeping Torah.

    Since I am assuming that this post is written to me, and any who may believe as I do, please let me reiterate, again, that I have written over and over that obeying Torah never saved anyone. I don't know how many more ways I can write that! What more can I write that will say this so that it is understood?

    I appreciate your concern for my soul, that you are trying to rescue me from being in error. But once again: I obey Torah, as much as is modernly possible without the Temple, because I love the L-rd. I do not obey Torah to gain salvation. I do not obey Torah in order to gain a special place with G-d -- an idea He has shown again and again is impossible.

    Bless you, Euph! I am all right. Really! :)
     
  5. ''easy'' ? I think I know the passage but cant remember the exact address...and everything must be in its context, and the Old Testament MUST yield to the truth in Christ...The law was given by Moses, but grace and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ...and it is made absolutely clear again and again that NO MAN can keep or be justified by the Law of Moses. So if you have a random scripture that could have a different reading, that rejects the New Testament's clear teaching, you would be wise to hear the Voice of Christ and not Moses or the Prophets ...for the Father has spoken from heaven "this is My Beloved Son, HEAR HIM"
     
  6. #286 Brother Paul, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
    First off I do not find doing God's will for me a burdensome thing, it is light and a great joy. But as to the covenant made at Horeb, do not forget, it says you are bound to keep the whole of the law. So you keep the whole Torah (it seems you are implying this, but I know better)? If so, that's amazing...you would be a rare exception, congratulations! The blessings of God be upon you (as they must be)...

    But as you stated "I disagree first because the Torah was never divided into "ceremonial" and "civil" portions until years and years later. Torah was never intended to be divided. I disagree secondly because there is no Scripture that says the Torah was canceled. I disagree thirdly because Torah is not purely distinctive to Israel: it includes all those who join Israel, as it did from the beginning. I disagree fourthly because Torah did not "foreshadow Messiah: Messiah was there, working from the beginning [John 1]. He was the One on the mountain when Moses went up to receive The Words, because no one has seen G-d and lived, so with whom was Moses communing? Who did he talk to face to face? Who did Abraham talk with -- the One Abraham acknowledge was G-d, and wondered how he lived through the experience? He is even called the Everlasting Father [Isaiah 9:6]. There are many instances of the pre-Bethlehem Messiah appearing to people, bringing children, etc. This causes even more wonder with regard to the appearances of G-d the Father, G-d the Son, G-d the H Spirit. It fills one with such simple thoughts as we have with pure rapture!"

    That is the best presentation of the position of Messianic Judaism I have ever heard and yes I see the Word as having come many times before the incarnation...thank you Lord! The shalom of God be upon you.

    Paul
     
  7. Part of the problem I have, which I suppose many others have, is today's privilege of having and reading many versions. I best remember the Scripture in KJVese, so finding it this morning, with both my brain and eyes being half open, may take me a moment. . . .I remember coming upon the Scripture and marking it in one of my Bibles, but which one? I am not a Bible scholar. I'll try looking in my largest Bible. Meanwhile, my stomach sounds like it's playing a mandolin . . . .

    As I am looking for it, I am rereading interesting verses: Deuteronomy 30:15-16. Deuteronomy 32:45-47. Ah! There it is --

    The context is that each one of The Words has been reiterated and explained -- The Words the L-rd G-d had given to Moses on Mt. Horeb [Deuteronomy 4:5], when he went up to receive them, and Israel, saying, "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor taking away from it, that you my keep the commandments of the L-rd your G-d which I command you [Deuteronomy 4:2]. Then each one of The Ten Words are gone through and explained [Deuteronomy 5:1-26:16]. Following are the curses if The Words are not kept and the blessings if they are kept [Deuteronomy 26:17-28:68]. [Deuteronomy 29:1] "These are The Words of the covenant which the L-rd commanded Moses to make . . . . and so on.

    The Scripture says, ". . . and you call to mind in all the nations where the L-rd your G-d has banished you . . . .where the L-rd your G-d has scattered you . . . . to the ends of the earth . . . . from there He ill bring you back [Deuteronomy 30:1-4].

    And this is where G-d Himself has Moses write that it is easy: Deuteronomy 30:11-14. Read on through Deuteronomy 30:19.
     
  8. Indeed! Yes!

    Except! I never said that I keep the whole Torah. Rather, I have written many times here that all of Torah cannot be kept because there is no Temple. Further, I have written several times that I, like all believers, must trust grace in the areas where I have not completely obeyed those things commanded. And I have written here that my salvation is not at all dependent upon me, my actions, my "lack of sin." Rather, I have written, my salvation, and the maintenance of it, is completely dependent upon the G-d Who gives me faith, Who holds me up. I have NOTHING more than anyone else -- the very thought of that makes me cringe, because I know who I am, and I know that I am So Far from anything imagined as some super-believer.

    Again, you are very kind. Thank you so much . . . .
     
  9. #289 Euphemia, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
    God has never said that obeying His commandments is easy. He knows they are impossible. No one can keep them. they were not meant to be followed. They were meant to reveal what sin is, and by the commandments, sin proliferates more.
     
  10. Then what shall we say regarding the Scripture above?
     
  11. God has never said that obeying His commandments was easy, because it is impossible. He knows we cannot obey them. That was not the purpose for which He created them. As for the instructions given through Moses, He says they are not too difficult to UNDERSTAND. Yet, we all know the unfaithfulness that Israel has displayed to God since the beginning and the broken fellowship with God that Israel has experienced over and over again, to this present day. They have been unfaithful, but God is ever-faithful.
     
  12. Okay. I am not one to argue. :) Bless you!
     
    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  13. So I don't see how this relates to the clear point I made...of course the law of Moses is going to point to the law of Moses...I don't understand why some cant see the difference between the OLD and NEW Covenants?
     
  14. #294 TezriLi, Jun 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
    Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. I think so, because I thought I answered you. ??? :)

    ________________________________

    I went back up and looked at what I had written. You mentioned concerns re the surrounding Scriptures, so as i looked for the text, I mentioned how the Scriptures around the text related to the text. Not being a scholar, or one who easily remembers references, I had to look for the text I had mentioned -- the one about it being easy for us.
     
  15. Very simple the law promotes the law, the OLD Covenant has been fulfilled in Christ. This is not hard to understand, so why are some so blind to this truth? Paul explains ...

    2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
    8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
    9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
    10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
    11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
    12 ¶ Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
    13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
    14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
     
  16. Paul said in Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Before you can start any task you must first know about it and without the key of knowledge we are lost. "...thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make the wise unto salvation..." (II Timothy 4:15). However, with all the various doctrines (teachings) it's hard to know which road to take. Many claim that it really doesn't matter saying, "you serve God your way and I'll serve God my way." Since the Lord is the author of eternal salvation we can only obtain it by serving him his way (Hebrews 5:9). Some choose to rely on the wisdom of their pastor by putting his word above God's word. Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Jesus warned us in Matthew 6:13, 14 that the road to salvation is straight and narrow and that only a few of us will find it. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen). Many contend that Jesus did it all and now all we have to do is have faith. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"(James 2:20).



     

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