How has God preserved His Word?

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by JJ483, Jun 7, 2016.

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  1. So I was wondering for all who really follow Textual Criticism how has God preserve His Word?

    To be honest I have never care for Textual Criticism, especially Lower Criticism which ask questions like did Mark write, Mark 16:9-20 or did John write John 7:53-8:11. The two biggest passages out of many, that many modern scholars and theologians consider spurious.

    In other words I have trouble understanding how a Christian can say that God wasn't powerful enough to keep His love letter that He wrote for us from being tamper with or destroy by the devil and his cronies.
    ...Yea hath God said... Genesis 3:1 IMO these words of the devil spoken to Eve are the same words used by many theologians with Textual Criticism. Please if i am wrong someone please explain to me how?
  2. The devil doesn't change the word of God, translators, professors, scholars, and human bias change the word of God. God gave man free will, choice, to choose life or death. With that choice given to all is the reason there are 100s of English translations. Don't make the word of God, God Himself. The word of God is super powerful for those that have the Holy Spirit. If one doesn't have the Holy Spirit, they can't understand even if it's 100% accurate. It takes the Author to understand the Poem He wrote. Don't worry about the text, be concerned with the relationship with the Author and He'll guide you to the truth, if you're willing to listen and obey.
    Case, Cturtle and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  3. The devil does not change the Word of God?

    God : Thou shall surely die "
    Devil : Thou shalt NOT surely die .

    Paul I think in Romans speaks of those who change the truth into a lie .
    Well they are simply doing the devils work for him.
    Dont worry about the text?
    "Not on jot or tittle " said Jesus was not unimportant;and if a man takes from the Word or adds to it let him be accursed says God.

    True it is that God can has and does keep His Word.
    The text also .
    It is man who by his carnal thinking at best and by inpsiration of the devil at worst that changes it to suit himself and his own thinking.

    The Holy Spirit who was needed to inspire men to write the Holy scriptures is the same Holy Spirit who is needed to understand what is written also.
    For if a man is neither heard or understood unless he gives his life or breath to his words .How much the less is God not heard or understood unless we have the Holy Spirit also?

    If you have the Word but not the Spirit you will dry up.
    If you have the Spirit but not the Word you will blow up/.
    But if you have the Word of \God and the Spirit of God you will grow up.

    Paul warns the church not to be like those who entered not in" because of unbelief."
    Unbelief is not just not believing God.
    It is believing the WRONG message .

    in Christ
    JJ483 likes this.
  4. Thanks for your comments, but don't be so quick to judge. The op was about Textual Criticism, not verbal, so, no, the devil doesn't change the word of God, men do at the behest of the devil. Even the originals were penned by men filled with the Holy Spirit.
  5. Textual criticism says it all really .
    For what the devil did verbal he has by the intelect of men and thier textual criticsm has done to the written Word.
    For men now subject the scriptures to their minds and reasoning ,Rather than subject thier minds and reasoning to the Word of God.
    We have now a 'church' that thinks God does not know His own mind and needs a plethorah of men and versions to teach Him.
    There are many men and as many opinions as there are men .But I know of only one God that can be called God in very truth and while men know the things of men by the spirit of men . Only the Spirit of God "knoweth the mind of God" and the deep things of God"
    IF the church of God is ever to grow up and come to a "unity of THE faith" it will needs must also come to the same understanding as God in matters pertaining to it .
    For faith comes not just be hearing the Word of God , for if that was so all would be saved who heard it. But by understanding the Word of God.
    There is more confusion in the church than there is understanding and THE Gospel has bene reduced to the barest minimum of being BORN again . and even that is disputed by some .
    In truth the the church does not know God as it thinks it does . For how can it when by the same 'textual criticism ' rejects half of it as myths and the like . Well if 'you' do not believe the Book of |Genesis and Him who inspired them to so write it .Then how can you come to know "Him who is from the beginning"?

    To have a unity of THE faith (as oposed to 'faiths') you needs must have a unity of understanding to be "of the same mind" think the same thing .
    To see and understand as the Holy Spirit with the Word of God would have us so 'see'
    For faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things as yet unseen .
    You cannot and will not have a unity of THE faith with a multitude of versions and by textual criticism ,You will have a unity but it will be a unity of error and confusion.
    and a unity not on the truth and Christ at the centre . But a unity that glorifies man and neither speaks the truth about man or of God.

    I suppose I should say that no one can change the Word of God . For it liveth and abideth forever.
    But men can believe that which is not the Word of God but sounds like it and has little words added to it or a jot or a tittel .
    The Word of God was not changed when the devil added "not" .They did indeed die on the day they ate of it .
    But to what profit to them was the Word of God that says "Man shall not LIVE by every tree that was good to eat , but by that word that came forth from his mouth as to what was good to eat and what was evil to eat"?
    For it was the rejection of that LIVING Word that they died.

    in Christ
    JJ483 likes this.

  6. The authenticity of the Holy Bible has been attacked at regular intervals by atheists and theologians alike, but none
    have been able to explained away the mathematical seal beneath its surface....
    This complex system of numbering visibly and invisibly saturates every book of the scriptures emphasizing certain
    passages and illustrating deeper or further meaning in types and shadows. The 66 books of the Bible 39 in the Old
    and 27 in the New were written by 33 different people.
    JJ483 likes this.
  7. God rewards those who Diligently Seek Him. One Huge Reward is Truth and Understanding of His most Holy written word.

    Then what man writes has little effect to your gain in understanding God's Word.

    No bible version is without add ins and yes this includes the K.J V
    Blessings.....obtw Abdicate......this is written as to add to what you said and in no way take away from. :D
    popsthebuilder, Cturtle and Abdicate says Amen and like this.
  8. I have only heard two that is 2 ARGUMENTS against the KJV .
    1) Its seeming archaic language . Yet on the one hand no one complains about William Shakespeare . But far more relevant is that words are expressions of thought and Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts and should reflect then a higher form or more perfect expression of English .
    and archaic? If you still wish God is the Ancient of days .
    2) Verses that are asserted are not in the original text . Yet never show how those verses contradict the rest of scripture.
    In 40 years as a christian I have never found the KJV wanting either in its accuracy of English and its practical use in study.
    Moreover it is tried and tested in the fires (literally) of adversity and has always had Gods blessing on it .
    I have found much to object to in most if not all modern translations ,Even to the very first verse of the Bible were nigh on all modern translation have it trnaslated wrong.
    I object then in the strongest terms your assertion made in an aside with nothing to back it up.
    What I do find is that despite the many claims to a "better understanding " of them all . The church does far LESS with the asserted better understanding than the church which by that measure had so little understanding .
    Nor is it as Holy .
    Nor if faith comes by hearing and understanding the Word of God is there any greater faith that is of THE faith , But rather a great falling away from THE faith each going their own way yet strangely all going in the same direction . A unity of 'faith' but not of THE faith that was given to the saints .

    You are quite mistaken then when you say what men write has little effect .
    For the devil changed the truth "Thou shalt surely die" into a lie simply by adding " N O T" and men believed it (and still do )
    If there was no evil consequences to addign to or taking from the Word of God why do think God warns of the consequences if any do such a thingf?

    What a man sows that shall he reap .
    If he sows corruption he will reap corruption.

    in Christ
    JJ483 likes this.
  9. The KJV is not a perfect translation. Actually no translation can be. But God's word is powerful enough that the Holy Spirit can use it. Even if the KJV or any other translation were exactly translated like the originals, or even if all of us knew and understood within cultural context the originals, it would still be hid to the lost. I used to be KJV only to the nth degree. But now, I go to the originals when in doubt and get all the definitions from them. Even still, I must have the Holy Spirit, the Author, to explain to me what it truly means. My biggest complaint of late with the KJV is the deliberate mistranslation of sabbaton. But you can read up on that in another thread.
    Cturtle and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  10. Hi Gerald,
    I think you did not understand what I was adding to what abdicate said and took you in a different direction.

    For starters I said....God rewards those who Diligently Seek Him. One Huge Reward is Truth and Understanding of His most Holy written word.

    Key is the word Diligently. This goes beyond simply reading or going to church. It is a commitment that one makes as to seek God's face or heart and do all that is written in His word.

    I said one way He rewards us is a deeper understanding or truth in His word. The Holy spirit will teach and move more so in this type of environment.

    Thus limiting ones need to ask men or seek men on what you are taught. Think about it, if God shows you some truth, why would you care what some one else thinks. Does God need man's approval? No!

    Now about my statement that no version is full proof not even the kj.

    OK I will give one reference for you But I am not going to get into a debate about it. You can choose to dig into this and find out for yourself or just stay thinking along the lines that you already are. :D

    Look at Romans 8:1 in the king James
    It reads......there is therefor now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.

    Translaters added everything after the first coma for in the original writings it stops at Christ Jesus. Should be a period and not a coma.

    Any words or phrases you find in italics have been added to the original text.

    I have been searching God for more correct writing and He has been leading me to them and teaching me what was said and meant in many things so far.

    I hope this is more clear to you this time.
    God Bless you Gerald
    popsthebuilder and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  11. All punctuation too is added, both in the Hebrew and Greek. How important is punctuation in English? Here's an example:

    Man, killed that guy!
    Man killed that guy!

    One is to beat a guy at some game. The other is murder. One little comma! Apply this to Matthew:

    Matthew 6:11-13 (KJV) Untouched
    Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. ​

    Matthew 6:11-13 (change punctuation and connector words)
    Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our debts. As we forgive our debtors so then lead us not into temptation, indeed deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. ​

    A big difference in meaning! The first verse is just a laundry list prayer. The other version puts the onus on us, which is more in line with all the other verses in the word of God. The KJV version implies that God leads us into temptation because the "prayer" is asking Him not to. That's evil. James says we are tempted by our lust, not by God, which is more in tune to the second version. "As we forgive..." Our actions have a cause and effect, just like every other verse in the word of God states!
    Cturtle and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  12. "Because He is God" I know how simple that sounds but I believe that. How He has done it, (and I believe He has) I have no idea other than He is God.
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  13. What knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man? Likewise then what knoweth the things of God save the Spirit of God.
    In as much as the holy Spirit was needed to inpsire men to so write the scriptures so in the same measure is the Holy Spirit needed to undersrstand what has been inspired to write .
    I object to bad translations that demean ,reduce and corrupt the written scriptures .
    I object to men who have no spiritual understanding taking it upon themselves to 'translate ' the scriptures leaning more upon their supposed knowledge and understanding of the original texts than upon the Lord who leads us into all truth .
    The KJV clearly states what is of scripture and what has been put into italics in the hope of giving a better reading /understanding of the verse in question.
    What it has not done is add or subtract from that Holy inspired Word when they translated it into English .
    God is not a Jew ,Nor is He Greek or Arab nor indeed is He English .
    For all the languages in which the Bible has been translated into as also the original languages are of men .
    God is well able to communicate his MIND and thoughts to any man via the Holy Spirit as he so wills and thus give an accurate translation and meaning of the scriptures into any language .
    For what are words if not expressions of thought?
    and who knows the mind of God save the holy Spirit only.
    and who can instruct God ?
    God does not need a myriad of 'versions' to express what He desired and desires to say .
    and if any man boasts in their understanding of Greek and hebrew let him understand that the Pharasses knew it far better than any and Saul of Tarsus even more so ?
    yet did they understand the scriptures ? no .
    1. As I have said before all modern versions save one has Gen 1:1 translated heavenS . The KJV has it HEAVEN and rightly so. The 'Student Bible ' has it "In the beginning God created the SKY and the EARTH" the most absurd 'translation ' or rendition as it is possible to make .
    2. But if you have translated Gen 1:1 as HEAVENS it is a 'reasonable' rendition! A journey starts with the first step and here at the very beginning all of them mislead and take the wrong step from the very first verse.Yet they boast in their better understanding yet know not the mind of of God nor the scriptures.
    3. In Christ gerald
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  14. Hi Gerald,
    I understand that they add in italics to aid in understanding and that is a good thing until it changes what was originally said.

    As I said before brother I am not going to end up in a debate so as I write my last reply I lift up both of our views unto our Heavenly Father and ask in the name of Jesus that God though the Holy Spirit would begin to speak to us inwardly and guide us in all truth over this topic..In Jesus name amen.

    Love ya bro and have a great day !
    Cturtle likes this.
  15. But it's heavens in the Hebrew. That's the original. הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם
    1. heaven, heavens, sky
    a. visible heavens, sky
    1. as abode of the stars
    2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc

    b. Heaven (as the abode of God)

    Despite the dictionary, in Hebrew it's always plural.
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  16. Q) How has God preserved His Word?

    Psalm 12 tells us that God will preserve His Word. How is not our concern.

    'The words of the Lord are pure words:
    As silver tried in a furnace of earth,
    Purified seven times.
    Thou shalt keep them, O Lord,
    Thou shalt preserve them
    from this generation
    For ever.'

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    JJ483 and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  17. This has been gone through before.
    and others with a more perfect knowledge of Hebrew can argue the Hebrew better than I .

    Surfice to say that the Hebrew word CAN be either plural or singular .
    That many if not all make it but plural does not in any way shape or form abnegate the singular .
    But the very passage of Genesis chapter 1 proves the case that you do not take ONE verse in isolation .

    For is it not written "In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH "?
    AND WHAT DOES VERSE TWO SAY? and onwards.

    It speaks only of the EARTH not the heaven or even heavens at all.

    2) "and the EARTH was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep "

    if you take in the beginnign God created the HEAVEN ........................................and the .............................................EARTH.

    It was not HEAVEN that was in darkness it was the EARTH .
    For heaven " needs no sun or moon for God is the light thereof"
    and it was thus that the EARTH that was in darkness and need the light of HEAVEN .
    and it was not God who was in darkness "For God is light and in Him there is no darkness ...."
    But it was man who was and is in darkness "and they that sat in darkness have seen a great light"

    Thus it is HEAVEN and EARTH . For God is a God of order and the order of things is both visible and invisible .
    Heaven where Gods throne is andall the host of it and the EARTH the dwelling of man .
    For God" did not create the earth in vain but made it to be inhabited"

    Go down the chapter 1 and you will find and the waters that were above and below the firmanent ;and the firminant he called HEAVEN .

    What heaven then is this if not the sky where bids fly.
    and then there is the other heaven also from verse two of the EARTH "and he made the stars also" thus you have three heavens .
    The first HEAVEN where Gods throne is made in the beginning in the same verse as the earth.
    The second HEAVEN where bids fly .
    The Third HEAVEN where the sun and moon and stars dwell and have their courses .
    Did not Paul go to the third heaven? That is the HEAVEN of first mention?
    The HEAVENS OF CHAPTER 2 verse one then has HEAVENS for its speaks of the generations of the EARTH and its HEAVENS .

    To any HEBREW scholars ask yourself when the firmament" is called HEAVEN " what Hebrew word is used?
    and what word is used in "thy kingdom come thy will be done on EARTH as it is ion HEAVEN" ?
    and what HEAVEN did Daniel and Ezekial see?

    It is therefore beyond all reasonable dispute that it should be HEAVEN and not heavens . in chapter 1 :1 .
    and past posts on the subject has proven the Hebrew of HEAVEN as it can also be uised as heavens . The question is why did they who boast in thier so much "better understanding" get it so wrong?
    o such a simple matter .
    Save by a carnal mind that would by its very nature omit heaven from its mind . and by others have rendered it "sky and the earth."

    I should add fro clarity that HEAVEN where God has chosen to dwell and have his throne is also a created thing as all the host of them .
    Which simply adds to my argument and in no wise detracts from it .

    in Christ

  18. Thank you for trying to stick to the OP Abdicate; but actually Gerald was pretty much right on with the question I was asking. And although many may consider me to be KJVO, I happen to be a KJVP, but will admit to being TRO. I love the KJV and consider it to be the complete Word of God without error but also love other Version based on the Textus Receptus; such as my Geneva Bible and Webster Bible Translation. One of the most beautiful verse on the Trinity is not even accepted by most Christians as scripture but consider an add on. I John 5:7, which is quoted by Cyprian in 250 AD as scripture is considered by most modern scholars as being a later add on around the time 350 AD.

    Then we have two passages of 12 verses each which modern scholars all love to question Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11. Along with Matthew 17:21 and 18:11 just to mention a few of the many passages that modern scholars question. Than I hear how no major doctrine is effected by these questionable passages. And to my way of thinking and if I understand right Complete, Gerald, and Noblemen agree. God has promise to preserve His Word and if He hasn't He is a liar, and God doesn't lie so the Doctrine of God preserving His Word is very major.

    Paul seems to have even to have known of people like this, for writing to the Corinthians the 2nd time He writes;
    For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. II Corinthians 2:17

    Even Peter speaks of being born by the Words of the Gospel which to my best reckoning if modern TC is right we no longer have a pure gospel:
    23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass, the grass withereth , and the flower thereof falleth away;
    25) But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.
    I Peter 1:23-25

    Peter the man who more than likely dictated to Mark what to write in his gospel, according to modern scholars, ended the gospel message in darkness, for according to TC, Mark last 12 verses were added on. They ignore the fact that Peter stresses the power of the Resurrected Christ, and baptism in his two epistle.

    I just can't understand how no major doctrine(s) is/are not effected if God did not preserve His Word completely for us.
  19. Not all questions are asked as seekers of the light .
    The very first question recorded in the Scriptures was by the devil and full of subtley was it.
    "Yea hath God said....."
    The objective of the question was not to get understanding or sought light but rather was to get a 'religious' debate going in the midst of which he could sow doubt and confusion first then his lie .

    The devil loves to use scripture to ensnare Gods people . He did it with the Lord but then he omitted parts of scripture or misapplied them.
    The ONLY way to "overcome the wicked one" is to be filled with the Word of God and the Spirit of God even as the Lord was.
    Forit is only the Holy Spirit who knows" ALL scripture....." as also the mind of God as also where every part of scripture works with every other part and when you know the truth the truth will make you free.
    That 'knowing' is the same knowing as Adam "knew his wife eve"
    It is an experiential knowledge of the truth . Not a knowledge of Greek Hebrew or for that matter of English.
    even as it is n ot enough to have "heard of God " but one must also come to an experiential and continual knowledge of God .

    In Christ
  20. Time for a Hebrew lesson:

    השמים translated as The Heavens

    The issue with this is that Hebrew is a concrete language and doesn't do well with abstract and "heaven" or "heavens" is an abstract translation. So how do the Hebrews see this word? First we're going to remove the ה from the word.

    שמים which means desolate a possibility as it was all void but it gets better. ש and מים which shem (ש) as a prefix meaning as, leaving the rest of the word meaning waters. This makes perfect sense since the sky is filled with water and the sky above that is unbreathable like under the firmament - waters. Now that is a concrete word and a play on the word which Hebrew is filled to the brim with. The skies are like as waters. Same word. Praise the Lord! God is so cool!

    Which is interesting since even in English we say sky or skies, water or waters, with subtile differences in meaning. God is specific and He shows that there are more than one heavens. And we know how perfect God is and accurate in His writing.
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