Honest And Sincere...

Discussion in 'New Members Welcome' started by Belanos, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Nope, you are not getting it. We have free will. But God is all knowing. These two can co-exist believe it or not. And God uses evil people for his purposes, just like he uses satan to strengthen our faith. But now it is your choice whether you are for or against God. Whatever you chose, God knew you would chose it, but it doesn't mean you didn't make that choice. Yes God did make people knowing they would go to hell, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved.

    Romans 9:21-23
    "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,"

    Now it is up to you, freewill creature, are you a vessel of wrath or mercy?
  2. Well, I am impressed that you noticed God did endure with Pharaoh with much Longsuffering and patience. Most take that scripture as God picks who gets screwed or not.

    Not so impressed with the comment about God using Satan to strengthen our faith though. There is nothing to back that up, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, (Not help the devil out) and the kingdoms Jesus said are not divided.

    The only scripture that shows to give the faith we already have strength is praying in the Holy Ghost, building up our most holy faith.

    Nothing about the devil needing to help strengthen faith.

  3. Well what did he do with Job? Satan tried Job to test if he was faithful to God, and because he was God blessed him double. So in this case satan is a tester of the faith, he is used to give us trials to overcome.

    How about 2 Corinthians 12:7 ? Where it says that Paul was given a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of satan to keep him from being proud. In this case satan's actions were used to keep Paul humble before God, that's pretty important I'd say!

    God has used my past knowledge of occult/satanic things to help me identify it better now as a Christian! And from the corruption and evil of people used by satan I am better persuaded to stay away from him.

    But it's just my view, and is in no way a topic of great importance.
  4. I use to also be in satanic worship. Thank you Jesus for mercy.

    Paul's Thorn was the messenger of Satan to stop him. It was not because Paul was proud, Paul said I have reason to Glory but a fool to do so. God had nothing to do with that messenger. Satan does not want the gospel preached.

    What was Paul's Mistake? Your part right about it, but Paul fixed it by saying something in Philippians about what He learned.

    And NO, God never sent a crazed demonic evil spirit to Murder Jobs kids. God is not the murderer of Children of a man that obeyed him.

    Satan said If You God put YOUR HANDS on him, Job will bless you to your face. (Salute back, give credit to) You do it God.
    God said, pay attention stupid (Behold means look and see) All Job has is in your power, just don't touch him.

    The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!'
    (Job 1:11)

    Ya, gutless translators translated Barak to the Word curse only in Job. Satan did not use any Hebrew word for curse. He said in effect Job will blame you. To acknowledge back or salute back. Barak.

    You already know what happened to Job though. You gave the revelation in another thread. You just don't realize it. God had absolutely nothing to do with harming Job. Job harmed Job.
  5. Well we are drifting away from the real issue here. This is Belanos's thread and he is asking the questions, so let's answer him.
  6. Sounds good, need him to respond back though.

  7. Hi Michael, Thanks for your reply. Just to be clear, you believe that God is not omniscient, in other words, God does not know everything?
  8. Hello again Cosmic Waffle (love that name!) Your response above points out the problems here. I can see how God being all-knowing and free will exist, or at least I see your viewpoint there, but the problem is this very simple fact....If God is all-knowing, he knows ahead of time what "free will" choices we will make. Later you say "Yes God did make people knowing they would go to hell, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have chosen to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved." Do you see the problem there? If that person had decided to believe, God would have known that ahead of time too. Your sentence, that I just quoted, says that God wouldn't have known that the person would eventually choose to believe. You are saying that God doesn't know everything.
  9. Thanks you guys, I appreciate that. Although you bring up many interesting topics to discuss later! I would especially love to hear your testimonies as I was involved in the occult too for a while. I didn't quit because of Jesus though, I just quit because it was a waste of time.
  10. I gave one scripture, if you would like more then I have a bunch of them. We need to believe God according to what God said, not what others make up or believe because of religion.

    My point is, if God actually is waiting on our choices and is not picking them for us through some election or foreknowledge then we are responsible to respond to him.
  11. Thanks Michael, I'm just asking so I can be clear on where you are coming from before we go on. So even though you didn't answer yes or no, from your reply I'm assuming the answer to the question "Do you believe God does not know everything?" is "yes". Is that correct?
  12. Hi Belanos, thanks for the compliment :).

    Now, the main point I have been trying to make is what God knows or doesn't know is irrelevant. It is ultimately our choice in this life as to whether we will be saved or not. You don't know what God has foreknown, so you don't know if you're going to hell or not, only he knows. So because of that you can still be saved, we don't live in some sick universe where people literally CAN NOT be saved. You can be, and it's your choice. Now, whatever that choice is, I think an eternal God would be smart enough to know ahead of time. But again, the point is you are still the one making the choice, regardless of God's knowledge of the future, which we cannot know.

    It is not God's will that people go to hell. He makes people with the free will to chose him, but if they don't it's their own faults. Let's say I go preach the gospel in some town somewhere. A man hears me, and considers what I have said. He chooses not to believe it and to go on in ignorance. Now, is it God's fault he is going to hell, or his? And could he not sometime in the future change his mind, like people often do?

    And please keep in mind, you are speaking to a man stuck in time and space. I'm sure if we had God join the conversation it would all make sense. I could be wrong for all I know. But what about this doesn't make sense?
  13. What I have is lots of scriptures indicating that God has a plan for each person on the Planet. Like Jeremiah who God said I knew you in the Womb, I have ordained you to be a prophet.

    God knew, created and planed for Jeremiah. Now if Jeremiah obeys God or not, is up to Jeremiah.

    All I am saying is, God never showed a far reaching foreknowledge about any single person in the bible. He knows a persons heart, has far reaching wisdom, but Hearts are dynamic and can change.

    God would send a Prophet to let a king know they are going to die, but the King changes his heart and repents, then God changes according to what the King did.

    Deu 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    What you choose, gets recorded. If God had knowledge if you would make it or not, then He would not bother recording choices. He would already know.

    He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    (Luk 13:6-8)

    Jesus said this. If the tree is not bearing fruit, then put dung around it and help it. Give it a chance.

    And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
    (Luk 13:9)

    Jesus is telling us how God operates. Jesus did not say........... "Now, Now, I am the Lord, I know this mans beggining from the mans ending. Don't wast dung and time on this tree, as I already seen into the future and know this tree will never produce fruit. Now, now."

    Jesus tells us exactly that God does not know. God knows the heart, give the tree extra help, if it produces fruit, then great, if not then cut it down.

    So, I am not telling that I know and can explain what God knows. I do have scripture and many more to prove God does not have foreknowledge about us and if we make it or not. That is not how God does things or by nature can't do things.

    Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

    If God is not thinking evil, but thinking of his plan for us and us making it. Then God does not have this foreknowledge people claim that we are going to hell or not.

    That is scripture. I stick only with scriptures, I don't get caught up in all the religious nonsense others do.
    When you present your arguments about God, then it's fair that we at least find out what God said and not what others make believe God should have said according to what they want to believe.

    Believers will tell you God lives outside of time and bla, bla, bla.............. No scripture to back a statement up like that. No scripture that tells us God knows what a man will choose 10 years from now.

    We do have scripture that if you do the will and plan of God, His path for you is laid out and it's a great plan.

    I do know God is good, Healed my son of terminal cancer, Was there when they wanted to give 18-90 years in prison, Healed many around me and helps me.

    God is real, and good.
  14. Hi Belanos,

    Let me ask you this first and after you answer, I will gladly answer your initial question and this question relates to your question, so it is not a tangent.

    How do you think we exist, if you don't think it isn't by God?

    If you say by a big bang, well that isn't logical. Explosions usually cause destruction and anyway then the question of where the original elements came from would then have to come into play, like were the elements always there? What caused the existence of those elements? If you say by evolution, again one would have to ask where the original elements that everything evolved from came from. Were they always in existence? Was intelligence in those elements and if not then how can any system of living be without intelligence within it to make all the functions of the being work together in harmony to keep that system or being alive.

    If you say, I don't know, then that seems like it "was created by iron-age, uneducated men who didn't think it through" since there has always been atheists and agnostics.

    So how do people exist if not by God?

    The only intelligent answer that I see is that intelligent, never ending, all powerful God created us, since the intricacies and details of a person and their internal systems would require intelligence for them to be created.
  15. I asked God this the other day because it doesn't make sense. The fact is-- what makes sense to God sometimes we cannot wrap our brains around it. I believe every person serves a purpose in Gods plan. Now, that may seem cruel to you, but for believers, this is where humility steps in. We must realize He knows why and it's ok if we don't.

    The bible says God wants all people to be saved. Who knows what He knows and what He doesn't. god omnipotence may be more intricate than we can conceptualize
  16. For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
    (Mar 4:22)

    One thing that is not taught enough is that God is Love. Not that God loves, but is Love. It's a nature of something. Paul tells us it's something that passes our understanding. Omnipotent used once does not denote fortune telling. It's the knowing of all things. God knows more about fixing cars than we do, knows how many hairs on our head. Can calculate everyone schedule and tell you how many cars will cross a certain light by knowing when everyone will leave and what route they will take.

    Love however............. Has Zero Knowledge or plans (Election) that somebody they created is going to be eternally roasted in Hell. Love by nature can not grasp that.

    God has to judge in a negative way at times. He judges according to our actions and what we have done. Not according to some election or foreknowledge.

    Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

    It's never God's will to even have to afflict. Not his plan or foreknowledge to do so......... Men force his hand by their actions.

    Elihu speaking to Job. (You know the only one that spoke on God's behalf and youngest)

    Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

    What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water? Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men. For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God. Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
    (Job 34:7-10)

    Believers accuse God of all kinds of evils. It really makes it hard for nonbelievers to want to have anything to do with God. We are believers should minister Scriptures only, and not our air castle religions. Elihu tells Job straight way, that God had nothing to do with what happened to him, nor gave the devil any permission to harm him.
    It was Job's fault, he gave the devil a place and God will not pervert His Word to stop him.

    Instead, we tell nonbelievers that God sent a evil monster to murder the mans children. We are cold that way, because I can promise that for me loosing a child would be very hard and grievous. Believers just say... "OH, the Great God who knows everything was testing Job. So Job lost a few kids, big deal."

    The God that knows everything needed to test Job................................. Just dumb.

    people think I am strange Allie, because I rub their religion the wrong way. I have something called Scriptures though and why most won't answer me back with scripture because they don't have any.

    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Does Love who has no pleasure in watching anyone die, really have foreknowledge of them not making it? Love thinks that way?

    We have to watch what we tell the unsaved............. For God Found iniquity in Satan. Not something He foreknew or created but Found in him. Found it in the Garden of Eden.
  17. Ok. I should have clarified that it's ME that isn't sure. It's ok to be humble and admit you don't know something but it is true that God wants all to be saved and that He works all things out for the good-- also that there is purpose in every being created.
  18. Yes, I also find it hard to believe that God just closed his eyes and dropped spirits into bodies without a purpose then later used a crystal ball to find out how it worked out for everyone.

    We are fearfully and wonderfully made. With Purpose.

    I can give many scriptures that prove God does not know outcomes of each person. I can show how he knows though.

    Gen 18:19
    For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

    Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

    Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

    These scriptures don't fit my concept of what God should be, but I can't find one that says different. NOT ONE and I have been looking at this subject for over 10 years.

    It appears God responds by knowing us and our heart. Not by some foreknowledge or some election.

    We also see that if God speaks something, then it hides knowledge from man and it always comes to pass. God declares the end of things and his counsel stands fast, no matter what man does. The picture as a whole, not each person as each person has a choice.

    Someone asked me why Israel did not cry out sooner. Why wait 400 years in Egypt's oppression?
    My best answer is that they would not have known to do so, or who to cry out to.

    This is what God said:

    Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

    God's plan, and nothing changes that. Why though? Because at the time of Abraham, the children of Noah would have been alive and Israel was scattered (what little there was of them). God empowers Pharaoh to be King and collect wealth and while under Egypts rule, Israel is in one place and multiplied.

    And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
    (Gen 15:14)

    The plan was not to afflict them, but to gather and bring them out with all Pharaoh's stuff.

    Finding out who Love is Allie, Paul said in Ephesians that Love passes knowledge. We can just keep looking and believing scripture, asking God to remove our wrong concepts and know God more and more.

    AllieWi likes this.
  19. Ok. I will keep doing that. Thanks, Michael. :)
  20. Hello and welcome to the forum.

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