I understand it does, but it's the context of what scripture is talking about. Aionion in Matt 25:46 should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word. In fact, language experts have stated that no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that meant "eternity" or "endless time." - ATP
Hell not eternal / Study
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I understand it does, but it's the context of what scripture is talking about. Aionion in Matt 25:46 should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word. In fact, language experts have stated that no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that meant "eternity" or "endless time." - ATP
No, Aionios just continues on unless defined in the article.
That is what a Greek Adjective is, unless defined.
The thought would have come from Hebrew, or Olam. Jesus addressed the Jewish people.
The secular Greek-English lexicon by Baue. page 28 stated that Aionios means no begining or end - Eternal.
Strongs and Thayer both also say the same thing.
Why you claim it does not is a mystery.
Hebrew did not have a Word that really meant everlasting. It did have a meaning of this age and the age to come. There was a Hebrew Eternal age to come or the age after death.
Gehinnom Was the place in Judiasm where the wicked went, Hence Jesus used that expression.
Gan Eden was the place the good guys went.
The two groups were split in Jesus day One the Saducees did not believe in a life after death.
The Pharisee's belived in Gan Eden and Gehinnom.
This belief is still in Judiasm today.
Hebrew had different words to describe the age now, times of age and for the age to come.
Chayim Olam Means Eternal life.
Haolam Ha-ba Eternal life in the life to come.
Chayei Sha'ah Fleeting life in this World.
Olam Hazeh Departed go for ressurection.
Olam Ha-Techiah Good folks go to Gan Eden, bad folks go to Gehinnom. (For 12 months depending on the sect Like Cathloic purgatory)
This was the Jews belief, and still carried out today.
So when Jesus used Gehenna, and said the fire is never quenched, He was speaking of a physical place, but also to their beliefs of the afterlife.
We still have Abraham in hell (Hades)
There is no other way to look at it......... Eternal punishment is real.
That is what a Greek Adjective is, unless defined.
The thought would have come from Hebrew, or Olam. Jesus addressed the Jewish people.
The secular Greek-English lexicon by Baue. page 28 stated that Aionios means no begining or end - Eternal.
Strongs and Thayer both also say the same thing.
Why you claim it does not is a mystery.
Hebrew did not have a Word that really meant everlasting. It did have a meaning of this age and the age to come. There was a Hebrew Eternal age to come or the age after death.
Gehinnom Was the place in Judiasm where the wicked went, Hence Jesus used that expression.
Gan Eden was the place the good guys went.
The two groups were split in Jesus day One the Saducees did not believe in a life after death.
The Pharisee's belived in Gan Eden and Gehinnom.
This belief is still in Judiasm today.
Hebrew had different words to describe the age now, times of age and for the age to come.
Chayim Olam Means Eternal life.
Haolam Ha-ba Eternal life in the life to come.
Chayei Sha'ah Fleeting life in this World.
Olam Hazeh Departed go for ressurection.
Olam Ha-Techiah Good folks go to Gan Eden, bad folks go to Gehinnom. (For 12 months depending on the sect Like Cathloic purgatory)
This was the Jews belief, and still carried out today.
So when Jesus used Gehenna, and said the fire is never quenched, He was speaking of a physical place, but also to their beliefs of the afterlife.
We still have Abraham in hell (Hades)
There is no other way to look at it......... Eternal punishment is real.
Interpreting scripture is all about translations. Please re-read post#81.
The word kolasin and timoria, and the fact that the word eternity didn't even exist in Jesus day.
Olam does not mean eternal. Dan 12:2 NIV / Olam - In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.
The idea of ECT is based on the idea that man is immortal. This however is not the case. The Scriptures teach us that the Father alone is immortal. Therefore, if man was to suffer ECT, God would have to keep him alive for eternity. However, eternal life is the gift promised to the believer, not the unbeliever. The Scriptures state plainly that the wicked will die. Even Jesus said, God sent His Son that whoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The comparison in Scripture is between death or perishing and eternal life. It's not between eternal life and eternal torment. There are a few passages in the New Testament that are used to support the idea of ECT, however, as I've pointed out olam and aionios are wrongly translated forever or eternity. It is this wrong translation that give existence to this idea of ECT.
I never said Olam meant eternal. What I said is there were expressions which I gave the Hebrew for the Jewish people had at the time.
They also belived in a bad place close to the name of Gehenna which was an actual place, or got it's name from the eternal place in Joshua's time. (Nobody knows)
Jesus used their own term, a Hebrew Word not a Greek word.
3 Greek text by accepted Greek Scholars say your wrong about Aionios.
I am not sure what text your reading, but your ideas come from the universalism much like the SDA and very strange.
We also have Abraham in Hell, speaking to someone who was also there on the hot side.
Jesus said some go to eternal punishment, some to eternal life.
The whole concept of what Jesus said is both are eternal one bad, one good.
Aionios was also used for God's glory, His eternal Glory.
If Aionios did not mean everlasting then God's glory must run out someday.
Eis Aion Aion was a Greek expression for age on top of age forever without end. Used by John in Revelation when describing this thrown into the Lake of fire. It's unending and forever and ever.
You have to do lots of word play to remove simple concepts.
However, Abraham describes Hades for us and what it was like. Just that passage alone should be enough to understand there is a place of fire and it's eternal. People are aware there, and even reconize each other.
Why you think all these Greek scholars are wrong, is a mystery. When Greek Secular text who don't even believe in God say Aionios is eternal, knowing that means not believing in God means hell but still are honest with the way the Word should be translated says a whole lot.
What scripture are you referring too.
Luk 16:24-26 kjva 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Note 1 Luke 16:19-31: Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. {abhorred: or, despised}
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:18-22 KJV)
Jesus has the Keys of Hades. Hades gave up it's dead to be judged. Folks can get thrust down into Hell.
Hell has a sting........ (Paul)
Now I am not sure what you mean by "Parable" but Abraham gave a pretty vivid description of the place.
A Parable would be Jesus telling us something in the natural as a story of wisdom, to explain how spiritual things work.
The Characters of the Parable would never have a name and the place would also not be important.
So your given a pretty vivid description of Hell (Hades/sheol) which should convince you that there is eternal punishment.
Scripture should overcome any doctrine in my book.
Hell has a sting........ (Paul)
Now I am not sure what you mean by "Parable" but Abraham gave a pretty vivid description of the place.
A Parable would be Jesus telling us something in the natural as a story of wisdom, to explain how spiritual things work.
The Characters of the Parable would never have a name and the place would also not be important.
So your given a pretty vivid description of Hell (Hades/sheol) which should convince you that there is eternal punishment.
Scripture should overcome any doctrine in my book.
Why is Hades used only once in the entire Bible as hell fire? and it's found in Luke 16:19-31. Doesn't that seem strange to you.
No, It's just a description of a place. Jesus has the keys of Hades, Jesus people are thrust down to hades. Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of fire.
With the physical place and the Jewish belief (Some of the sects) of Gehanna being a place for bad folk when they die it would make sense to mention it......
Jesus though told them the fire is never quenched. Some believed it was a place like Purgatory.
So if we have a description of a place folks are thrust into, then good enough.
People are aware there, we see awareness in Sheol/Hades in the Ot.
No issues.
But only Gehenna is considered the place of hellfire, so why would Luke use Hades as hellfire. It's strange to me.
I guess ask Luke when You see him, but Luke wrote by the Holy Spirit so it's the correct Word. I don't question things, I just believe them.
I also don't have any doctrine but God is good. So I don't care about trinity, or election or the idea of no eternal punishment. The concept is there and clear enough.
If Aionios is not eternal, then a whole lot of others things are not eternal. The glory of God being one of them.
Sheol is Hades in Greek. Gehenna was a place bad folks went that some sects believed. (Still belive today)
It was also an actual place.
I have to believe Jesus was refering to what Abraham described.
IN the Jewish place you only went for a span of about 12 months, depending on who you asked. Jesus said that place is not like that, the fire never goes out, there is weeping and gnashing of teeth there.
It's Hades where all the dead ended up, and it's Hades God brings everyone out of to judge.
Jesus grabbed the keys of Hades from the devil. So it's Hades that is the issue.
The Gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church.
I am not going to visit though to see for myself.
That is a 1st.................someone disagreeing with me!!!
It seems to me that you are trying to expound upon the teaching of Annialation in a round about manner. Maybe I am wrong but that is what it looks like to me.
By using names and believing in symbols and so forth it looks like a way to spiritulize the Scriptures instead of accepting tyhem simply as they are.
May I say to you, if that is the case..........please understand that there is NO, ZERO, NADA Scriptures that support the Annialiation theory.
The only way it can be considered is that you take Scriptures which do not speak to Annialiation and MAKE them say so by "spiritualization".
In plain talk, "Forever " means FOREVER. If I am wrong please forgive me but as "By Faith" said.........this false teaching is very popular with people like the "Jehovah's Witnesses," who do not believe in a literal and eternal lake of fire for the punishment of the wicked. Annihilation is the belief that the wicked will be totally destroyed at some point in the future, and that no ETERNAL place of torment exists. The Lord Jesus Christ believed otherwise (Mat. 25:41; Luke 16:24).
Well, I'm not a JW, I'm a born again Christian who studies Hebrew and Greek. Secondly, forever and ever is an English translation of ages of the ages. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, not English.
You sound a whole lot like SDA though. You got this doctrine from somewhere.
The doctrine has to ignore concepts, Ignore other Accepted Greek Scholars and I gave 3 respected references.
Has to ignore Abraham giving a descripture of a very hot place. Some say... "Well that is just a Parable.........."
It was no Parable, but an actual account.
Have to make Aionios not eternal in just the places they choose. When it is just a Greek Adjective that continues on forever unless defined in the article like all Greek Adjectives.
SDA is the only other I can think of that get confused about these things. There are some other forms of it, but these are normally small groups.
We may not have Exact Hebrew and Greek to explain spiritual things but we do have the concept in the Article.
You don't take natural language make it dogmatic, and expect to not miss concepts of things human language needs many words to explain.
One reason Christ was not translated.
Abraham's seed has a everlasting covenant. That covenant is forever though the Hebrew Word does not exactly mean that. Even today we are the seed of Abraham.
There are things by concept and spiritual that are true, despite the proper and exact word being available.
Salvation in Greek has nothing to do with eternal life or anything spiritual. It means to be healed and protected. Physically.
It was though the only Word best to describe a new spiritual concept. It can mean both.
Saved is the same thing........ Means to be healed of something physical.
If we use the same rule of understanding, then there is whole lots of healing to believe for and very little Eternal life........ well not even eternal life is Aionios is not eternal, but has a end age (Which it don't)
Staying concistant with this dogmatic understanding of language is not good. The concept of the spiritual is what is important.
False doctrines do not stay consistant in understanding though. It's a hallmark of false doctrine. We would also have to understand Salvation, saved, Christ as their actualy non spiritual understanding if we were to do that with one word, it must apply to all.
It's not false doctrine, everything I've applied to my posts have been backed up with Hebrew and Greek translations.
In the New Testament we have in Greek..
the “age of the age,”
the “age of the ages” and
the “ages of the ages.”
Do you understand that an "age" has a beginning and an end? For example, the word aion is used several times to mean a period of events which were before these periods, for example before the ages. See 1 Corinthians 2:7 and 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, and I could go on and on. You will look in the New Testament and it says that there were events before there were the ages or before an aion. Obviously aion cannot mean eternity, can it? 8 If it is “before an age” and age means eternity, how can you be before eternity? It is an impossibility. Eternal hellfire is not the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23 NIV). If the lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, then the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26 NIV
You did not read a thing I said. I am not against you using Greek and Hebrew. I am against going against concept with using a language of man that was not designed to explain spiritual things.
Jesus said there is eteral punishment and eternal life. The concept is that both never end.
Abraham described Hades for us, we should at least take his word for it.
God's promise to Abraham was for a everlasting covenant......... it's still in effect today, though the word used
Gen 9:16 kjv+ And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
You know that Rainbow is in his throne room for ever and ever to remind him? We still have them today.
You find someone to say what you want the scripture to say. You don't care what the scripture means.
If someone says it means different besides what you want it to mean because you don't like Hell, then it's you that are in error.
Both BDB and Strongs gave Olam a definition of everlasting with a whole lot of other things it could mean.
In this case, that Rainbow is not going anywhere, ever.
So before you Ignore Jesus telling us through Abraham about this place of torment and you tell others.
you better be right. 100% right.
Then you better explain why God's Glory is not Anionios, why Salvation runs out and why hell is not eternal punishment.
I could say the same. If the lake of fire is the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, then the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26 NIV. End of story.
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