Hell not eternal / Study

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That's exactly my point: If people and/or the devil will be annihilated anyway, there's no point in making them suffer first, since they won't remember it anyway, and those who no longer exist aren't going to learn any lessons. Of course Jesus is in control, but that has exactly nothing to do with answering the question. If the wicked are consumed, meaning (according to you) that they will be annihilated, then there was no point in having them suffer for any length of time.

Also, consider this: the righteous dead go to the Bema Seat, but the unrighteous dead go to the Great White Throne judgment. So the division between righteous and wicked is made before the judgments even begin. And as you noted, judgment is according to our works. So the two judgments are on the basis of having already determined where we will spend eternity, and then all that remains is to determine the degree of our blessing or suffering according to our works. So again, there is no point in making the wicked suffer for a limited time and then annihilating them. There would be no point in weighing their works, since they will cease to exist and won't remember anything. The whole judgment is thus a farce, if your viewpoint is correct.

Well, what's the point in them suffering forever in the valley Gehenna while the rest of the believers live in happiness. How is it possible for a believer to live in happiness forever while the valley is burning of bodies forever. Nothing about burning forever makes sense. It's not biblical and is based on old philosophies and fictional stories, like Humpty Dumpty.

No, you made that up. Or somebody did. You have still not faced the fact that scripture explicitly states the eternal conscious suffering of the devil, beast, and false prophet, in the presence of the Lamb.

I didn't make that up Relentless. We all have a choice to accept Christ as Savior. God isn't the God of torment, he is the God of love. The devil is the one that torments you, not God.
 
Well, what's the point in them suffering forever in the valley Gehenna while the rest of the believers live in happiness. How is it possible for a believer to live in happiness forever while the valley is burning of bodies forever. Nothing about burning forever makes sense. It's not biblical and is based on old philosophies and fictional stories, like Humpty Dumpty.
The point is that there are eternal, conscious consequences for what we believe and what we do in this life. But if the wicked are annihilated, there is no point of having them suffer first. And you have not answered my question.

I'll address your other questions after you tell me what point there is in making the wicked suffer and then annihilating them.


I didn't make that up Relentless. We all have a choice to accept Christ as Savior. God isn't the God of torment, he is the God of love. The devil is the one that torments you, not God.
You didn't get it from scripture, that's what I mean by making it up. Of course we all have a choice, but God is more than just love; he is also holy and just. The devil is NOT who torments anyone: Revelation 14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
 
The point is that there are eternal, conscious consequences for what we believe and what we do in this life. But if the wicked are annihilated, there is no point of having them suffer first. And you have not answered my question.

I'll address your other questions after you tell me what point there is in making the wicked suffer and then annihilating them.

Yes, and the eternal consequence is not obtaining eternal life.

You didn't get it from scripture, that's what I mean by making it up. Of course we all have a choice, but God is more than just love; he is also holy and just. The devil is NOT who torments anyone: Revelation 14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Yeah, I'm the one that made up God is love and the devil torments you. Seriously?
These are facts of life and common knowledge.
The devil doesn't torment you?
Maybe it's good for you to start reading the book of James and Job and learn what temptation is.

James 1:13-15 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
 
Yes, and the eternal consequence is not obtaining eternal life.
No, the annihilated know nothing of eternal consequences. There is no consequence when you're unaware of anything.

So you still haven't answered my question: what's the point of suffering and then being annihilated so you can't remember that you suffered or why?

Until you answer that, I won't be responding to you further.
 
So you still haven't answered my question: what's the point of suffering and then being annihilated so you can't remember that you suffered or why?

Until you answer that, I won't be responding to you further.

and you still haven't answered my question: what's the point of suffering forever?

Until you answer that, I won't be responding to you further.
 
and you still haven't answered my question: what's the point of suffering forever?

Until you answer that, I won't be responding to you further.
Don't play these juvenile games with me, ATP. I asked you first.

You won't respond because you have no answer. It is utterly pointless to torture the wicked and then annihilate them, and there's no way you can weasel out of that fact. And why would a loving God torment anyone for any length of time? You can't have it both ways, ATP. Scripture says you're wrong.

Now try and come up with an answer or expect to be put permanently on my ignore list.
 
Don't play these juvenile games with me, ATP. I asked you first.

You won't respond because you have no answer. It is utterly pointless to torture the wicked and then annihilate them, and there's no way you can weasel out of that fact. And why would a loving God torment anyone for any length of time? You can't have it both ways, ATP. Scripture says you're wrong.

Now try and come up with an answer or expect to be put permanently on my ignore list.

And you have no answer also, because you and I are not God and some answers you leave to God.

Gehenna is on earth, and Gehenna will be renewed one day. If the fire kept burning of dead bodies, there would be no New Earth. 1+1 =2.
 
And you have no answer also, because you and I are not God and some answers you leave to God.

Gehenna is on earth, and Gehenna will be renewed one day. If the fire kept burning of dead bodies, there would be no New Earth. 1+1 =2.
Fine, putting you on ignore permanently... forever... without end.

Scripture is from God and says that the wicked will be tormented day and night in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, which would serve no purpose to those who will be annihilated anyway. Nothing you can do to change that or pretend God didn't say it.

Gehenna was on earth, and the Lake of Fire never was on earth and never will be. Never, as in never ever. That's what God says in the scriptures. Goodbye.
 
No problem. If anyone would like to continue, we shall..

The scripture of (Jer 31:38-40 NIV) speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

The term "lake of fire" is used symbolically to describe a very very large pile of dead bodies inside the valley, where the bodies will be burned. At that point the place that is the "lake of fire" is literal, but the name is symbolic. For example, the word "lake" simply describes "a valley" of dead bodies being burned. The beginning of verse 40 describes the lake of fire, "The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown".

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

This scripture speaks of Gehenna the Valley of Hinnom and dead bodies, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV. Isa 66:24 also is referring to when the 1,000 year reign with Christ is complete Rev 20:5 NIV.

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Isa 66:22-24 NIV
 
No problem. If anyone would like to continue, we shall..

The scripture of (Jer 31:38-40 NIV) speaks of the Valley of Hinnom one day being made holy to the Lord, never to be uprooted or demolished. It also mentions dead bodies and ashes, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV.

The term "lake of fire" is used symbolically to describe a very very large pile of dead bodies inside the valley, where the bodies will be burned. At that point the place that is the "lake of fire" is literal, but the name is symbolic. For example, the word "lake" simply describes "a valley" of dead bodies being burned. The beginning of verse 40 describes the lake of fire, "The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown".

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV

This scripture speaks of Gehenna the Valley of Hinnom and dead bodies, the same ashes in which we will trample under our feet Mal 4:3 NIV. Isa 66:24 also is referring to when the 1,000 year reign with Christ is complete Rev 20:5 NIV.

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Isa 66:22-24 NIV

I am not sure I understand your position but the "Valley of Hinnom" in Jeremiah 7:31 was where the people sacrificed their own children to Molech. It will also be a place where they themselves will be killed. It is a real place.

However, Verses 38-40 are referencing the 1000 year rule of Christ and Jeremiah’s prophecy about the extension of Jerusalem’s boundaries indicates that the valley of Hinnom or Gehenna will eventually be included in Jerusalem, which represents the holy city, the saints. Is that what you are trying to say?????

This then is significant in the light of statements by Jesus about Gehenna; he referred to it as a judgment, that Christians are encouraged to avoid, at all costs, even if it means suffering the loss of an eye, or a hand, or a foot. The valley of Gehenna was the most undesirable place known to the Jews of that day.

Now.....the "Lake of Fire" and "hell" are the same place. Both refer to the ultimate place of punishment for those who die without Christ.
Revelation 20:14-15 is the basis for that comment............
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

The problem is that Bible translators have not been consistant in their translations of the terms..."Gehenna and Hades".
Most study Bibles will tell you that when you see "hell" it is used to translate the word "HADES".

The prophecy of Jeremiah shows the intended results of the judgment that Gehenna represents. In Revelation 7, two groups are described. The first group, of those who are sealed, represent the saints, who are also described in Revelation 14:1-5. They are “the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
 
I am not sure I understand your position but the "Valley of Hinnom" in Jeremiah 7:31 was where the people sacrificed their own children to Molech. It will also be a place where they themselves will be killed. It is a real place.

However, Verses 38-40 are referencing the 1000 year rule of Christ and Jeremiah’s prophecy about the extension of Jerusalem’s boundaries indicates that the valley of Hinnom or Gehenna will eventually be included in Jerusalem, which represents the holy city, the saints. Is that what you are trying to say?????

This then is significant in the light of statements by Jesus about Gehenna; he referred to it as a judgment, that Christians are encouraged to avoid, at all costs, even if it means suffering the loss of an eye, or a hand, or a foot. The valley of Gehenna was the most undesirable place known to the Jews of that day.

Now.....the "Lake of Fire" and "hell" are the same place. Both refer to the ultimate place of punishment for those who die without Christ.
Revelation 20:14-15 is the basis for that comment............
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

The problem is that Bible translators have not been consistant in their translations of the terms..."Gehenna and Hades".
Most study Bibles will tell you that when you see "hell" it is used to translate the word "HADES".

The prophecy of Jeremiah shows the intended results of the judgment that Gehenna represents. In Revelation 7, two groups are described. The first group, of those who are sealed, represent the saints, who are also described in Revelation 14:1-5. They are “the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”

Good post Major. I agree. I guess what I'm trying to say is that since the Lake of Fire will be on earth, it is impossible for hell to be eternal since the valley will be renewed and purified, thus the New Earth. - ATP
 
Good post Major. I agree. I guess what I'm trying to say is that since the Lake of Fire will be on earth, it is impossible for hell to be eternal since the valley will be renewed and purified, thus the New Earth. - ATP

But what Scripture exists that tells us that the Lake of Fire will be on the earth my brother?

Did you not just answer your own question?

Since we have no Scriptures that say the Lake of Fire is on the earth, the earth can then be renewed and purified, the Lake of Fire NOT withstanding. Now we know for sure that the Lake of Fire (Hell) is eternal because the Scriptures tell us exactly that.

Rev. 20:10 .......
" And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Matt. 25:41......
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

There are NO Bible verses that teach "Annialation", if that is what you are moving toward. I wish that there was as I have many people I know and have known who will be in the Lake of Fire forever and that saddens me greatly.
 
Wow.................. SDA believe this junk. After readthing through, the same old thread like past threads with the same confusion>

Hell has sorrows:
2Sa 22:6 kjva The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

The dead speak in Hell, fully aware:
Eze 32:21 kjva The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.


Defining Hells:

Sheol: Place of the righteous dead (Jews) Place of the wicked also.

Hades: The Greek Word for Sheol

Gehennah: Used in 12 scriptures:

Used in descripture of better to chop off an offending arm than have the whole body cast into Gehennah.
(Mat 5:29-30, Mat 18:9, Mark 9:43-47)

Anyone calls their brother a fool is in danger of going to Gehennah.
(Mat 5:22,

Don't fear man, but fear someone that Can if He wanted destroy both Body and soul in Gehenna. Jesus said God can, did not say He would.
(Mat 10:28) (Luke 12:5)

Used once in James. The tongue sets the fire of Gehenna.

Isa 66:24 kjva And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Gehenna was located in the Valley of Hinnom, and first mentioned in Joshua. It was a place where children and folks were sacrificed to Baal and/or Molech.

Gehenna is not the "Lake of Fire" There is no scripture that connects the two as being the same place.

Jesus used Gehenna as a place reference of another place. Jesus often used physical things to get points across.

The Jews knew that people were burned in the fire as an offering to other gods. So saying they could be burned there was a slap in the face.

Jesus however quoted Isa, and the fire He was talking about was never put out, and the worm never dies. The fires in the earthly Gehenna went out long ago, so He was not referencing that place. He used it as a metaphor.

Jesus also said God can destory both body and soul in Gehenna, so fear God, not man.

The body of man would never make it to the real hell, Jesus was just making a point that God can destory our physical body and soul if God choose to do so. We don't have any scriptures that God actually did that, but Could.

Lake of Fire (pond filled with fire)
A place mentioned in Revelation. Hell (Hades) located in the center of the earth is moved to the lake of fire. The location of the Lake of fire is not given. Since there will be a new earth, nothing corrupt can be here and so Hell is moved to a different location. Being moved does not change Hell in any way, nor is anything mentioned being destoryed by being cast into the Lake of fire.

Simple Greek Aion and Aionios:

Mat 25:46 kjva And these shall go away into everlasting (Aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (Aionios).

2Th 1:9 kjv+ Who shall be punished with everlasting (Aionios) destruction (olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Aion has a age and ending age. The expression used in Revelation (ies Aion Aion) was a Greek expression mean Age without end or forever and forever with no age ending the current condtion.

Aionios is a Greek Adjective. All Greek Adjectives can carry their own definition or can be defined in the Article itself.
That is what a Greek Adjective is. It must be defined or left alone carries it's own meaning.

Greek Abjectives can be modified in the article to mean a thing or stand on their own. They are used to define persons or things.

Blue is a Greek Adjective, and remains blue. If I say blue House, then it becomes a Blue House. If I say Dark blue, then it is no longer blue but Dark blue.

Aionios means forever until defined.

If I say wait here Aionios until John shows up. Then you wait forever how long it takes until John shows up.

If the scripture say Aionios Life, then that is life that never ends. Since the time was not defined in the article.

If I say Aionios Punishment to be away from the Lord. Then that is Punishment that never ends and awareness that you can't ever be with the Lord.

The Greek Adjective gets defined, much like the color blue can be defined.

Heb 9:14 kjv+ How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (Aionios) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If Aionios is not everlasting or eternal. Then God's Spirit is not eternal and everlasting.

Anyone that does not believe in eternal Punishment, does not believe God is eternal, that Salvation is not eternal, His Glory is not forever.

They would have to believe that and there is no eternal life (If they were of sound mind and stayed consistant). Othewise, they are double minded and living in the land of confusion.
 
But what Scripture exists that tells us that the Lake of Fire will be on the earth my brother?

Hi Major. In the OP, we see that Jesus uses hell to refer to the afterlife. Hell is translated Gehenna, and Gehenna is on earth. In the book of Matthew we see the wicked being thrown into Gehenna, we also see in the book of Revelation the wicked being thrown into the Lake of Fire. Lake of Fire is a literal place, but the name is symbolic to describe Gehenna. The majority of the book of Revelation is symbolic in nature. - ATP

Gehenna is not the "Lake of Fire" There is no scripture that connects the two as being the same place.

I would simply disagree.
 
Lake of Fire (pond filled with fire)
A place mentioned in Revelation. Hell (Hades) located in the center of the earth is moved to the lake of fire. The location of the Lake of fire is not given. Since there will be a new earth, nothing corrupt can be here and so Hell is moved to a different location. Being moved does not change Hell in any way, nor is anything mentioned being destoryed by being cast into the Lake of fire.

The term "Lake of Fire" is only used as a symbolic name to describe Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom.

nor is anything mentioned being destoryed by being cast into the Lake of fire.

I would disagree. We see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV

Simple Greek Aion and Aionios
:

Mat 25:46 kjva And these shall go away into everlasting (Aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (Aionios).

2Th 1:9 kjv+ Who shall be punished with everlasting (Aionios) destruction (olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Aion has a age and ending age. The expression used in Revelation (ies Aion Aion) was a Greek expression mean Age without end or forever and forever with no age ending the current condtion.

Aionios is a Greek Adjective. All Greek Adjectives can carry their own definition or can be defined in the Article itself.
That is what a Greek Adjective is. It must be defined or left alone carries it's own meaning.

Greek Abjectives can be modified in the article to mean a thing or stand on their own. They are used to define persons or things.

Blue is a Greek Adjective, and remains blue. If I say blue House, then it becomes a Blue House. If I say Dark blue, then it is no longer blue but Dark blue.

Aionios means forever until defined.

If I say wait here Aionios until John shows up. Then you wait forever how long it takes until John shows up.

If the scripture say Aionios Life, then that is life that never ends. Since the time was not defined in the article.

If I say Aionios Punishment to be away from the Lord. Then that is Punishment that never ends and awareness that you can't ever be with the Lord.

The Greek Adjective gets defined, much like the color blue can be defined.

Heb 9:14 kjv+ How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (Aionios) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If Aionios is not everlasting or eternal. Then God's Spirit is not eternal and everlasting.

Anyone that does not believe in eternal Punishment, does not believe God is eternal, that Salvation is not eternal, His Glory is not forever.

They would have to believe that and there is no eternal life (If they were of sound mind and stayed consistant). Othewise, they are double minded and living in the land of confusion.

I would have to disagree, eternal/everlasting/forever and ever are English translations.

1. In fact, language experts have stated that no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that meant "eternity" or "endless time."
2. Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus.
3. Matt 25:46 Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see.

Dan 12:2 NIV / Olam - In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

Matt 25:46 NIV / Aionios - Greek doesn't really have a word to describe Olam so the translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word "aionion" which is the adjective form of the word "aion" which means an age. In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion". The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal. Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see. Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” television has to be the same size as a “small” radio because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word. In fact, language experts have stated that no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that meant "eternity" or "endless time." Jesus used aionios to give you specifics on what would happen in the next Age, which is, the "Tabernacle Age", where the overcomers will be living in immortality amongst people who are still mortal. Eternal is timeless, so Jesus was letting us know it wasn't eternity. Matthew 25:46 is also man's mistranslation. The word is aionios which Jesus was telling us that the overcomers will live in the next age in immortality, but the evil doers will go into aionios punishment, but the overcomers into aionios life, not eternal life where there is no time, but "life in the ages to come", which has time. What will happen to the evil doers? They will perish to the Age of Tabernacles, and will be raised in the 2nd resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6), where they will be judged according to their works. Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.
 
The term "Lake of Fire" is only used as a symbolic name to describe Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom.



I would disagree. We see here that the wicked will be destroyed, will be no more, perish, consumed, devoured, die, stubble and ashes under our feet etc..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NIV

When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and his fire will consume them. Psalm 21:9 NIV

For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:9-10 NIV

But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke. Psalm 37:20 NIV

But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. Psalm 37:38 NIV

May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God. Psalm 68:2 NIV

But may sinners vanish from the earth and the wicked be no more. Praise the LORD, my soul. Praise the LORD. Psalm 104:35 NIV

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. Malachi 4:1 NIV

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. Malachi 4:3 NIV

Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by. Isaiah 47:14 NIV

The LORD watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. Psalm 145:20 NIV

For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child--both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die. Ezekiel 18:4 NIV

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. Ezekiel 18:20 NIV

Just as you drank on my holy hill, so all the nations will drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been. Obadiah 1:16 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 2 Peter 3:10 NIV



I would have to disagree, eternal/everlasting/forever and ever are English translations.

1. In fact, language experts have stated that no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that meant "eternity" or "endless time."
2. Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus.
3. Matt 25:46 Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see.

Dan 12:2 NIV / Olam - In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.

Matt 25:46 NIV / Aionios - Greek doesn't really have a word to describe Olam so the translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word "aionion" which is the adjective form of the word "aion" which means an age. In Mathew 25:46 Jesus used "aionios" again an adjective from "aion". The reason I say it is mistranslated is because both Olam and aionion are used of things that end. Things that end are not eternal. Jesus is using the same word to compare life and death as in, he's contrasting the wonderful life the believer will receive with the death the unbeliever will receive. That life goes on as long as one can see. Just because “aionios” is used to describe life and punishment, does not mean they have to be of the same length and quality any more than a “small” television has to be the same size as a “small” radio because the same adjective is used to describe both. Often adjectives take on some of the value of the word they describe. Therefore, “kolasin aionion” (mistranslated “everlasting punishment”) does not have to be the same length as “zoen aionion” (mistranslated “eternal life”). Aionion should not have been translated “everlasting” because aion and its adjective are clearly time words that have beginnings and endings. And “punishment” for the Greek “kolasin” is too strong a word. Kolasin means “to prune a tree to make it more fruitful.” There is nothing fruitful about eternal damnation in burning flames. If Jesus wanted to imply vindictive punishment, the author of Matthew could have chosen the Greek word “timoria,” but he didn’t – he used a much softer word. In fact, language experts have stated that no language on earth before the second century AD had a single word that meant "eternity" or "endless time." Jesus used aionios to give you specifics on what would happen in the next Age, which is, the "Tabernacle Age", where the overcomers will be living in immortality amongst people who are still mortal. Eternal is timeless, so Jesus was letting us know it wasn't eternity. Matthew 25:46 is also man's mistranslation. The word is aionios which Jesus was telling us that the overcomers will live in the next age in immortality, but the evil doers will go into aionios punishment, but the overcomers into aionios life, not eternal life where there is no time, but "life in the ages to come", which has time. What will happen to the evil doers? They will perish to the Age of Tabernacles, and will be raised in the 2nd resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6), where they will be judged according to their works. Furthermore, Matthew 25:46 does not speak of individual salvation based upon faith in Christ, it speaks of separation of nations based upon how they treated Jesus. And lastly, the context seems to indicate the judgments would be upon the religious leadership of Israel and those who considered themselves righteous, not street sinners, low-life Jews and/or adherents to other religious systems, that is, the Gentiles.

OK, Strongs and Thayer Greek disagree with you.

Like most folks, they confuse destruction scriptures with destruction of the spirit of man. Zero scriptures denote a spirit can be destoryed.

The spirit goes back to God for judgement (Ecc)
The spirit can also go down (Ecc)

Since you don't believe Aionios means everlasting, then you don't believe God's glory is everlasting, or salvation.

That means your of some other type of strange reliegion that is not Christain based.

You also have no scripture denoting Lake of Fire is Gehanna, you make that up in your own mind without scripture.

So, since you believe God's glory is not forever, Salvation is not forever, then you might have picked the wrong forums by mistake to discuss Christian topics.

I think cults like SDA, and JW's believe strange things like this. Those are only loosly based like Morons on the bible though.
 
Isa 66:24 kjva And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Worm Dies Not: The word "worm" appears in most bibles three times in Mark 9. However, Mark 9:48 is the only time it appears in the earliest and best Greek manuscripts. Mark 9:44 is spurious, and Mark 9:45b ("...into the fire that never shall be quenched") and 9:46 are all spurious. The one time it is used in verse 44, it is a quotation from Isa. 66:24. Worm is translated from the Hebrew word Itola, and is defined as "a maggot." It's one time use in the Greek is from skolex, and also is defined as 'a maggot.' These are not tube worms at the bottom of the ocean, but rather maggots. And as any school boy knows, maggots are not immortal, but rather in a few short days turn into common house flies, which then lay more eggs on garbage, produce more maggots which then produce more flies to lay more eggs... And hence, they do not die [out] but just keep reproducing over and over. I am sure that some of the flies at your last picnic may have been descendants of the very maggots of which Jesus spoke of from the Gehenna city garbage dump at Jerusalem. Now then, what was the purpose of these maggots and fire in the valley of Gehenna? To destroy that which is putrid and worthless; to purge; to purify the city of its garbage. That was their physical purpose and Jesus has the same thing in mind when He uses these symbols, word pictures, and analogies to represent His spiritual sin-purging judgments.

Like most folks, they confuse destruction scriptures with destruction of the spirit of man. Zero scriptures denote a spirit can be destoryed.

But you're not understanding that the spirit came from God in the first place. The reason man has a spirit is because of God.

The spirit goes back to God for judgement (Eccl)

But who gave you your spirit By Faith. (Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.)

Since you don't believe Aionios means everlasting, then you don't believe God's glory is everlasting, or salvation.

Incorrect. Eternal life is forever. Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36 NIV

You also have no scripture denoting Lake of Fire is Gehenna, you make that up in your own mind without scripture.

What am I making up. Jesus describes Gehenna as hell and where the wicked go. The Lake of Fire is also where the wicked go. It's not rocket science. Everything I'm sending you is based on scripture. You also ignored all the scriptures about destroy, consume, etc..

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV
 
If the Lord says the Worm does not die and the fire is never quenched............ And Jesus says the same thing, then it is so.

If you don't believe in Anionios punishment because Aionios is not forever, then you don't believe in eternal life either.

If the Lord says it, then that is how it is. Since no fire continue to burn in Gehanna, then Jesus is using the Word as something the Jews understood, but is speaking of a place that worms don't die, and the fire is never put out.
 
If the Lord says the Worm does not die and the fire is never quenched............ And Jesus says the same thing, then it is so.

Not it is not so. Jesus was using picture language to describe Gehenna.

Isa 66:24 Commentary / http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/isaiah58-66-lbw-nh.htm - This verse describes a terrible scene. It refers to the deep narrow valley called Hinnom. This valley is near to *Jerusalem, on the south side. (The *New Testament uses the *Greek word Gehenna for the *Hebrew word Hinnom – see Matthew 10:28). In the Hinnom Valley, two wicked kings of Israel burned their sons as a *sacrifice to false gods (Ahaz, see 2 Chronicles 28:3; Manasseh, see 2 Chronicles 33:6). And other people copied this wicked behaviour (see Jeremiah 7:32; 19:5-6; 32:35). Later, the inhabitants of *Jerusalem threw their rubbish into the Hinnom Valley. What worms did not eat, fire destroyed. The fire never went out.

Soon, what happened became powerful picture language to describe Hell. Jesus uses this verse, to mean ‘to *destroy totally’ (see Mark 9:48). Isaiah 66:24 is describing those people who refuse to serve God. They refuse to obey God’s instructions. But God is the origin of life. So these people have removed themselves from the God who gave them life. The verse describes their punishment as the extreme opposite of life. They have brought about their own terrible punishment. And that punishment is death that lasts for all time. (See Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10.)

If you don't believe in Anionios punishment because Aionios is not forever, then you don't believe in eternal life either.

Incorrect. Eternal life is forever. Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36 NIV

If the Lord says it, then that is how it is. Since no fire continue to burn in Gehenna, then Jesus is using the Word as something the Jews understood, but is speaking of a place that worms don't die, and the fire is never put out.

But one day the fire will go out in Gehenna. Please read Jer 31:38-40. It tells us that one day Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom will be made holy to the Lord..

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.” Jer 31:38-40 NIV
 
How can you believe in eternal life, but not eternal punishment? It's the same word that means eternity.

You also believe that when scripture talk about eternal life, it does not mean forever.

but you say that scripture saying "They shall not die" mean eternal life.

All the other scripture does not mean that if it uses the word Aionios.

That is some twisted thinking there, and twisted to just remove hell as being eternal punishment. That is a whole lot of work for nothing.

Luk 16:23-24 kjva 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

And here we have a nice description of Hell..........Complete with names and what some of it looked like.

Notice the fire and suffering Jesus spoke about. Notice they are both fully aware of what is going on.
 
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