Hebrew 6:1-11

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." -1 John 1:8
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So, your theory is that John contradicted himself within two breaths. Nice. How does the Bible work like that?

Your verse acknowledges that every one has sinned. Not that they continue to sin forever. You can't slice it to demand you accept people sin forever on earth.

3:6 says exactly opposite of how you imply 1:8 to mean. so does 3:9, 5:18. So, when you have to imply a verse says more than it actually says, so you can claim another verse doesn't say, exactly what it says, I'm calling you on it.

everyone has sinned and fallen short. If you fall short, you can confess and he will forgive. This letter was written so you may not sin. To be in fellowship with Him, you msut walk in the light as HE DOES (did he sin?) and there is no darkness (sin) in Him. Further to be in that fellowship the darkness must be washed off. If you still sin, you do not know Him and haven't met Him. If you are born of Him, your lifestyle of sin is gone, and in fact you can not sin.

Every thought is a verse from 1 john 1-3. I can start tying in parallel verses from John and Jesus, and end up at about 85 pages of just a tag line and a versal address. But it doesn't matter.

You presented a verse discussing being in Jesus. I showed you the test for that. You claim the test is wrong. And it's the same author, same letter, so did he contradict himself and why do you deny the test?

it does no good for us to claim we have what we don't have, right?
 
Losing one's salvation is not at all supported in Scripture. What is, however, is the threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification. These are seen throughout. The verse that makes it all come alive is 2 Corinthians 1:10, "Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;"

Through justification, we are delivered from the penalty of sin (eternal separation from God). Through sanctification, we are slowly delivered from the power of sin as we lay aside every weight, mortify the deeds of the flesh, put on Christ, etc. And glorification is when our bodies will put on incorruption in the last day, when we will be delivered from the very presence of sin.

The work in our spirits, when we are made alive by grace, is known as justification. Sanctification is the work that takes place in our souls as we cooperate with the Word and Spirit to bring us to maturity, done by acts that are in obedience to Christ as we walk this walk, which, if we fail in any way, we lose rank and reward in heaven. (Well supported in Scripture). The work in our bodies in the last days is known as glorification. So, you see, we contain a spirit, a soul, and a body, all of which are referenced in 1 Thess. 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What causes confusion are the Scriptures that describe the spirit as being "filthy" and unholy. Rightly dividing these words, we see they refer to attitude, as when David wrote, "take not thy holy spirit from me." He is writing of his attitude. Or where it is described as "filthiness of the spirit." That too is attitude.

The proclamation by so many church leaders that insists believers can lose their justification in Christ is simply an unfounded claim. Sadly today, believers are not being given much more than the same few messages from the pulpits today, those that their particular assembly majors on. Instead, newborns are to build a strong foundation in the first principles of the oracles of God listed in Hebrews 6:1-2, which, by most of the church, is thought to be laid simply by reading over them. Hogwash! They must be studied deeply, not merely scanned over like a newspaper. Great truths are found within them.

Rather than begin at the beginning, teachers in most churches are sharing pet doctrines that do a disservice to the saints and the whole counsel of God.
 
Losing one's salvation is not at all supported in Scripture. What is, however, is the threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification. These are seen throughout. The verse that makes it all come alive is 2 Corinthians 1:10, "Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;"

Through justification, we are delivered from the penalty of sin (eternal separation from God). Through sanctification, we are slowly delivered from the power of sin as we lay aside every weight, mortify the deeds of the flesh, put on Christ, etc. And glorification is when our bodies will put on incorruption in the last day, when we will be delivered from the very presence of sin.

The work in our spirits, when we are made alive by grace, is known as justification. Sanctification is the work that takes place in our souls as we cooperate with the Word and Spirit to bring us to maturity, done by acts that are in obedience to Christ as we walk this walk, which, if we fail in any way, we lose rank and reward in heaven. (Well supported in Scripture). The work in our bodies in the last days is known as glorification. So, you see, we contain a spirit, a soul, and a body, all of which are referenced in 1 Thess. 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What causes confusion are the Scriptures that describe the spirit as being "filthy" and unholy. Rightly dividing these words, we see they refer to attitude, as when David wrote, "take not thy holy spirit from me." He is writing of his attitude. Or where it is described as "filthiness of the spirit." That too is attitude.

The proclamation by so many church leaders that insists believers can lose their justification in Christ is simply an unfounded claim. Sadly today, believers are not being given much more than the same few messages from the pulpits today, those that their particular assembly majors on. Instead, newborns are to build a strong foundation in the first principles of the oracles of God listed in Hebrews 6:1-2, which, by most of the church, is thought to be laid simply by reading over them. Hogwash! They must be studied deeply, not merely scanned over like a newspaper. Great truths are found within them.

Rather than begin at the beginning, teachers in most churches are sharing pet doctrines that do a disservice to the saints and the whole counsel of God.

Excellant observation my friend! We are in agreement!
 
Losing one's salvation is not at all supported in Scripture. What is, however, is the threefold work of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification. These are seen throughout. The verse that makes it all come alive is 2 Corinthians 1:10, "Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;"

Through justification, we are delivered from the penalty of sin (eternal separation from God). Through sanctification, we are slowly delivered from the power of sin as we lay aside every weight, mortify the deeds of the flesh, put on Christ, etc. And glorification is when our bodies will put on incorruption in the last day, when we will be delivered from the very presence of sin.

The work in our spirits, when we are made alive by grace, is known as justification. Sanctification is the work that takes place in our souls as we cooperate with the Word and Spirit to bring us to maturity, done by acts that are in obedience to Christ as we walk this walk, which, if we fail in any way, we lose rank and reward in heaven. (Well supported in Scripture). The work in our bodies in the last days is known as glorification. So, you see, we contain a spirit, a soul, and a body, all of which are referenced in 1 Thess. 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What causes confusion are the Scriptures that describe the spirit as being "filthy" and unholy. Rightly dividing these words, we see they refer to attitude, as when David wrote, "take not thy holy spirit from me." He is writing of his attitude. Or where it is described as "filthiness of the spirit." That too is attitude.

The proclamation by so many church leaders that insists believers can lose their justification in Christ is simply an unfounded claim. Sadly today, believers are not being given much more than the same few messages from the pulpits today, those that their particular assembly majors on. Instead, newborns are to build a strong foundation in the first principles of the oracles of God listed in Hebrews 6:1-2, which, by most of the church, is thought to be laid simply by reading over them. Hogwash! They must be studied deeply, not merely scanned over like a newspaper. Great truths are found within them.

Rather than begin at the beginning, teachers in most churches are sharing pet doctrines that do a disservice to the saints and the whole counsel of God.
Your reply was very insightful, thank you!
 
I liked your post until the last paragraph.
Rather than begin at the beginning, teachers in most churches are sharing pet doctrines that do a disservice to the saints and the whole counsel of God.
Do you think it is fair to generalize like this?
Over here, we usually start with a topic and work our way through it from beginning foundation to final conclusion, or else we preach on a specific book of the Bible, cross referencing with other book passages as the need arises.
 
I liked your post until the last paragraph.

Do you think it is fair to generalize like this?
Over here, we usually start with a topic and work our way through it from beginning foundation to final conclusion, or else we preach on a specific book of the Bible, cross referencing with other book passages as the need arises.

I didn't intend an insult, merely an observation as to what I have witnessed in churches over the past forty years. The foundational principles found in Hebrews 6 are not being systematically taught within most churches, in a general sense, as even you wrote above that "we preach on a specific book," not principles.

For a full understanding, principles must be searched out through all the books of the Bible. Of all the churches I ever attended, only two offered such systematic teachings which took up to two years of twice daily attendance to complete.

It should be the pattern of all assemblies to ground a new believer in the first principles as the writer of Hebrews instructed. Instead, to whatever predominant catch phrase doctrines the fellowship's leadership are attached, it is these that are repeated sermon after sermon -- not that any or all of the teachings are wrong or in error, although some may very well be -- but that they are presented at such frequency as to dictate the name of the fellowship.
 
A fair look at principles, and a dozen years or so of study, is why I'm considered a heretic by those that most understand me. :) But they still listen and converse and we both learn in our chats.



I didn't intend an insult, merely an observation as to what I have witnessed in churches over the past forty years. The foundational principles found in Hebrews 6 are not being systematically taught within most churches, in a general sense, as even you wrote above that "we preach on a specific book," not principles.

For a full understanding, principles must be searched out through all the books of the Bible. Of all the churches I ever attended, only two offered such systematic teachings which took up to two years of twice daily attendance to complete.

It should be the pattern of all assemblies to ground a new believer in the first principles as the writer of Hebrews instructed. Instead, to whatever predominant catch phrase doctrines the fellowship's leadership are attached, it is these that are repeated sermon after sermon -- not that any or all of the teachings are wrong or in error, although some may very well be -- but that they are presented at such frequency as to dictate the name of the fellowship.
 
The Peril of Falling Away
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Better Things for You
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
***************
VS 1 Most don't understand that Maturation comes after Salvation. Since BE SAVED is all some people hear of the Gospel, they think that IS all there is to it. So if you walk about something MORE than the salvation part, they scream things like no workie to heaven! And get very emotionally distraught. The Church does a disservice teaching SIN CENTRIC theology to drive the salvation message and not give equal or more weight to maturation. Understanding that there are mature and immature Xians reconciles a lot of the "lose salvation" verses. As I understand it, OSAS is not once saved always saved, but once sanctified (fully thus matured/perfected) always sanctified. Which is not the same use of the S word when you discuss salvation. A saved person is sanctified also, but it's a different use of the word. You are set apart in salvation, and made apart in Maturation. The made is the remaking as in finished project. Thus Paul often said he was to present us perfect to Jesus at His return. And most people see that and freak out, NO ONE IS PERFECT!!!!! Which is funny since it was Paul's goal and He said not only himself but others were perfect. So that word, "PERFECT" requires a lot of thought and DECONSTRUCTION of beliefs just to begin to understand it.

VS 2 deals with the Colossians 2 examples of people that go and add extra things trying to be holy to what is the substance of Christ.

VS 3 links to him discussing he spoke different things to those of meat than he did to those of milk. Consider this, those of meat, he may have discussed with, but they didn't need his instruction, they WERE mature. Most of Paul's letters are written to the MILK segment, with comments referencing what is to be, the MEAT of maturity sprinkled in to define what their goals or results will be.

VS 4 Enlightened sounds Eastern Mystic, but is better represented with teh Walk in the Light of 1 john 1. Which is a chapter about maturation as well. Paul ties ENLIGHTENED to receiving the Spirit. I've said several times there is a difference in the Spirit working ON you, vs indwelling you. But most of you, as I was, have heard all your life that the Spirit indwells you period. To hear from someone, in this case me, that you may not be indwelled is athreat and people react defensively without considering it may be true. They cling desperately to what they were taught. I have to ask them, ultimately, is your faith in what man told you it means or in what it claims in the Bible.

But, once the Spirit is indwelled the flesh is gone, what would make you give into temptation to walk away, when that which makes you do what you don't want to do and not do what you want to do is removed? And if you walk by the Spirit and HE won't let you give into temptation, how would you give into temptation to walk away from HIM if you were ever there?

You are saved by Grace before the sanctification occurs. Salvation isn't at risk here, as long as you admit there is also maturation in the conversation vs the all so self serving I AM SAVED AND GOD IS SANTA CLAUS TO GIVE ME WHAT I PRAY FOR theology. You/WE are saved for a purpose. Don't claim the saved, if you deny the purpose.

VS 5 There is no way to conclude something from this verse that would make it lean to OSAS or the way I present it. It could be read either way. But how it fits into what I've said is the point approaching the threshold of Indwelling, or the "act 2" of the event, for you to get to that point, and turn away, deny, would be such an absolute decision it's not like God keeps you from coming back, but you made a decision that will keep yourself from wanting to go back.

VS 6 Goes into my comment above, if you tried the walk of God out, was close to repenting of sin, which is not confession but a change from sin lifestyle, or the Sinful Nature, and at the point the real changes started, or sometime before they were finished said, I like the other lifestyle better, you have hardened your heart and will be incapable of changing...

VS7-8 Refers to the vine and the branches, or the talents, parables. GOd Gives, you are saved to use His gifts for others, that is what love neighbor means. If you don't take His providence and provide for others, or do the works you were saved to do... then you were never there anyway. Thorns and thistles would be one taking the Love of God and cherishing it and not sharing it. OR screaming I AM SAVED and refusing to do any of the works.

VS9 He was convinced the ones he spoke to had a better future, and he's not discussing JUST salvation but also things that accompany salvation. Again, consider maturation vs salvation here. maturation is accompanied by salvation. Salvation is the first step to maturation, errr actually Grace is the first step, but Salvation is the result of Grace.

VS10 references my claim to the doing the works you were saved to do above....

VS 11-12 discusses running the race, and describes it as doing the works you were saved to do, and matches the Ephesians 4 claim that through works you gain unity, knowledge of Christ, and maturation to the point of being as mature as Christ.

I know I'm the only one here that will even consider ful sanctification. But you don't have to embrace that hope/thought to learn salvation isn't all the story, maturation is expected in this life on earth before you die. If you teach everyone it's impossible, how much of a road block do you put before those LITTLE CHILDREN to keep them from getting to the goal of the race Christ set out for them to achieve?
 
I agree with the statement you said about "enlightenment," Xian, for that IS the key.

Having tasted, in full understanding, in full realization of the multi-faceted bitter-sweetness of His Perfect Love, and having rested in His Grace from the shackles of the product of being under the Law - to then turn (harden your heart) and spit it out (reject Him) like lukewarm bile? GOD will need to be the judge of this act. For He alone knows WHEN we've arived to that point, right?

Because He is God, and has provided our Advocate, Jesus the Christ, we can only hope that by power of that same Grace, we can choose to stay humble enough and in tune enough with His Spirit to stay firmly rooted in His Love. HE is the Faithful One.

Also, back to the Vine/branches example: The branch goes dormant, gets pruned, grows again. The dormancy is not a "falling off" of the Vine. It is dormant, stagnant, in need of pruning for further growth. The only part that "falls off" is the stuff the Vinedresser decides to prune off. Then, the Almighty comes along and causes the growth. So, we see the only job of the branch is to stay connected. HE is the one who tends, toils, examines, prunes, fertilizes, waters, and nurtures the branches so He can harvest the fruit. A branch that doesn't produce fruit is pruned. Back to square one.

The branches that are pruned OFF, are gathered...and burned. Pretty plain there.

TO ABIDE is our ONLY JOB. :) Thank the Lord.
 
I didn't intend an insult, merely an observation as to what I have witnessed in churches over the past forty years. The foundational principles found in Hebrews 6 are not being systematically taught within most churches, in a general sense, as even you wrote above that "we preach on a specific book," not principles.

For a full understanding, principles must be searched out through all the books of the Bible. Of all the churches I ever attended, only two offered such systematic teachings which took up to two years of twice daily attendance to complete.

It should be the pattern of all assemblies to ground a new believer in the first principles as the writer of Hebrews instructed. Instead, to whatever predominant catch phrase doctrines the fellowship's leadership are attached, it is these that are repeated sermon after sermon -- not that any or all of the teachings are wrong or in error, although some may very well be -- but that they are presented at such frequency as to dictate the name of the fellowship.
Colour emphasis added by your truly:)
Yep that is exactly what I meant when I said "a specific book of the Bible, cross referencing with other book passages as the need arises."
But no insult taken at all. No umbrage either, my storage area is already full of that stuff:rolleyes:
 
Taken off and burned,,,, circumcision of the sinful nature, no longer with the sinful nature but indwelled by the spirit, strong house on the rock, build with many things on the rock foundation, but they will be tried with fire, I can go on and on, this is one of those points I am told I take out of context, about 35 times I guess, but heck if its not more consistent my way. Those bad parts arw God's to remove. Stop fighting Him for control learn to be poor in Spirit, and give Him. Errrr let Him take control.
 
"For a full understanding, principles must be searched out thorugh all books of the Bible. Of all the churches I ever attened, only two offered such systematic teachings which took up to two years of twice daily attendance to complete.

This is something dearly missing in lots of churches. Sunday School is what we call it here in the US. In depth learning, disecting of the Scriptures, according to the Scriptures.

I love that stuff! Hence, why I was drawn here. :)
 
This is something dearly missing in lots of churches. Sunday School is what we call it here in the US. In depth learning, disecting of the Scriptures, according to the Scriptures.

I love that stuff! Hence, why I was drawn here. :)
And, yet.....

Scripture says we are to learn through lec by church leaders who were taught the bible. Our studies, are our protestant, "we have our own bible" pride. And the fruit of that is not unity but more and more divisions, which is fleshly, not spiritual fruit. How much unity would instantly occur if all the churches shut up about who knows what, and got out and built houses, fed food lines, supplied teachers with school supplies for their underpriveledged kids, stopped campaigning against abortions and clinics and gay marriages, and did the loving acts of faith through love they were saved to do.

I bet catholics s. Baptists, and jehova's witnesses would get along ok if they were all helping a group of needy people.

I'm just saying.
 
And, yet.....

Scripture says we are to learn through lec by church leaders who were taught the bible. Our studies, are our protestant, "we have our own bible" pride. And the fruit of that is not unity but more and more divisions, which is fleshly, not spiritual fruit. How much unity would instantly occur if all the churches shut up about who knows what, and got out and built houses, fed food lines, supplied teachers with school supplies for their underpriveledged kids, stopped campaigning against abortions and clinics and gay marriages, and did the loving acts of faith through love they were saved to do.

I bet catholics s. Baptists, and jehova's witnesses would get along ok if they were all helping a group of needy people.

I'm just saying.

While you have a point, a good point, we should DO more to love the hurting and needy people who surround our homes, schools, and churches. BUT, that does not negate the necessity to learn the basicsand even the complexities of God's Word, just as you have done over the last 12+ years. That's what I'm advocating for, not a coffee and cookies, hand-shakin' feel good hour before worship service. Get deep into the words in Scripture so we know more about Who He is, so we can reflect Him even better. Every new believer needs to be rooted in the Word before sent to the field to work.
 
Its not a matter of IF we should learn but how we should learn. Eph 4, appointed/gifted leaders prepare members for works of service, and THAT is where most of us are to learn. Most evangelicals won't discuss this verse, although not all are like that.
 
While you have a point, a good point, we should DO more to love the hurting and needy people who surround our homes, schools, and churches. BUT, that does not negate the necessity to learn the basicsand even the complexities of God's Word, just as you have done over the last 12+ years. That's what I'm advocating for, not a coffee and cookies, hand-shakin' feel good hour before worship service. Get deep into the words in Scripture so we know more about Who He is, so we can reflect Him even better. Every new believer needs to be rooted in the Word before sent to the field to work.
Some years back I was the Hon? treasurer for our Church. As such, I looked after the purse (not like Mr Iscariot:rolleyes:)
The minister was often approached by people looking for a hand out to buy food(sadly sometimes cigarettes or grog).
I printed out food vouchers with various amounts on them. We had an agreement with the local supermarket and they would honour the vouchers and just send me a monthly account. The danger was and always will be, that if someone asks for $20 and you give them $40, next time they will ask for $60. Those people in need never were interested in any of the outreach programs run by the Church....I think for some, they preferred to remain anonymous.
It is a sad mixture, pride and poverty.
 
The church I associate with, trades them financial assistance, for counseling.... that way they can both help and determine the problems.
 
Some years back I was the Hon? treasurer for our Church. As such, I looked after the purse (not like Mr Iscariot:rolleyes:)
The minister was often approached by people looking for a hand out to buy food(sadly sometimes cigarettes or grog).
I printed out food vouchers with various amounts on them. We had an agreement with the local supermarket and they would honour the vouchers and just send me a monthly account. The danger was and always will be, that if someone asks for $20 and you give them $40, next time they will ask for $60. Those people in need never were interested in any of the outreach programs run by the Church....I think for some, they preferred to remain anonymous.
It is a sad mixture, pride and poverty.

I know. I don't relish the job of Shepherd of a flock. Extreme spiritual discernment + street smarts is required.

That's precisely why we as new and growing believers need to be fed the Word on a regular basis, and fed for the purpose of digestion; not just whet-the-appetite type feeding. Scripture interpreting scripture kind of teaching. That way we will be better equipped to rightly discern HOW God wants us to love His people: unconditionally. Sometimes with money, sometimes with compassion, sometimes with a smile and a firm handshake. Who knows but God what our innermost needs are?

HEREIN comes the rub: discernment. Which is given by the God through the Word and the Spirit.
 
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