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Hebrew 6:1-11

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by dario68w, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Hello everyone, and may God bless you, may Christ be with you all.

    I read these verses today, and the part about falling from Christ... I fell away from Christ for 6 years. Does that mean I wasn't a true Christian to begin with, does it mean that I had maturing to do or that God wanted me to experience many things so I can come back to him more grateful then ever to have his salvation...

    Does it mean I am just overall weak in my faith. I would like to hear your thoughts on this matter. Thank you, and as I said before, God bless.
     
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  3. :) As Major said this has been well discussed here. However, I certainly don't mind repeating myself as this is such an important subject to have peace on.

    After meditating on this for many years, my current understanding is as follows:

    Believing we can lose our salvation is supported by lots of scripture. Believing we cannot lose our salvation is supported by lots scripture. :) Good start hey.... (if you must know, Kevin is to blame for that opening).

    Now putting the two together with some common sense. It takes sinking to the depth of our hearts intent to properly make the decision to accept Jesus. We are saved when we are saved, not when we say the words, though saying the words 'I accept Jesus' show we are on the right track. Like Peter had a revelation that Jesus was the Son of God. An undeniable spiritual encounter took place, as Jesus said 'flesh and blood cannot reveal it to you but only my Father in heaven'. This depth of intent is not a depth that we can always sink to or live at. Example. When we got married we were completely in love and fully convinced of the decision. The honey-moon phase was awesome and just confirmed for us that our decision was correct. After the honeymoon it is possible that we could suddenly wonder why we married the person. We start ignoring them and doing our own thing in the marriage. Does this mean that we are not married or rather that we are being bad husbands? We are merely being bad husbands. Hence the once saved, always saved teaching is very strong.

    However my gut tells me that those believing once saved always saved believe it so firmly because they can't imagine a life without God as they are so close to God. It is hence a good sign for me to hear someone say they believe in once saved always saved. Kinda of like a married couple in love, cannot even hold the thought of adultery in their minds.

    Now the flip-side. In comparing our relationship with God to an earthly marriage we have to understand that God the Son is a perfect spouse. He will never leave nor forsake us. But we can leave and forsake Him. Is it easy to do this? Absolutely NOT. As I explained when we got saved it took tapping into a depth of inner desire to accept Jesus. It takes an equal depth of inner desire to rebel against Jesus to leave Him. Example: Jesus says that if our spouse cheats on us, we will be justified to get a divorce but we do better to forgive them and take them back (note that it is the extremer evil of adultery and not merely cursing, lying, stealing etc, though those may be indicators that adultery is en-route). So Jesus clearly desires to go the extra mile and then some for us. I see this as applying only if our spouse had a once-off or few falls into temptation. Not a long lasting affair. A long lasting affair would show a complete change of hearts desire for someone else. Would Jesus say to a spouse who was been cheated on for a solid year that they must forgive and take them back or rather that the cheating spouse has already left them? We know that scripture says that it is fine to get a divorce if the other party leaves us. So you see, to me the extremity of the inner rebellion becomes the issue. So as a final statement I say that if we continue in an extremity of evil we can walk away from (not lose) our salvation and must be nervous of an eternity away from God. Now what Paul is saying is that someone who is capable of that, what hope have they got of coming back? near zero. We cannot ever take it as completely zero as we know that all living still have hope to come to the Lord and if we sincerely repent He will forgive us 7x70 times a day. But would someone who has sunk to such a level of inner rebellion truly repent anytime soon? That is what I gather Paul is referring to.

    So regarding your predicament specifically, you would need to ask yourself, did you 6 years ago have an undeniable spiritual encounter with Jesus? If yes, judge the level of your inner rebellion. But whether it was extreme or not is actually now irrelevant as you are clearly back with your first love. God is smiling at you and has forgotten your past as far as the east is from the west!
     
    Major and calvin say Amen and like this.
  4. Hi guys, I'm relatively new to this forum. What does John 10:7-10 say to you:

    “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All whoever have come are thieves and robbers; but the sheep have not heard them. I am the door. If anyone enter by me he shall be safe, and shall go in and out, and shall find pastures. The thief comes only to steal, and slay, and destroy. I come that they may have life, and have it more abundantly.”
     
  5. I think after praying over it, I agree with you guys 100%, so thank you for your responses. I do at the same time believe that I never was too lost. I kept believing but became lukewarm water, slowly moving away and suddenly I had a wake up call. I think though I am shameful for many things and if I had a do over I wouldn't do them, I am that much more thankful for the Lord's grace, something I truely understand now compared to when I first accepted Christ.

    Thank you everyone!!! and God bless.
     
    KingJ and covered_by_grace say Amen and like this.
  6. Dario, I don't mean to bring confusion, but I have to add.

    There is a single question that is puzzling me and to which the answer bats strongly in favour of once saved always saved.

    Do you think that when we are reigning with Christ in heaven for eternity that there will some who rebel like the angels did and get sent to hell?

    The bible does not teach that to my knowledge and most believing you can lose your salvation wouldn't say so either. So therein lies a big dilemma. How is it that we can be eternally sanctified in heaven????? Either, 1) Our sins are forever covered by the blood of Jesus, or 2) we lose our free will and never have the ability to rebel like animals? Or 3) God can predict that no human making it to heaven will ever rebel? I can't think of any others??? The first makes the most sense and if that is the case then there is a very strong logical argument for once saved always saved. The emphasis being on if truly saved. The example moves from marriage to Jesus to son-ship (adoption as sons by God). Where we have good and naughty children, but all are children by the blood covenant with Jesus.

    The biggest opposition to this would be actual scripture saying that our names can be blotted out of the lambs book of life. But then there are Christians that see that as omitted and not deleted. A logical argument there is that there is no eraser for the blood, as our names are written with Jesus's blood in the lambs book of life. So, if you believe that your name can be blotted out of the lambs book of life and that you will still have free will when in heaven, you will believe that you can still one-day find your way to hell.

    I like what Paul says in Philippians 2:12. Even if we believe in once saved always saved, we must still be cautious, for we can always ''feel'' like we are saved, but may not necessarily be saved.
     
    dario68w likes this.
  7. Just a bit of a nit pick here. I was very much in tune till your last post kingj.

    You said "How is it that we can be eternally sanctified in heaven????? Either, 1) Our sins are forever covered by the blood of Jesus, or 2) we lose our free will and never have the ability to rebel like animals? Or 3) God can predict that no human making it to heaven will ever rebel? I can't think of any others???"
    Paul made the point in 1 Cor 15:52,53,54. Just a note, the Greek texts do not contain the word/s for 'body' so, the Kjv is a better read than the ESV. I believe that when we are raised to eternal life, we will be incorruptible........that is not vulnerable to sin.....and that is something truly to look forward to and give thanks to the Lord for.
    Now, if I am to be incorruptible, I will still have free will. I just wont use it to do evil.
     
    Abba's child, KingJ, Major and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  8. Calvin, would you say similar to Adam and Eve before they gave in and ate the fruit? A state where they did not know sin once so ever?

    And these are the 3 verses in KJV.

    1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (KJV)
    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
     
  9. Sorry Calvin, I am bad to bring confusion in my two posts.
    I just felt guilty last night as I felt I did not do 'once saved always saved' honest justice, especially when I have been puzzled in rationalising my question in post # 6 for a while now. Both sides have strong arguments.
     
  10. The Father's child hears His voice.

    The prodigal son, no matter how far he traveled from home, was welcomed HOME. He was surprised at his welcome and expected "just" treatment for his rebellion, but his father couldn't care less his about transgressions and instead threw a huge party in his honor!! Your Father has done the same for you. You weren't too far where His love could not beckon you home which means you were His son all along, just in rebellion against your Father.
     
    Abba's child, Major and dario68w says Amen and like this.
  11. Excellant my friend.

    The key is the word ONCE IMHO.
     
  12. G'day dario, I think the matter is proven by the fact.
    Adam & Eve started out not knowing sin, but they were corruptible.
    When the saints of God shed corruptibility and put on incorruptibility there will be no more death, and since death is the wages for sin, ( Rom 6:23. ) there must be no more sin
     
  13. KingJ..........excellant question my friend and the answer is YES.

    Rev. 20:7-9........
    "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

    How can that happen???? Many will argue this BUT obviousley there will be humans who come to Christ during the Tribulation. They will survive and go into the 1000 year rule of Christ, marraying and having children. It is those children who have never been temped by sin and when that happens, they do in fact rebel against God.

    The key here is that those children had NOT BEEN SAVED . Now when faced with temptation of sin, some make the wrong choice.
     

  14. Mr. D,

    What matter does it make why it happened? It happened, you learned from it, God's plan is working. For man to speculate if they are or aren't saved, and when it occurs and such is demonstration that man is thinking of self more than serving the LORD.

    Just an observation.

    Picture a man standing in a burning house screaming MY ROOM WILL NOT BURN!!!!! They can claim things all day long, but ultimately, only God knows.
     
  15. The incorrect view of this verse is that in verse 4-5, there is an obvious description of a Christian. Someone who knows God (and yes it does mean that). But then in verse 6, people think that the verse is saying if someone who is saved, falls away from God, they have lost their salvation and they are never able to repent again to get salvation back, because God has hardened their hearts forever.

    This view is entirely wrong, and once you understand the context of chapter 6, you will see why.

    Verse 1 says to “leave” the principles of the doctrine of Christ, and go unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith toward God.

    So right off the bat, Hebrews 6 is contextually talking about spiritual maturity. So what does that mean? Now look at verses 4-6.

    It says it is impossible for a Christian that has fallen away, to be renewed again (regeneration, and forgiveness of sins unto eternal life) BY repenting. This verse is showing that a Christian does not repent to have sins forgiven (unto eternal life). That was done once when you were regenerated and put your faith in Christ. We need to move on now, unto maturity. A Christian “can’t” repent to be saved twice. It’s impossible. You would be saying Jesus needs to die for all of your sins again, which doesn’t make any logical sense. After conversion, a Christian does not repent for the forgiveness of sins unto salvation, but the forgiveness of sins to come back into fellowship with God. God cares most about sanctification, to make you look more like Christ. Being in sin not only brings you out of fellowship with God, but also inhibits the process of sanctification. The less you are sanctified in this world, the less use you'll be on earth, and the less reward you’ll have in heaven. It is not saying you can lose your salvation.
     
  16. Aenon, who can tell if you were ever there, much less fallen away. Some people are convinced if they smoke a cigarette they have fallen away from God and must confess and take thirty lashes... It's not even a sin... People get so scared of judgement, that they focus on the sins. That's like driving and staring at the ditch. Eventually you end up there.
    But for those people, where they are most concerned, their sins, is a mistake, it's not the sins that matter, it's getting TO GOD that matters. Worrying if you are falling away or not, is not focused on getting to GOD, it's focused on how much you can get away with.
     
  17. I don't understand how this applies to what I said.

    Not according to 2 Cor 13:5
     
  18. It wasn't so much "to what you said". But to one of the common sentiments. I'm just saying, why do we fret topics that we can't judge decisively anyway.
    We don't know if we are saved or not. We can sit here pound our chests and hollar who is more right than the other all day long, and it doesn't matter, you are or you aren't, and the judge isn't here in this conversation directly.





    5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

    And the test......>>>1 JOhn 3:No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

    I do not pass this test. Do you?

    Your verse seems to be saying, in my view, examine yourself and know where you are. But 1 john 4:16 says If you are afraid of Judgement you don't have love right, and that means God isn't in you and you aren't in God.

    That tells me, the focus goes on the LOVE part, not the sin part. If you are afraid of judgement, you failed in the love part.

    However you read it, 4:16-18 is pretty blunt, Fear is a fear of punishment, if you fear punishment you aren't there yet. I think however you read them, your view on 2 cor 13 above, stands in opposition to the words in the johnian verses.

    maybe not, that's just how it looks from here.
     
  19. Aenon....
    1 john 1 would argue if you still sin, you haven't yet been in fellowship with God, in other words, you are atoned for, saved, but not quickened, matured, finished. Those John wrote to, were not in fellowship with God, and John was.

    To be in fellowship they must learn to walk in the light AS HE DOES (and he does not sin).

    And they wouldn't be in fellowship until they learned to love correctly, and the rest of the dark was washed away, 2:8.

    Hard teaching, but thankfully it's up to His seed in me, not me to get there, 1 john 3:9.
     
  20. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." -1 John 1:8
     

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