Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Brother_Mike_V, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. I am not disagreeing with you; what I am asking for is clarification on your perspective from scripture. This is an open forum after all! :)
  2. If the Bible is truth, and is no lie, why do we not simply believe what scripture tells us? What would happen if we did?

    Eph 2:5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
    Eph 2:6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Col 1:21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Php 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

    Heb 12:22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to
  3. I am sorry if you read tone into that. I did nothing more than explain my statement. I called you brother as Christians we are ... brothers from a different mother.

  4. I am not sure where you are going with this? Is there someone in contention with you; someone showing clear disbelief in what the Bible says?

    I think the issue at hand with your perspective-which I disagree with; if that is your grievance- if I gather what you are saying is correct: 'we are in heaven now'. I would contend that our state of living in heaven with Christ-in the flesh- and in the presence of God is eternally in the future.

    Now I would concede that; yes God owns everything and yes this time we are in now is God's time and yes we have the presence of the Holy Ghost on this earth at present; but we are not on the remade earth yet to come. Yes God's time is eternal but the future prophecy of His Word is not yet fulfilled; else we would be sipping tea outside the gates of the 1400 mile long wall New Jerusalem in our remade sinless bodies.

    Right 'now'; we are still in the curse filled world until Christ in the flesh physically returns in His perfect timing to not only redeem us physically-but all of the creation which is under the curse.

    I think you are trying to eliminate or circumnavigate the physical aspect of the resurrection which has obviously not happened as we still have war, disease, etc... Maybe the term 'over-spiritualize' would apply? I have no disagreement with the Bible in the scripture you posted; I just believe that our 'reward' is yet to come....

    Are we 'citizens' of heaven now? Yes, but we are still strangers in a strange land ruled by the prince of the power of the air; Christ is not 'here' in person as King over this Earth-He can't be; He must be separated from sin; which is why it all has to be remade for His Glory to abound. God always fashions the sinless to inhabit when communing with man: The Garden of Eden, The Burning Bush, Mt Sinai, The Tabernacle, The Temple, Jesus Christ, and soon the Universe....or at least the part that mankind caused to be set under the curse.

    My guess is you are on a post-millennial bent?
  5. No problems here; would you mind sharing scripture with your line of thought?
  6. Mike, where was God the Father when Jesus was here on there earth while doing the will of his Father. Where was Jesus also while he was here on this earth. How about the Holy Spirit where was he while Jesus ministered here on earth. Did both the Father and the Holy Spirit sit on the side lines watching Jesus do his thing? Was there ever a time when the God left his throne in Heaven above and come down to earth and leave his throne empty? Not a chance ever. God the Father was inside Jesus reconciling the world unto himself while at the same time sitting on his throne in Heaven. The same with Jesus, he has always been with the Father, even when he was here on earth. Jesus said this about himself in this scripture.....

    Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    The Christian lives in two different worlds at the same time, the physical and the spiritual. Not only are we here on this physical earth doing the will our Father we are also sitting on the right hand of God in Christ in the Heavenlies. This is not some future event as it happened the moment one believes in Jesus and is "translated" into the Kingdom of God. The problem is finding someone to actually believe what the scriptures say.
    What the Church is doing right now is waiting to see this event happen and then believe it. This is how the world believes and thinks. We will not believe it until we first see it. This is not Christianity, as faith alway believes first, and then sees and experiences the Kingdom of God in which they are now sitting.

    Like I said, why don't we take God at his Word and simply believe what it says?

  7. 2 Corinthians 12:2 (NASB)

    2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

    The scripture is what I am referencing. I do not know of any scriptures that refer to the other two or any others. There is Daniel 10:11 that makes you think.

    Daniel 10:11-13 (NASB)

    11 He said to me, “O Daniel, man of high esteem, understand the words that I am about to tell you
    and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.”
    And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. 12 Then he said to me, “Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart on understanding this and on humbling yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

    This angel got caught up in battle while bringing the answer to the prayers Daniel had prayed for 21 days before. The battle was so intense he not only called a archangel but the archangel Michael. This is pretty heavy duty! Now we are left with somewhere in between here and heaven there is a satanic realm or is it earth itself? Satan is the prince of this world; as I say this please understand that it is just thought. I cannot prove what I just said. It is just one of the mysteries of scripture that stimulated my imagination while try to understand how it could be.

    Sorry about the rabbit trail I just took you down.

    Brother_Mike_V likes this.
  8. Would you mind answering a couple of direct yes or no questions for me?

    1: Is this earth you and I are on right now in the same condition it will be in for eternity? Y/N

    2: Will Christ be returning to this earth we are on right now physically to remake it? Y/N

    3: Do you believe that all humans will stand before the judgement seat and be separated into eternal Heaven and Hell? Y/N

    4: Do you believe you will suffer the 'first death' and stand before the LORD at the judgement seat? Y/N
  9. No problem; that's what the thread is here for. Now as for the "third heaven"; it is my ****opinion**** Paul understood that there are three states to what we perceive as "Heaven": the "present Heaven" which surrounds us right now; the "Intermediate Heaven" where the (human*) dead in Christ are awaiting the remade heavens and earth, and the "Eternal Heaven" which is and was and is to come- the abode of God the Father.

    It is my belief that the present and intermediate states of Heaven that we are experiencing now will no longer be necessary at the resurrection of all things; they will be 'remade' sinless and incorporated into the eternal heaven once the curse and sin has been lifted-eliminated from our present state of being. At present; the dead Saints are awaiting their physical resurrection and new homes on the new earth waiting under the throne of Christ asking 'how long'; being comforted in their 'rest'. At present; we on this earth who are saved and 'translated' into heaven as citizens are awaiting the first death and judgement. Should the LORD tarry, we would would join those in the 'intermediate' heaven until the resurrection of ALL things. Again-once the curse is removed and sin is abolished in the cleansed remade heavens and earth, Christ's kingdom will be established and incorporated into the Eternal Heaven and everlasting life of our Heavenly Father God.

    Until we are cleansed-God is separated from us because of His holiness; thankfully he paved the Way through Jesus Christ and did not abandon us completely by sending the Holy Spirit into this world.
  10. Brother as you asked from me........ Will you give me supporting scripture for your view.


  11. Certainly: I started pulling out scripture about heaven and figured that I would start with what Jesus said about heaven and came to realize that the Book of Matthew is full of references Jesus made about heaven. In Matthew alone "Heaven(ly)" is used 75 times in the English KJV. 70 of those references are by Jesus himself; beginning with:


    Matthew 4:17
    "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    Throughout the entire Gospel of Matthew Jesus makes mention of 'heaven'; now if Christ made "heaven" a priority in His earthly ministry, maybe we should also consider the subject of great importance?

    'Heaven(*)' in the Gospels 143 times: http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=heaven&ver=kjv&rpp=100&as_match=1&as_within=40-43

    'Heaven(*)' in the Bible 691 times: http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?search=heaven&p=1&q=heaven&ver=kjv

    Looking through the scriptures associated with heaven; we find all the major doctrines tied to it: salvation, eternal life, hell, the 'saints', end times, judgement, etc...

    What I find most interesting is this: Jesus said first: "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    In this is the Gospel: Repent-turn away from your wicked ways to God. Why? because your eternal destiny in HEAVEN is at stake. The 'kingdom' is God's. The time is:NOW! (at hand). What else needs to be taught? All other doctrine is tied to this.

    To be continued...(Dinner Time!)....
  12. This earth will be destroyed by fire and remade new in the future.
    Mike, where are all those who have died in Christ today? Are they not in Heaven right now? Is not God going to create a "New Heaven and Earth", but there is a Heaven right now where all the saints dwell.

    Already answered this.

    What judgement are you talking about? The judgement seat of Christ, or the great white throne judgement?
    The judgement seat of Christ has nothing to do with salvation, and it has everything to do with rewards. These rewards are given as "crowns" not weather or not one is able to live in God's Kingdom, as we are already sitting in Heavenly places in Christ.

    We have already been given eternal life as we have already died with Christ on the cross. We are already citizens of the Heavenly City Zion. The only thing we are to get in the future is a new supernatural body, and rewards according to what we have done in the body.
  13. Forgive me for not being able to follow your thoughts; I think it may be a failure on my part. I really don't think we are going to gain any ground on either one of our perspectives like this.
  14. Part 2:

    Well I deleted my scripture references thatI was compiling-but no worries my Bible (and the internet) are still intact at the moment!

    I believe if you read Revelation 6,7, 21 & 22; these are the most revealing scriptures for the transitional state of mankind. These chapters also give us a very small sneak preview into the eternal heaven when we will see and walk with Jesus Christ-physically and spiritually.

    Revelation 6:

    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Revelation 7:

    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    I think it would be prudent to also read Revelation 21 & 22 in their entirety. I would post them but I am guessing you have a Bible you can open....

    There are many more scriptures when it comes to renewing/ regeneration/ resurrection of the Earth-many of which were already posted in previous posts.

    As for 2 Corinthians 12:2

    1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmitie

    My guess is Paul is speaking if the eternal Heaven where God sits on His throne referring it to the 'third heaven'. If I recall correctly, this is the only time this expression is used in the modern Bible. I would also hazard a guess that Paul saw said 'third heaven' and was commanded not to speak of it....
  15. No tears! We'll spend over 999,999,999,999,999,999 millenniums with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc. while Satan gets a taste of his own medicine!
  16. I skimmed through a few commentaries and the consensus I found was this: the "third heaven" was apparently a common phrase used in Jewish writing to describe "God's abode" or what I was referring to a the "Eternal Heaven"; same concept.

    As for the "First Heaven": this was considered to be the air above us; our physical atmosphere ('where the birds fly'). The "Second Heaven": was considered to be 'space' or the cosmos; IE: planets stars etc...the physical 'heaven' beyond earth's atmosphere.

    So I would have to say that I am pleased that this truth of 'God's abode' (Eternal Heaven)was established as being a separate heaven even before Christ came.

    That leaves us with the 'First and Second Heaven' which I would categorize as our "Present Heaven": it is what we live in and know physically at present.

    The "Intermediate Heaven" is the place where the Saints are in waiting for the full resurrection of the heavens and earth- when this "Present Heaven" will be remade Holy and acceptable and be incorporated into the "Eternal Heaven" as Christ's Kingdom where He reigns and lives with mankind. The fallen Saints are in their 'rest'/ 'sleep' waiting the day of Christ's return to this Earth to inhabit their permanent abode on the New Earth WITH Christ.

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