Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Brother_Mike_V, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. What the scriptures say, and we experience in our walk.
  2. Hi BMV, thanks for your invite, and hello to my friend Major. Heaven is always a good topic to discuss, as it helps us to "seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God," for we "are risen with Christ" (Col 3:1).

    Scripture confirms that it once did not exist, as it is one of three ("the heavens"--) which were created ("third heaven"--2Co 12:2; "the heaven of heavens"--Deu 10:14, et al). The three heavens are: our atmosphere; space; presently God's dwelling place.

    Scripture also confirms the destruction of "the heaven of heavens" and a new one created (Rev 21:1).

    Those who believed in God in the prior dispensation before Christs' ascension went there at the point of death (Luk 23:43; Luke 16:19). Concerning the Lord's story about "the rich man" and "Lazarus," there is debate as to whether or not it is a parable or was an actual occurrence, but to me it does not matter because though parables are not actual occurrences, they nonetheless are true-to-life analogies, e.g. even if the story did not actually occur, what it allagorizes is true, otherwise where would there be any meaning.

    One of the most moving truths concerning "the new heaven" is that Christ (as is He is now in the present heaven) is and will be in the physical body in which He ascended, same as we shall be! The "natural" body is physical but is sown in corruption" but "it is raised in incorruption" (1Cor 15:42). The similarity between the "natural body" and the "spiritual body" (1Cor 15:44) is that they are both physical, but the vast difference between them is the incorruptibility of the former.

  3. So, the question should be, the body without the spirit is dead, if the spirit is not in the body, which makes the body dead, is our body dead right now?

    Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Which means we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

  4. You are confusing the spiritual with the physical and symbol with the literal.
    Your body is very much alive. That is to say the it is a functional organism, as opposed to an organism which is damaged and has ceased to function, i.e. dead.
  5. So, which body is dead? The physical, or the spiritual? Does not the "flesh" mean physical body?

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    If you are not in the flesh, then you are not in your body, but in the Spirit.
  6. In this case, to be "in the flesh" means that you are concerned with worldly things, things "of the flesh" as opposed to "of the spirit".
    It has nothing whatsoever to do with your physical body.
  7. Hi CCW - You've got an interesting reply. My understanding concerning the phrase "the body is dead because of sin" is that it references what God told Adam, "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," because of the
    sin. You shall start dying, in the physical body, which type of death in this life the spirit does not encounter, but continues on--on to the second or eternal death for the unbeliever.

    The word "flesh" in 8:9 references the sinful nature, not the physical body. Nearly all the NT usages of the word flesh references the sinful nature. Strong's Greek: IV. The flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

    A good example is, "The sinful nature strongly desires (lusts) against the Spirit of God." This also explains the good example you presented: "You are not in the sinful nature (flesh), but in the Spirit of God." This obviously cannot refer to the physical body because we are in it.

    Good input CCW!
  8. #28 CCW95A, Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
    Brother Chaplain, if man is spirit, soul, and body, where does his human nature dwell? It can not be in his spirit, because that is where Christ dwells. It can not be in his soul, as that is where mans will, personality and emotions dwell. We do not put to death our soul. It has to be in man physical body or flesh. The word "flesh" in Romans 8:9 means....

    flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external,

    Man's human fleshly nature is connected to all of mans five physical senses that go back to man's physical brain which makes up his human nature.. Also known as the "natural man" who can not receive the things of God, because God is a Spirit and the natural man is physical. Sin itself dwells in man's mortal body which is subject to death.

    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    Mortal referring to "subject to death"

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
  9. Well CCW; just when I think I am following your thought pattern...I am off again...

    We are physical AND spiritual-but the third part of us which is the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us upon acceptance of Christ as our LORD and Savior. Without that third part-we are as other men. Because our salvation is about Christ-not us. We live on the promise that we will be remade, cleansed, 'resurrected' from this world of death into the new Earth and eternal Holy life in God's presence (physically & spiritually) to His Glory.

    Without that 'third part'; mankind-on this earth- are 'condemned already' to eternal separation from God. They are the 'walking dead' both physically and spiritually. And so would we without the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. We will still perish in the 'first death'; but we will not suffer the 'second death' because our Redeemer Jesus Christ will be the one that settles our account before the Father in 'that day' of judgement. Glory to God!

    After this; when the 'goats and lambs' have been separated; and we have been cleansed by the Holy fire: we will enter into the permanent Kingdom. Then we will have renewed bodies AND spirits living with Jesus AND Spirit. We will still be 'ourselves' with our own conscience, but we will be surrounded physically and spiritually by God.

    Right now we are still in the 'temporary'; the only thing permanent in us now is the Holy Spirit. Both our bodies and 'selfs' will be remade. Right now we are unacceptable to be in 'Heaven' until we are cleansed physically and spiritually. Wonder of wonders, joy of joys!
  10. Brother Mike, As the scripture tells.....

    2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Jesus Christ became our new life when we became born again by the Word of God. Along with Christ came the Holy Spirit since we are his temple. Man is spirit, soul, and body. As a Christian we live in two different worlds all at the same time. We live in a physical world, and a spiritual world. With our body, with its own nature contacts the physical world using its five physical senses that is all connected to our physical mind as it central point of logically understanding its environment. With our spirit we come in contact with the spiritual world. The spirit man also has five spiritual senses that contact the spiritual world. There is no other way to lay hold upon eternal life, or taste and see that the Lord id Good. It is with with our spiritual eyes we see God's Kingdom, and see Jesus crowned Glory and honor. The Apostle Paul tells us that "strong meat" of God's word is only given to those who "exercise" their spiritual senses. (Heb 5:14) The soul of man is where he becomes conscience of both worlds and where he makes his choice to either follow his physical senses or spiritual senses. Our will and emotions, and personality dwells in our soul. The soul receives information from both spiritual and physical worlds, we can either walk in the flesh or Spirit based on our own decisions we make. The mind of Christ does not dwell within man physical mind or brain, it dwells within our spirit where Christ is. This is were we understand scriptures. The mind of man was never designed by God to discover spiritual truth. It is only a tool for man so he can operated in this world. The mind only believes what you tell it to believe. We can believe a lie if we want to, all you have to do is tell it to. But the heart of man knows the truth and will never believe a lie because that is the mind of Christ.
    The only thing we are waiting for as a Christian it to know our new bodies which we will not get until Jesus returns. Everything else God has already given to us. According as his divine has already given to us all things that pertain to life and Godliness through the knowledge of him. Without knowing what we already have and the believing it we will not experience them in this life. When we became God's child a "circumcision" took place that separated our flesh, from our spirit and soul which is why we are able to live in Christ in Heavenly places while still being here on this earth. Christ is in us and we are in Christ!!!

    Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
  11. I believe the soul of an individual is the part that distinguishes us the most from all other living things, in that it is the part that enables autonomy, i.e. thinking, decisiveness, etc., and that it is within the soul where the nature dwells and determines the autonomy.

    Therefore, the nature is the part of man to be changed to alter his overall being. Hence the new nature ("new man"), which does not displace the "old man," but is used of the Spirit in the life of Christ to be the dominating element which determines the life of the believer.

    This is not to say that since the believer is not "ruled" or dominated" (Rom 6:12, 14) by the old man that the believer no longer sins, but rather that the old man can no longer cause the believer to desire against God's "pleasure."
  12. @CCW95A

    I would agree that we are 'multidimensional' beings; but we are not 'living in Heaven' as it will be when things are remade. The "remade" part hasn't happened yet; nor have I died physically...or have I ...Eeeeek!

    But seriously; I think I see what your saying: parts I agree with parts I don't.

    I would also agree that we can 'see' a foretaste of Heaven on this Earth when we are "walking in the Spirit"; but it is not the eternal Heaven/ Kingdom/ Earth to come.

    Anyway; that was not the intent of this thread: although we can make the case that on this temporary Earth, any GOOD we see can be attributed to God's Character and our future permanent home. (If our eyes are fixed on-and able to see- the things of God)

    Am I getting warming?
  13. Mike, where do all Christian people go when they physically die?
  14. Well; as far as I can tell from witnessing death on this Earth; the physical body returns to the earth (dust/ clay/ ashes/ etc..)

    As far as the spirit (saved or not) on the other hand; that is in God's control until the judgement. In my ***** opinion***** from what I have gleaned from scripture; there seems to be an 'intermediate state' or transitional state between this life and the next when the spirit will be cleansed and the body remade for occupation in the new (future-at least in our understanding) Kingdom which we will "live" resurrected with God for eternity physically and spiritually.

    In my *****opinion*****, as God and His work are limited only to His will and power; the children who die in this age will 'rest' only for what would seem to be a short period of time in this transitional state. It may seem instantaneous to us that we 'die' physically here, our spirits are then before the throne judgement where the 'wheat and chaff' will be divided. OR; it is possible that the (physically) dead Saints are watching in the same time step as we are and are asking the LORD how much longer until all the Saints are justified.

    So CCW95A; my question to you is this; because I think I may have fished where you are coming from: are you a 'pre', 'post' or 'current' millennium guy? Do you believe we will suffer the 'first death' physically? Or are you saying that if we are 'truly saved' we will not suffer a physical death on this Earth?
  15. Brother Mike, I am just a guy who reads the scriptures and simply believes what they say. I do not try and logically figure them out in my mind. When I read scriptures that say this, I believe them without questioning them.

    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

    Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

    I do not doubt any of this things that the Bible says where I am. I know it does not make any sense to my physical mind, but it makes perfect sense in my heart. When a person becomes a child of God, the Lord transfers them from the Kingdom of darkness and and places them into the Kingdom of light, were all God's saints are. We usually do not understand this because it takes finding these things out in the Word of God and then believe them before anyone can experience them in their life.
    The Lord gave me vision many years ago, and showed me what would be my calling in this life. It has to do with becoming aware of where we are in his Kingdom. I never wanted this task, and did not ask for it. But, I do it out of obedience to the Lord. It has been very difficult to do, but it brings me great joy, because I know there those who receive it. If just one person benefits from it I am satisfied.
  16. I make no boast in understanding what it all means . But would suggest that a mansion is more than a room.
    I would further suggest that if that was all we needed to know .Why does God speak more about it?
    I do not say you are wrong .I am simply saying you but robbing yourself if you don't go a little further .

    in Christ
  17. My brother, I am reminded of this quote from H. Jackson Brown............
    "People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they’re not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost."
  18. I know there are atleast 3
  19. Present...intermediate....& eternal?

  20. Brother,
    If Paul knew a man who went to the third heaven one would have to conclude there are atleast two more.


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