He...double hockey sticks

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by azheis, Jul 17, 2007.

  1. He...double hockey sticks

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news but were all going to hell ………………..
    Believer, unbeliever, it makes no difference …..if we die before Christ returns, we go to hell.
    Now for the good news ……...actually it just occurred to me, that anything I say would be better news than having to endure what Christendom references as the torment of hell.
    If I were to tell you (assuming you believed me) that in order to avoid going to hell you had to hit yourself in the head with a Vaughn framing hammer you would be running to the hardware store; but that is not the case or the good news.
    The intro statement is absolutely true, but the good news is that …………..it’s not what you think …………….of coarse about this time some of you are thinking ..great! this newbe thinks he has got some prophetic revelation that none of us are privy to ….not true! ….well all except the newbe part. The prophetic revelation is something we are all privy to in fact for generations this revelation has been available, but for generations we have sanctioned our beliefs with tradition rather than truth; so put away the hammers, here is the truth.

    He - double hockey sticks

    First I do not subscribe to the common belief that when one dies they go directly to heaven or what is commonly referred to as hell, or to Abraham’s bosom, purgatory, or the waiting room. The Bible teaches that when one dies they are dead….asleep, until the return of Christ. Their spirit returns to God, the soul, which is breath life ceases, and the body goes into a state of decay …. back to dust. “
    As long as I am defining hell let me first begin by giving definition to the above places that are commonly referenced in Christendom, as they do play a part in this.
    The first is Purgatory, although this is almost exclusively dealt with in Catholicism. The teachings of Purgatory all stem from the Catholic Church's belief in a “works salvation.†Basically Purgatory teaches that you must pay for your own sins, ………….well not all of them,…….. only those which Christ failed to pay for……….. Actually I am not going to waste much time on this if you want more information google the word, and I am sure you will be satisfied that this is a unscriptural, unbiblical, and at one point, through indulgences; a money making deceptive lie perpetrated by the catholic hierarchy against the innocence of their own, uninformed, well intentioned followers.
    The waiting room …I don’t know who came up with this, but I have heard this one tossed around a few times and my best guess is that it’s the Protestant form of purgatory minus the indulgences
    Abrahams bosom Luke 16:19-31

    I have heard this referred to a couple of different ways, and honestly I don’t know what the common belief is, it seems to change with the subscriber, but for understanding purposes let me clarify what this passage is referring to.
    The first thing that should grab our attention is the way verse 19 starts out “There was a certain rich man†Now take a look at verse 1 of chapter 16. “There was a certain rich manâ€â€¦. Starting midway through chapter 14 and ending in chapter 16 verse 31 Jesus is teaching by way of parables. A parable is a comparison by sustained resemblance; it is an extended simile. The likeness or resemblance must be sought from the entire context.
    As an aside- Two ancient Greek manuscripts The Bezae Caulabrigiensis, and the Koridethian-Caesarean text include the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen at the beginning of verse 19, which translate as “And He said also another parableâ€

    This parable is addressed to the Pharisees {verse 14} The Pharisees, who believed in rewards and punishment immediately after death. Jesus told this parable to the Pharisees in light of their Talmudic traditions and beliefs. It was they, not Jesus, who coined the phrase “Abraham’s Bosom†as one of several afterlife locations. Jesus uses the parable to condemn the Pharisees and catch them in their own erroneous belief.
    His intention was not to contradict the entire Old Testament by teaching survival after death. His primary intention was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they still wouldn’t listen to him….. Just the opposite appears in Jesus teachings when we look at verses like in John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead .and Luke 14:14. And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
    And Jesus could not have denied the abundance of scripture from the Old Testament like that of Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, &10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goestHow prophetic it was, as evidenced by his own resurrection from the dead, many of them did not believe
    What about hell . …………Somehow we have adapted the meaning, which the Greeks have put upon this word, and we have been synonymous in our definition with sheol, hades, gehenna, katakaio, and tartaros as that of eternal torment. They are not the same, the word sheol/hades is more accurately defined as a state rather then a place. Gravedom is a word coined I believe by E W Bullinger, and is a great word for hell; it is the state or the reign of being in the grave; I am not talking about the grave itself which employs the Greek word (qeber). I am speaking of the time when one takes his last breath, until the return of our savior Jesus Christ.
    Although I have had several invitations {by not so loving people} to go to this place, we must disregard the meaning that is placed on the word hell today. The Bibles’ definition is; “the state of being when one dies,†it’s a continuing state until the resurrection.†That’s it ….it is that simple, and that defined in the Bible.
    Sheol {Hebrew} and Hades {Greek} are basically the two words we will be looking at, both meaning grave or gravedom.
    Sheol is translated grave 31 times, hell 31 times, and pit 3 times.
    Hades is translated hell 10, times and grave 1 time.
    The standard for truth in defining words has got to come from the Word itself, not from the meaning (s) attached to it, which is where the confusion comes in.
    In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld and his name came to represent this fictitious place that we understand as Hell. The Septuagint was a second century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament, and in it the word Hades was chosen as the counterpart to the Hebrew Sheol.
  2. As is done with Sheol, many English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word Hades as hell rather than grave. As E. W. Bullinger states “The Old Testament is the fountain-head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language The Hebrew word Sheol is divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its nature and come down laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meaning and usages.â€
    The English word hell has taken on the mythological Greek meaning associated with the pagan idea of an underworld where the dead continue to live on in torment. The Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible {1962 vol. 1 p788} states “Nowhere in the Old Testament is the abode of the dead regarded as a place of punishment or torment. The concept of an infernal “hell†developed in Israel only during the Hellenistic period.
    In following up with Bullinger’s statement lets look at the scriptures that prove his point.

    Acts 2:27-31

    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of thepatriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    As biblical students we must use the Words interpretation of itself to define words within the Word. Clearly there is no justification to the eternal torment, which has been propounded throughout Christendom today. Whether we translate it or transliterate it, we have to give it the meaning that God purposed; everything else outside the Word of God must be discarded. God has chosen to use words in the Word to communicate to us, it is not up to us, or literature to define those words, the only meaning we should attach to words {in the written word of God} is that which God allows; that in part is what II Timothy 2:15 speaks of.
    Sheol exists only as a concept, it is a figurative, not an actual place. Bodies buried in a quber (a literal grave) will decay and eventually disappear. The dead exist only in the mind of God who remembers every person who has died. He will send His Son the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5) to raise the rest of the dead from this “place†(John 5:28 &29)
    So going back to my statement Bibles definition of sheol/hades is; “the state of being when one dies,†it’s a continuing state until the resurrection,†not eternal torment for the sinner.

    This leaves us with the other words gehenna, katakaio, and tartaros translated hell, or as hell, along with other questions like: what happens to the soul, what is the soul, where does the spirit go, and do people go to heaven directly after death which ties directly in with this. But it may be best if I pull another thread on soul, so as to keep this one at a readable length.
    Gehenna – A Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom†which was a city dump outside of Jerusalem. This was a place that was common knowledge to the people.
    When Christ would address this He was illustrating that garbage thrown into the gehenna would be burned up. No one listening to Jesus would believe that that the garbage would continue to exist in the fire without being consumed.
    This is the place of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord spoken of in II Thes 1:9 It refers to the fire of judgment in which the wicked will one day be consumed. It is called “the lake of fire†in the book of Revelation where fire will bring the ultimate annihilation of the devil and his hosts.

    Katakaio is used in Hebrews 13:11 regarding the sacrificial beasts that were burned outside the camp.
    For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
    This same word is used in Matthew 3:12
    Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    Neither Chaff nor beasts burn forever, they burn up and are gone …many verses make this clear. Nowhere in the Word of God dose it say that God will torment forever those who have refused to believe Him.

    Tartarous is used once and translated hell in II Peter 2:4 it refers to the place of imprisoned evil sprits ……not a place of torment for sinners.
    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    I am aware that this may go against what you have been taught, and what you believe. I am not here to change anyone’s mind, just to hold forth the Word. What you do with the information is between you and God. If it makes you feel better that there is an eternal torment …….even though He God, so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. …..
    your free to do so.
    But just for a moment think …..God who so loved the world (not the trees and flowers but people) that He would burn people in the eternal hell fire forever because they didn’t believe?…… boy that will teach them!!
    Aside from that being totally absurd, that verse doesn’t say anything about burning in hell for eternity, it says, “should not perish†{apollumi} gone, destroy ……that is exactly what will happen to those who have refused to believe ..not burn forever……just perish.
    Proverbs 24

    19: Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked;
    20: For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
  3. If hell is a 'state' then what is the place where sinners will be tormented for eternity?
  4. I must admit, I've heard very compelling arguments for both sides of this issue, and simply find myself very ill-equipped to make a logical or spiritual decision based on either side. Catholics believe in Purgatory, JW believe we live in hell now (or something akin to it), others believe that hell is a state of mind, or separation from God, or whatever. I've even heard that some of the original Apostles preached about Hell as being temporary. Now since I don't have any major degrees, visions, or prophetic gifts, I don't have any way to really verify this to my own satisfaction one way or another.

    For instance, let's say that Timothy really DID say that Hell was only temporary. Let's even say that with my limited knowledge, someone was able to show me absolute, irrefutable proof that Timothy did. What skill do I posses that lets me know that it's the SAME Timothy? More importantly, how do I know that HIS vision of Hell was true and real any more than others? It's basically a debate that will never be settled, because very smart people, who know much more about these things than I, come up with very convincing arguments for opposite versions.

    For my own conscience, I look at Hell as a place of separation from God. Which is only important because of my motives for serving Him. I'm not a Christian because I want to enter heaven, or avoid hell, or commune with friends in church. I'm a Christian because I seek that relationship with my creator. It's the relationship that is important, so ANY place that separates me from God would by definition be Hell to me.

    Little 'details' like where Hell is, or how long you are there, or whatever, just don't bare a lot of weight with me because they just aren't important. If your head is in the guillatine, you aren't concerned about a needle prick in your arm. If your granny gives you a million dollars for your birthday, you really don't care about the $5 that your brother owes you...at least, you shouldn't.
  5. Jesus spoke of Hell as a very real place. Thankfully, Jesus wanted us to all be saved and not one of us to fall into Hell, so He went to the cross and died for us and conquered the grave. When Jesus said "it is finished", sin was made an end of. I'm a firm believer that whoever calls upon the name of Jesus and asks to be saved and accepts God's eternal gift (and that's what it is, it's a gift for us) that they will never see Hell. They are reborn into the family of God and are saved from that day forward. God doesn't go back on His promise, and He promised His children forever.
  6. There is none Violet

    The things we were taught all come from tradition, which were adopted from the mythological world …………. not from the truth of the Word.
    The truth is, there is no burning for eternity for the sinner …there is a consuming fire for those who have done evil, to which the end result is …non existence.
  7. azheis, I can't believe that.

    Jesus himself spoke these words,

    "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
  8. Revelation 19:20

    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:10

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  9. Violet
    Like I stated in my post, what you believe is up to you, I am just showing you what is in the Word.
    I would never be so presumptuous as to expect people to take my word on anything, and I always strongly encourage everyone to verify what I write {with an open mind} against the Word of God …not against traditional beliefs.
    Because the Word of God interprets itself, the majority of what I ink can be validated or disproved by using a simple concordance; because the Word of God gives definition to its own words.
    Of coarse by isolating scripture anyone can prove what they want to believe or what they already believe from the Bible. But by looking at the scope and allowing the scripture to interpret itself, we will then prove what God wants, or is saying.
    If what the Word is saying does not agree with what we believe it is then up to us to either hold onto our traditional beliefs ………….. or to renew our minds accordingly.
    For some reason …..
    I am not sure why, but rethinking the concept of hell has proved to be a huge obstacle for many, myself included. Having been raised for 16 years in Catholicism, this mythological concept of hell was not only ingrained into me, but I was told more times than I can count that I was bound for that place. {I guess I was a naughty boy} The whole pit of hell, burning forever, gnashing of teeth, all provide vivid mind pictures, certainly a much more vivid picture than the state of being in the grave. Plus the fear motivating factor behind, “believe or your going to hell†is always a best seller for many preachers.
    Of coarse in the scheme of things, this really has no bearing on us who are born again, for we have already been judged righteous by God, through the accomplishments of His son Jesus Christ……………

    Matthew 13

    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    This picture is eschatological. Not only does Jesus specifically apply this parable to the end of the age, His language has the background of the OT {Zephaniah 1:3}

    Revelation 19:20
    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:10
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    In these scriptures no human beings are involved in the lake of fire nor does any passage say anything about Adams race being tormented for ever and ever which is better translated “unto the ages of the agesâ€

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Here is the first mentions of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, in Rev. John identifies this as the second death …total consumption, not eternal torment
  10. It would be the 2nd if you look at what I highlighted in Matthew, above.

    Explain about total consumption......
    Thank you
  11. This is the only heaven unbelievers will ever know, and the only hell believers will ever know. There is no waiting room, purgatory, sleeping in the grave until the resurrection, and we go directly to heaven or hell upon our death. As Paul said, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Once I am absent from my body (which I will be upon death--unless I'm Raptured first), I WILL be present with the Lord.
  12. Violet

    Explain about total consumption......

    Total consumption or total annihilation ….These scriptures are dealing with the final judgment in which the fire will consume those and those who have rejected God and done evil………….
    It would be irresponsible With Rev. 21:4 to have people tormented forever
    And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Matthew 13

    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

    I should have spelled it out instead of abbreviating it …….

    “Here is the first mentions of sinners being cast into the lake of fire, in Rev. John identifies this as the second death …total consumption, not eternal tormentâ€
  13. are we not in the waiting room?up for good down for bad .we in middle seeing where we go?:jesus-sign:
  14. I can better explain my reason or position on “why we don’t go directly to heaven or hell after death†when I post on the soul, which I will do possibly on Monday
  15. Tottally unbiblical

    A right down lie and ridiculous...
  16. Come-on JesusReignsForever quit beating around the bush………tell me how you really feel
  17. In Luke 16, Jesus Christ gives a frightening picture of hell:

    22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
    28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into thisplace of torment.
    (Luke 16:22-28)
  18. I like what SC had to say~
  19. For anyone to be so righteous as to be sure of their everlasting heavenly reward before their judgement is a fool in my opinion. We are all sinners. To think for a moment that you DESERVE eternity in heaven is prideful. Instead, I live with the faith that God will do with me what he will. That is the only certainty I allow myself.

  20. Waslost,
    actually, when we were talking about Once saved always saved on here, I felt like that is being self righteous.

    I am not judging anyone but this is what I feel about it.
    All I can do is live my life serving God, pray and hope I am saved.
    To be so sure of salvation on my part does make me feel self righteous.

    I pray God finds favor in me as his servant!
    I will never feel worthy of his unconditional love.

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