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God To The Hebrew : Eat The Clean And Unclean Animal As Your Soul Lusts...

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by RosaVera, Dec 10, 2013.

  1. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0512.htm

    Deutoronomy 12:
    15 Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh within all thy gates, after all the desire of thy soul, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which He hath given thee; the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the gazelle, and as of the hart.
    22 Howbeit as the gazelle and as the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat thereof; the unclean and the clean may eat thereof alike.
    32 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    In Genesis we see that God gave man and woman all plants and fruits to eat, not animals :
    Genesis 1:
    28 God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 God said, “See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    Our Lord Jesus told us that it is not what goes into a man that is a sin but what comes out of his mouth for what comes out of man's mouth is from the heart... Peter was given a vision by Christ as we see in Acts :

    Acts 10:9-16, in which a huge sheet full of unclean animals is lowered from heaven, and a voice says, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." However, without hesitation Peter replies, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean" (verse 14). The Voice then responds, "What God has cleansed you must not call common" (verse 15).

    Though this was meant to be that Peter should not distinguish between Jew and Gentile yet it still refers to the eating of animals, for Christ did not condemn Gentiles for eating all animals nor did He restrict them to the Jewish laws . The only restriction is that if we know that the meat we eat has been dedicated to a god then we cannot eat of it, i wonder if Halal meat falls under this...

    According to Jews the gazelle and the deer are clean animals but they cannot be offered as sacrifices in the temple but Jews can eat of an animal even though not sacrificed to God... this is what this Rabbi says:

    As you can see, these verses are describing the offering of sacrifices and the consumption of meat. Prior to the building of the Temple in Jerusalem, when an Israelite wanted to eat meat (which usually was only on special occasions), he would offer an animal as a sacrifice to God on his "backyard alter," (במה\במות) and partake of the remainder, thus including God in his meal. (Source.) These verses prohibit the use of "backyard alters" once the Temple has been built. Since sacrifices are restricted to the Temple, if an Israelite wished to eat meat, he no longer has to offer it as a sacrifice. "But whenever you desire, you may slaughter and eat meat..."

    Only ritually "clean" or "purified" Jews who had immersed themselves in the mikvah were allowed in the Temple, whereas ritually impure individuals (such as one who came in contact with a dead body) were prohibited. One might think that only ritually pure individuals would be allowed to eat meat. Verse 15 teaches us that this is not so, "the unclean and clean alike" can eat from the meat.

    Why does the verse mention the gazelle and the deer? Rashi explains that they're mentioned to illustrate that the logical extension of the above holds true. Gazelles and deer, while kosher, are not permitted as sacrifices in the Temple. But since the Israelite no longer has to offer the animal as a sacrifice before eating them, he is now permitted to slaughter and eat the gazelle and deer.

    In Genesis man was not made to eat animals, i guess once out of the Garden then he killed and ate... the words 'clean and unclean' have different meaning than what is commonly perceived, still i am curious as to why God told the Jews specifically what they can eat... can't be just for health reasons.

    i only see Jesus in the Bible eating fish with honey as is recorded, never is there a mention that Christ actually ate of meat even at Passover, though many say it is implied because He observed all Jewish laws. Some 5 years ago i gave up eating all warm blooded animals, i only eat fish because Christ ate fish, and by the way fish with honey is very good, and a Bible diet is supposed to be very healthy...

  2. the vision was because Peter was still clinging to the Law of Moses (circumcision as well) .. and this is why Paul had confronted him .. that as a believer, you are no longer under the law of Moses .. thus Peter by saying "NO LORD" was still thinking He had to observe the Covenant of Law (which Jesus replaced with the covenant of Faith to all that believed in Him and his sacrifice for sins) ..
  3. Can I assume this refers to 1 Cor 8? I don't think it's the intention of this passage to establish such a restriction. It seems like the teaching of this passage is that we should have loving consideration for our brothers and sisters with "weak consciences" over exercising our rights.

    I don't eat red meat either, but for different reasons. In Australia, where I live, it's not sustainable for us to continue to raise herd cattle for food, mostly because of limited fresh water. This is a country that regularly suffers from drought, but we still raise herd cattle not only as a food source for ourselves, but as a major export commodity. It takes 15400 liters of drinking water to produce one kg of beef. There are more environmentally responsible ways for us to get our nutritional requirements.

    I eat quite a lot of fish as well, but mercury levels (especially in predatory fish) and increasingly polluted oceans and waterways are making fish a less viable option for a healthy diet. There are sustainability concerns in some areas as well.

    One possible protein solution is entomophagy (eating insects). Eighty percent of the world's nations already include insects in a socially acceptable diet. You can gut load insects with our full range of nutritional requirements, and insect agriculture is far more sustainable than animal agriculture in terms of water use, land use and pollution.


  4. #4 ixoye_8, Dec 11, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
    good correction Roads .. Paul is saying there is only one God who created all things .. therefore if it was sacrificed to an idol, it has no meaning .. but if it causes a newly converted brother to stumble, don't eat it in front of him .. Jesus himself said, it is not what goes into a mans mouth that defiles him, but what goes into his heart ..

    so if in your heart you are acknowledging another god, then you are in fact breaking the Commandment .. but if you eat it thinking it is only meat, then you do not ..

    the OT did have such a law under the Mosaic law, but was put there because the Hebrews were easily swayed to follow other teachings .. even King David built a pagan temple for his wife ..

    I think Paul should have given the other half of the advice though .. and said, even though you are not recognizing another god, and thus not a sin, if you do do it, it may give opponents of the word a reason to "drag you down" .. not only can it hurt a weak brother, it can hurt you too ..
  5. Yeah, we should always try to consider the possible repercussions of our actions, not just whether or not we have the right or freedom to do it.
  6. Is there a question
  7. There's no reason why anyone can't be a pescetarian or a vegetarian or a vegan. But there's no religious restriction on these things either. I think the only real case against food, going by Christianity anyway since we don't have a restriction in keeping Kosher or Halal, is that we aren't to overindulge as that is gluttony, but that's a different issue.

    I suspect Christ did eat lamb at passover as he was a very religious, committed Jew. It was probably rare (har har) for Him to eat meat as he was poor. The necessities of life were salt, wheat, milk, honey, wine and oil -- meat would have probably been on special occasions.

    It's true that the Bible doesn't document Jesus actually eating meat, but just because it isn't documented doesn't mean it didn't happen. There is still reason to believe he did.

    What's the point of it all though?
  8. Besides liking to talk about scripture, the question was why would God give specific instructions to the Jews as to what they could and could not eat even naming the animals, yet Christ told Peter and all of us that we can eat of all animals no matter what they are... it must not just for health reasons because humans have eaten of animals that are not considered clean and yet live long lives... and circumcision took care of separating the Jews from the Gentiles hence it did not fall on food to separate them also.

    When food is consecrated to a god Paul is eloquent is saying it does not harm us because we don't eat it for its consecration but for the pleasure of it as long as we give thanks to our Lord God ... our conscience though plays a part in this, and we can be as mature in the faith as Peter was and still feel a certain repugnance at eating food consecrated to demons (false gods are demons). In NY many storefronts have signs with 'halal' meat which is meant specifically for the Muslim community, but many Christians and others do go in and buy the meat dishes, to me that sign stops me from going in and purchasing the meat dishes, i will have the salads but not the meat. Do we as Christians who are to be a sign onto others go in and knowing and looking at that flashing sign buy those meat dishes...? Are we not opening ourselves up to accepting the practices of these vendors ...? Isn't that what Paul warned that if a brethren sees us go in it is meant as an acceptance of who they represent and may stumble in their faith... like the sign is saw once on an SUV, it said : "Jesus is in the quoran" read about Him... subtle enticements.

    Paul also speaks at the council of this decision:
    Act15: 19 Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood.
    Acts 15:25 we have decided unanimously to choose representatives and send them to you, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled...

    This is from New Zealand a pastor wrote this:
    Thirty years ago, halal slaughtering became a divisive issue in our nation's sheep and beef slaughter houses. The meat companies had lost their markets in Europe and wanted to expand their sales in the Middle East, so they decided to have all livestock slaughtered using halal practices (the word halal means lawful). I wrote and article called Dangerous Compromise in Meat Industry opposing their actions.

    This was an issue of freedom and liberation. Moslems are free to pray to whoever they wish. They are free to kill their meat in any way they choose, provided it is humane. What they are not entitled to is to force Christian farmers to pay to have a Moslem slaughterman to pray a Moslem prayer over their livestock. Meat companies mostly owned by farmers were forcing their clients to submit to Moslem religious practices. I was very encouraged to read recently that many Southland farmers are still resisting the meat companies that have given in on this issue.

    In supermarkets, mainly the Costco's and Walmarts and other huge chains, today we find in our country more and more meat with subtle titles 'halal', most people do not know it is 'halal' and they buy it, now why is this being pushed on us in our supermarkets...? Not knowing is not a sin to eat it, but it seems there is an effort to make us accept this 'halal' which i am sure most people have no idea what it means ... if business is for overseas then why have this prolific label here in our country? The kosher industry is not shy in making their symbol known, which is fine, and i do go in and buy their products, but i know that kosher food is consecrated to the same God i worship. For lawful (halal) meat in Islam, the animal must be killed while the butcher faces Mecca, and either the butcher cries "Allah Akbar" or a tape plays the words over a loud speaker.
  9. Do you think halal foods are being pushed on people? Claiming the name of a false god does nothing to the food physically or spiritually. Most food items have the branding of (ҡ) as so many of them are Kosher. Companies that cater to Jews and Muslims with dietary restrictions aren't coercing people into other religious practices -- they are merely making sure they can reach a broad clientele.

    There are many non-halal and non-kosher brands/foods that people can eat if they choose. I don't think anything is necessarily being pushed onto anyone.
  10. #10 Roads, Dec 12, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
    The discussion is also continued in 1 Cor 10:

    Since I know the members of my particular church quite well, I am 100% sure that my eating halal meat would not be interpreted as my "acceptance of who they [Muslim shopkeepers] represent." It's a non issue for me since I don't eat red meat anyway, although I don't insist that a host accommodate my choice. As a guest, I eat what is offered to me. However, since many members of my church group are very passionate about social justice, their consciences are more likely to be affected by seeing me eating food or wearing clothes produced by companies known to benefit from, or directly cause, human rights abuses. Where God has guided the passions of the particular people I fellowship with, that's what I concern myself with when I make choices about what I eat or drink.

    That's why Paul doesn't really make a rule book about what you can or can't eat that will apply universally to every culture in every time period. Instead, he teaches this principle: "31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." Keeping this principle in mind, and knowing the particularities of the people and culture we live in, we make a call about what we're going to eat or abstain from, and when we're going to eat it or abstain from it. For example, a person may find it pertinent to avoid going into a shop advertising halal meat, but the same person may not refuse food offered to them if invited to a meal at a Muslim's home.

    If it bothers your conscience, then you shouldn't eat it. However, you do seem to have an understanding that religious ceremony does exactly nothing to food. So if a person is eating their food with a clean conscience, might I suggest, there isn't any reason to try to convince them that what they're doing is wrong.
  11. Right Lysander it is a business decision but maybe there should be a section for halal foods and kosher foods, actually i do think that both Jews and Muslims would probably prefer this... as the article i quoted above is pointing out most likely our farmers are paying for the imam to come in and do his praying over the animal, while loudly chanting Allah akbar, would we not be be upset to see a devil worshiper do his praying over an animal being killed ...? Would we want to see this allowed in order to reach those of this conviction...? While we are close to Jews as we worship the same God we don't follow Islam. Think about it in order for businesses to reach a broader market, which actually percentage wise is really not that big a market, doesn't this practice homogenize us all...?
  12. Thank you Roads but how about Acts 15:19, 25... ;)

    i have not eaten any warm blooded animals since about 5 years ago and not because i don't like it, actually my choice was always the biggest steak on the menu, but made a conscious choice not to, i do eat fish and seafood. When i found out that Pepsi and Nestle uses in all their products AK-293 which is a human embryonic flavor enhancer in their products i stopped buying all their products...:
    "it was revealed that Pepsi had many other options at its disposal to produce flavour chemicals, which is what its competitors do, but had instead chosen to continue using aborted fetal cells -- or as Senomyx deceptively puts it, "isolated human taste receptors."

    A few months later, Pepsi' shareholders filed a resolution petitioning the company to "adopt a corporate policy that recognizes human rights and employs ethical standards which do not involve using the remains of aborted human beings in both private and collaborative research and development agreements." But the U.S. Obama regime shut down this 36-page proposal, deciding instead that Pepsi's used of aborted babies to flavor its beverage products is just business as usual, and not a significant concern.

    Is this practice not the same as consecrating food to idols...

    When i was in college i visited friends living in Tunisia and enjoyed all they offered in both food and hospitality... but today if i visited them again i would let them know of my diet and would only eat vegetable, or when i go out to eat to friends house here they know i do not eat any meat, pig or fowl, hence they usually prepare fish but i always tell them not to as i am happy with all else, as long as it is not cooked with any broth which may have chicken or meat in it...

    Yes, i do understand consciously that eating halal meat does not hurt us, yet, i can't see myself buying that meat and eating it knowing it is consecrated to allah...
  13. Many don't know that Pepsi uses dead babies to flavor their products.
  14. I think you worded that wrong. They test the flavorants on dead babies. They don't put dead babies in pepsi ;).
  15. On pork specifically, perhaps because they are related to us? or ''And the pig, because it has a cloven hoof that is completely split, but will not regurgitate its cud; it is unclean for you.''
  16. Yes, KingJ, but it is still aborted babies...
  17. There is not problem with us eating pigs and God does not hold it as sin against us, the Bible does not specify why God gave this commandment and specified each animal they can and cannot eat... hmmm, don't think pig is related to us :)
  18. One more time................................ Pepsi uses dead babies to flavor their products. Without the dead babies they would not obtain the flavoring compounds they use.

    Wording it in a different way does not mean dead babies are not used to flavor Pepsi products.

    And pigs are related to us? Bacon is good, so................ it's not my fault.
  19. Well one thing that I'm sure we agree on is that scripture doesn't contradict itself, so when we read these two passages, we should accept that they're both communicating truth, and ask how they compliment each other. How do you think they compliment each other? In 1 Corinthians, is Paul contradicting the council's request in Acts? What was the context/intention of the council's request to the gentiles?

    "31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved."

    Whatever decisions you make about what you eat or drink, if you're satisfied that you're following the principles Paul teaches here, then I'm satisfied too.

    I wouldn't try to tempt you to betray your conscience. Would you feel comfortable, though, teaching other Christians that they're doing the wrong thing if they eat halal food? Or would you simply leave them to eat with a clean conscience?
  20. I think that's a fair question.
    Perhaps I'm only playing Devil's advocate, or maybe I'm using a business mindset. It's true that the percentage might seem small in scale--and there are even a lot of millennial Muslims who don't keep halal themselves--but on a wide scale, people inside and outside of Islam wouldn't back away from eating halal.

    Thinking strictly business outside of faith, if I owned a business that produced beefs and sold them, I would very possibly contract an imam to work within the company to make sure the products will reach a wider clientele than just the non-Muslims.

    Would it be a better business move to separate Halal from Kosher to non-Kosher/Halal foods? Probably not. Only going by the patterns of the market, if a food can be within the dietary restrictions (for instance, soda can be, crackers can be, etc. etc....Bacon or meats mixed with dairy, etc, cannot be), then it will most likely be produced to accommodate the clientele.

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