Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by th1bill, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

    Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;

    Gen 3:3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"

    Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

    Gen 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    Suddenly and, seemingly, out of place in the narrative we find Eve in the middle of an ongoing conversation with Satan. The words of Satan, in verse one is, logically, in response to what Eve has said when answering a previous question about the food Eve can eat.

    Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

    Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

    Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden ing the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

    Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

    Gen 3:10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."

    Gen 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

    Some of the passages of scripture are just for our understanding and to cause us to meditate on them. God, because of His foreknowledge, knew, not only where Adam and Eve were but also, everything they had done. God's approach here was for the edification of Adam and Eve and it is for our edification also... if we bother to meditate on and to pray over the passage.

    Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."

    If we never find another reason to relate to the Word of God, surely, we cannot miss this one. From childhood, every one of us knows how to shirk our. Personal, responsibility and so did Adam.
    And it is so important to remember that the command to not eat from the tree of knowledge was given, only to Adam.

    From what I read in this account, I see Adam standing near by when this conversation between Eve and Satan took place. Also, important to note is when did Lucifer, the most beautiful Angel of Heaven become the slithering beast that repels women so much? It is understood, form Isaiah 14, that Lucifer was cast down, because of his pride before the LORD made the Earth habitable for man and from this study of Genesis we will learn that because of his meddling in the affairs of man he is made to crawl over the earth on his belly, reminding us of a snake. Remember though, Lucifer is created a spirit, so, did the Righteous God give him a body, giving him extension in time and space, when He cast him out and down to the Earth?

    Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

    Another great example of our propensity to shirk our personal responsibility.

    Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;

    A thought, worthy to consider, “Is Satan again a spirit or is he one of the trillions of snakes that we find on the surface of the earth?

    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

    This is often noted as the first prophetic passage of the scriptures and, though not named, is the first reference to Jesus in the Bible's text.

    Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

    Equally often missed is the later portion of this verse, “And he will rule over you.” The woman, for her part in this sin was given a very tough penalty. Also, worthy of note is the statement about the increase of pain in childbirth. Had Eve not given birth before being cast out of the Garden this would have meant nothing to her. I would suggest that, any time anyone seeks to push the rediculas thought that Cain got his wife from another tribe or grouping of human beings, bring them to this verse to make the case for the truth that he married one of his cousins or sisters. Just as we are related, by blood line to the women we marry, today, Cain was so to his wife.

    Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

    Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;

    Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

    It upsets many of the unstudied when I tell them that Adam was afraid of losing Eve, so much so that he choose to follow that, extremely, beautiful and desirable female and, thereby, to forsake God but that is exactly what I see Adam doing and as a result we, no longer, are in the Garden living off the land and God's riches.

    Another good point to ponder is our Spiritual Death. Even though Adam did not understand it, he had died, he died spiritually the, very, moment he bit into that Forbidden Fruit of the tree.

    Gen 3:20 Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.

    Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

    Can you see the sacrifice here? They had covered themselves with leaves from a tree but God sacrificed animals to cloak their naked bodies.

    Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

    There was a tree, in the Garden, that Adam had God's permission to eat of before he and his wife sinned, the Tree of Life but they did not partake of it. And now, they must not be allowed Eternal Life without some measure of accountability and the desire to return to the service of God.

    Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

    Gen 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

    I have always found it interesting and, perhaps, meaningful that God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden to the East... into what is known as Iran today and forerly known as Persia. Is this a point, worthy of meditation and prayer to understand?
  2. [QUOTEHad Eve not given birth before being cast out of the Garden this would have meant nothing to her.][/QUOTE]


    Where did that come from???

  3. ??????

    Where did that come from???

    If you go back and reread it in context it means a good deal to most folks. God was meeting out, meaningful, punishment. There is a popular understanding, bleeding out from the New Testament Christian Churches that Eve had no children before Cain and Able and the very thought of this passage kills that idea. Had Eve not given birth, how would she be able to measure the effect of this punishment?

  4. Okay, lets finish this story logically,

    if Eve gave birth to a child before the curse.....,

    then that child didn't/doesn't have a sin nature and know/experience the effects of sin....,

    so, since death comes from sin....,

    then, logically this 6000 year old human is walking on planet earth today (extremely gaunt from hunger, ...'cuz God took away the Tree)....,

    that's means we have to erase Rom 3:23 from our Bibles....,

    and according to Bible typology we need to change Jesus to being the third Adam....,

    and since he/she is sinless if he/she could go to Heaven then we don't need the Word to become flesh because we have human blood that could be a propitiation for mankind....,

    ...I'm sure you can add many more verses that need to be revised to the list from this logical conclusion.

  5. Not so, my friend. Adam was given the command, not to eat of the tree in the middle of the Garden and being the father of all mankind, all fell because of inheritance. It's exactly like the inheritance of my father from his and I from mine. I was not even a thought in my grandfather's imagination when Bill Cody and Zach Taylor murdered all the Mescalero Apache women, children and old folks that remained in camp as Sierra, my grandfather, led the hunting party, in search of meat. I was not there and yet it is a large part of my legacy that my people were forced into a war we refused to join, with the other Apache tribes, because my grandfather was smart enough to know the white man could not be defeated.

    The fact is that, to my shame, my people are on a stupid reservation for crimes committed against them. Their shame is my shame. Adam's children, by birthright, shared Adam's sin. Your assumption, also, ignore the logic I explained in the previous post. All assumed lessons from the scripture must be considered in the light of all scripture. The LORD has taught us that a man's sins will extend into the third and the fourth generations. In light of all the Old Testament, there is no way Adam's children could escape the curse. Remember, God is not made in our image but we in His and for the past six thousand years we have been polluting that image with our ideas of justice.
  6. Sorry Bill, I'm not convinced, ...your argument that the sins of the father are passed on to the third and fourth generation is absolutely correct, but you have the wrong interpretation, we can discuss that later so as not to derail this discussion, let's stick to the subject, did the child born before Adam's sin inherit a sinful nature, using your example, did you grandfather's, grandfather inherit the curse of living on a reservation, of course not, that's illogical, but let's take it even farther back, your ancestors that lived on their land before the white man came, did they inherit the curse of being forced to live on a reservation???

    So then, simple reasoning tells us inheritance can not revert back in time, if you still want to argue this then name me one historical instance of this reasoning, then, if the child was born before the Fall then it is pure because it inherited the purity of Adam and Eve (and if it were true then it would still be alive today according to New Testament doctrine).

    Before responding I humbly suggest you jump forward to Chapter 4 and study the significance of the names Eve gave to her firstborn and then her second, that will explain and clear up this matter of if there was a child born before the fall,

    ...and you've opened a Pandora's box, if and I'm saying if, not conceding the point, if there was a human that was without a sinful nature, then God could of killed the child and used it's blood to redeem Adam and Eve, that way not having to send His own Son to be tortured and then crucified on a cross, ...what I wrote in post #4 still has not been disproved.

  7. Gene,
    You would not know it except you think seriously about what I posted in the last post, my great grandfather was murdered in the raid led by General Taylor. However, had he not been murdered, yes, he would have been forced to live the remainder of his life on that, smelly, reservation in New Mexico and off the native lands in Texas.

    You seem determined to mold God into the image of man but that will not work. God's nature is revealed in the first 39 books of the Christian Bible, the Bible Jesus taught from. And when the father of all men sinned, death, through sin, entered into the human race. You just cannot inject what the scriptures will not and does not support. It does not matter when a child was born, they w0ore the blemish just as we do. By your logic, if a child is born in deep Africa, they are not ever going to sin the sins I did and for that reason should be less likely to go to Hell. But Romans 3 teaches us that this is not true. It says in Romans that Adam sinned and all his offspring were, therefore, sinners.

    I believe, strongly, in the use of a Study Bible with Center References because it clearly demonstrates what I teach about the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments causing it to be more easily understood why there is no theology based in the New Testament. I always, even to pastors, teach that the Bible, the Word of God, is the first thirty-nine books and the following or last twenty-seven are the only, God ordained, commentary on the Bible. In these past twenty or so years, none have, after praying and considering the matter, challenged my position.

    There is a very important matter to consider here that is taught by former Prof. Bob Utely and before I knew he did, by me; God, through the leading of the Holy Spirit, teaches each of us what we need to know. Because they are different does not make one wrong and one right unless one cannot e supported by scripture. Even then, if there is not a direct conflict with scripture, caution is wise.
  8. Bill, with all due respect, I'm not trying to do anything, you are the one trying to mold the Word fit your opinion, it doesn't matter what happened to your grandfather, or what tools you use to study the Word, or what men of God you listen to, the fact of the matter is you are wrong, you are adding to the Word, and so outlandishly that it isn't the tiniest bit credible because it negates so many Church doctrines that you say you believe, not to mention in the 27 years I've been walking with the Lord I've never heard anything so foolish.

    If you want to continue on with this discussion stop bragging about yourself and give us a historical example of when an inheritance reverted back to the predecessors, why, the very definition of the word inheritance refutes your claim! I used the example of your ancestors to show you how ridiculous it is, ...can't you see that?

  9. Gene,
    I'm sorry you have taken this stance but I have assumed nothing. I use a tried and time proven Hermeneutics with prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit, You have yet to use scripture to establish your position and I never use anything but the Bible to learn and to teach from. Prof. Utley is not my leader, he is my brother in the Christ, just as I hope you are.

    I have made my case on what God has written and have prayed for God to reveal to me if I am wrong but all God has done is to confirm, through the Holy Spirit, that what I have taught here, aligns with His Word. As I have always taught, as I do now, that, until our LORD returns, the scriptures are our Final Court of Arbitration.

    It is not a requirement that you agree with my position for us to be brothers in the Christ. God has left room for differences to exist in His Word and I find it sad that you, seem to want to, follow this to a verbal contest, where there must be a victor. God is the "only" winner and we must learn that truth.
  10. Yes Bill, I too agree that we are brothers in Christ and the unity of the faith is kept by loving one another with the love of Christ in our heart, but I'm sure you will agree it's not the type of wishy-washy love found permeating the Church that won't confront any seeker friendly false teaching, so there is a time and place for correction, ...just as Paul withstood Peter to his face and he also named false teachers, then I too must stand up and speak the Truth in love for the Truth in this matter, you ask me to give Scripture to prove my point, I've already given a few Scriptures references to prove you are wrong, didn't you read them, besides, I don't have to prove my point, you are the one introducing your opinion and we are waiting for you to give us Scriptural proof, that Eve gave birth to a child before the Curse, to prove what you are saying, ...I'm not interested in your Hermetical abilities, or your prayer or guidance from the Holy Spirit, you are touting your credentials and I'm not interested in them either, say you use only the Bible to teach from,

    ...then no more blah-blah, your next post will be short and concise, consisting of book, chapter and verse, nothing else, no prideful diatribe about your abilities, ...if you can't provide that then it looks like this one is just your opinion and everybody has opinions, that doesn't mean it's Biblical Truth and we'll move on to the other opinions you have expressed in this thread, for the sake of the young, and the weak in faith, in Christ, as to not cause them to stumble (which I'm certain is your desire too).

    James 3:1

    In His Love,

  11. Gene,
    You already have the scriptures at the beginning of this string and that ends this.
  12. I just rescanned the string and other than the crazy assertion that we toss Rom. 3:23 from the Bible, based on your feelings, you have not used scripture to make your case Gene. You have progressively become more and more antagonist but in no manner using the Bible as the Last Court of Arbitration.
  13. So then, since you can't come up with a specific verse in the Bible you use that tells us Eve gave birth before the curse then it's safe to assume this is just you opinion and isn't a part of the inspired Word of God.

    Isn't if funny when we ask someone to prove from Scripture their opinions they always throw in the antagonist card and try to make us the bad guy, ...give me a break.

    Bill, I'm not being antagonist, I'm following Scripture to test all things and hold on to what is good 1Thess 5:21 and Acts 17:11 where the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to tell us to search the Scriptures to see if it's true, which, as a Child of God I'm doing and since you can't give me a verse, you're right, ...this is the end of this false teaching.

    Now, satan is slithering around in some snake some where???

    What does the inspired Word of God tell us,

    And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan (the signification of the name Satan is - accuser Strong's # G4567), who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser
    (the meaning of this word is a plaintiff, hence it's satan) of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. Rev 12:9, 10

    So folks, is the devil in a serpent some where on the planet, or is he standing before our God (the Father and Lord Jesus because they are both sitting on the same throne) accusing us 24/7 in modern day lingo.

    And then there's,

    "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation"

    Again, another verse taken out of context,

    You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I Jehovah your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me, Ex 20:5

    ...the penalty is placed upon who?

    You shall not make to yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Ex 20:4

    Those that make a graven image and them that bow down to the image and serve the image, God says the people that do this hate Him, hence the punishment is just, ...however, God always writes in an escape clause,

    ...and showing mercy to thousands of those that love Me and keep My commandments (now that's my God). Ex 20:6

    So if a man might have been a father guilty of making a graven image, and teaching his children to bow down and serve it, if he should repent, turn to the True and Lliving God then the curse is lifted off of the children to the third and fourth generation (why the third and fourth generation, because men lived (Moses died at 120 years De 31:2) this long to influence his patriarchal authority over his family, if a first generation son should turn to the True and Living God then the curse would be lifted off of him and his children, same with a son of the third or fourth generation, ...if you think about it, how many of us were in this situation and God showed His Mercy towards us and in His Grace illuminated our dead and darken souls?

    Also tied in with this is if a man is living in sin he will not teach his children about his sin, they will see the sin of the father and assume it's a normal lifestyle, hence, let's say he is a thief, because there isn't any teaching against stealing his children will become thieves also, ...the sin of the father being passed on(visited) to his children.

    James 3:1

    In His Love,

  14. Are you finished being the winner?
  15. ?????????

    Bill, dear brother and friend, you started this thread under the subject of Bible Study, when asked a question rather than answering it you stand on your credentials?

    Do I/we not have the right to follow inspired Scripture and test what you are teaching, Acts 17:11?

    Or are we just to believe it because you said it, ...would you grant me the same right (I certainly hope not)?

    Bill I too am a Bible teacher, prophesied over as to what spiritual gifts the Holy Spirit was giving me and then a few years later the elders layed hands on me for the power of the Holy Spirit to empower His gift in the ministry He has given me. Before the laying on of hands I tried teaching without the power of the Holy Spirit and God bless those dear saints that put up with my opinions, many a time I had to admit it was my logic and not the Holy Spirit inspiring His gift, it was during that time I learned about James 3:1, and boy was my teaching being judged, then with the power of the Holy Spirit empowering His gift,'s a whole different ballgame, I have found in studying the verses we'll be teaching I gather the facts and He puts it all together, ...when it's teaching in the power of the Spirit people will come up to you and ask who told you about my problem, or how did you know what was going on in my life, I have no idea what they are talking about, so I tell them it wasn't me, but God speaking to them, ...and it's never me, it's always the Holy Spirit teaching, I'm just His vessel, His mouth piece.

    So you see Bill, the Holy Spirit inside of every born again Child of God is either telling them it's true, it's true, that's Me teaching, or He is giving us a warning, that's not Me teaching, be careful, don't receive that, it's what Paul is talking about the Holy Spirit being a witness in us, ...but a Child of God has to learn His voice, ...or they have silenced His voice because of pride and/or disbelief, ...that is why we find written at the end of the seven letters written to the seven Churches,

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Don't you agree we are all winners, everyone that is born again, ...going to spend Eternity in Heaven with Jesus?

    In His Love,

  16. Gene,
    In all of this post I can find nothing the Spirit in me argues with. At the same time I have been given the understanding I have expressed in the OP and all of the following posts of mine. Before I was called of God I knew that there were many, individual, perspectives that, though different, they never disagree on the basics. You have assumed I am introducing some new theological point and nothing could be further from the truth.

    My notes on the Bible are Talking points and nothing more than that, notes for discussion, hopefully causing other to read, examine and to meditate on what they have read. I do not come here, nor, do I teach in Church for any other reason than to inspire consideration of God's Word. My statements are driven by the same Spirit that dwells in both of us and when we fight, it is not of the Spirit. You might be more correct than me, I know not, but until My prayer for exposure, if I'm wrong by the Holy Ghost, I'll not change my point of view. What I said that Eve, logically, had children before the fall because of Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, even in seventeenth century English, the pronouncement had zero meaning if she had not already bore, at least one child.

    You seamed so angry that I chose to attempt to cool this down but now, I pray, you see the logic I imposed on the reading of this chapter.

    May God bless us both because we have been called to respond in spite of the James passage.

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